First ever trip to Europe/Germany -itinerary help please

You have a big wish list seemingly built from Rick Steves' guidebook but not yet a feasible itinerary - too many places for your time - and not necessarily the most desirable itinerary for the "we" who will be traveling. I see there's an interest in cars - and in wine - but if you have any other activities or interests in mind, it would be helpful if you shared them so that your destinations can be tweaked into a plan. I would also consult OTHER guide books. Rick's are somewhat limited by his own personal preferences.

Driving on the Autobahn isn't much of a thrill. Danged speed limits nearly everywhere it seems, heh. At times it's a parking lot.

Have you considered this? Many car enthusiasts do. It's not far from Burg Eltz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring

Not far from Burg Eltz are the Mosel vineyards, where you can hike and bike (or take a scenic train ride) and there are plenty of winemakers who will give you a room and share their wares - here are a couple of them in Cochem:

http://www.weingut-rademacher.de/en/
https://www.elfriede-fuhrmann.de/english.htm

Flying out of Frankfurt does not mean you have to stay there. Frankfurt makes for an inconvenient base town if you want to see the Rhine and the Mosel. There are nice old-world towns to stay in on the Rhine and direct trains from some of the Rhine towns to FRA airport. Do you have a departure flight time? You can probably stay in a Rhine town close to FRA on your last night and still get to the airport easily without a car and without overnighting at the airport. (Less than 2 nights in the Rhine/Mosel region is a travel offense that should be punishable, heh, so plan accordingly.)

Your trip covers a LOT of territory right now, and that would mean a lot of driving. I'd look into German Rail pass options for most of your trip (except for any specific places or periods you just want to be driving around.) The GRP covers Salzburg and the train line to Reutte as well.

STOP. Do not book your flights yet. Once you book flights, mistakes are locked in and may be very expensive to fix. Before you book flights, you need to do more/better planning.

First: I believe it's a serious mistake to go to Europe for just 10-12 days. Yes, I understand we all have constraints, but the best favor you can do yourself is to extend your trip by at least a few more days, preferably another week if there's any way you can pull that off.

Your flight to Europe will be an overnight redeye. You will arrive there jetlagged, exhausted from all the pre-trip stress and last minute tasks, and you probably won't get any sleep on the plane. With all the stuff you need to do to get ready for a flight, it's not unusual to start your trip already short on sleep, then you arrive a wreck. Your arrival day is spent in a fog, just wishing you could go hit the sack (but you shouldn't until after dinner). For many folks, even the next day - the first usable day of your trip - you're still not quite feeling your best. Your departure day is also spent entirely on getting to your flight. So, you can not and should not count your arrival day nor your departure day, no matter what time the flights are.

Your "10-12 day trip" actually gives you no more than 8-10 full, usable days on the ground in Europe. If you don't recover quickly from the "geospatial displacement trauma™" you might be looking at even one day less - go all the way to Europe and just have 7 days there? Verrückt!

Unless you can afford to fly to Europe very often and will go any time you want (lucky you) then you're not getting enough "days there" for the considerable cost of your flights. And you will certainly wish you had more time there to include more destinations, activities and fun (most first-time travelers try to squeeze in way too many places anyway).

OK, off that soapbox. Work on finding more days to be there, then you can start fine-tuning your itinerary. But find more days first.

So, don't go to Europe for such a short time. Extend your trip to a more reasonable duration.

Personally, I've been lucky enough to go to Europe fairly frequently. But I don't think it's worth going all that way unless I have at least 2 full weeks on the ground (not counting travel days) - and I travel pretty efficiently. You, as a first time vistor, will be anything but efficient - you will be disoriented at times, occasionally confused by how things work, you will get lost or at least need more time to get to places and accomplish simple tasks. 8 days in Europe is too short a trip. 14 or 18 days there (not counting travel) will give you a much, much better experience.

Thanks for you reply. It is a lot to cover in one trip so we (my husband and myself) are trying to decide how to best tackle this. The only interest in cars is the AMG factory in Affalterbach. We are interested in castles, scenery, breweries, Rhine river cruise and the places I listed in Salzburg and in Munich. Do you have any guide book suggestions? You are right - I'm reading Rick's book and want to see everything. Having a very hard time narrowing it down to a manageable trip. That's why I'm asking for help from those that have been there.

If your husband is dead keen on driving the Autobahn please help us lower his expectation. It is a far better thing to contemplate than to actually do.

Jayne, you don't say where you are from, not even a country, so it is difficult to share examples.

Maybe Canadian, and you will know the 401. Maybe from California and you will know the 405 over Sepulveda Pass. Maybe near pretty much any interstate in the lower 48. If so, that is the autobahn experience.

Except. Autobahns have construction zones. A lot. Really a lot. They have 80 kph to 60 kph speed areas and the occasional speed camera. And narrow lanes. Really narrow. And one of the lanes is full of trucks using all of their lane, and maybe a bit of yours. And they aren't straight. And often the roadwork zones are long. Sometimes as long as 12 to 20 km. Or you end one and 10 km later there's another. It keeps people in work.

Except. Much of the Autobahn system has no limits for stretches. But where you are it will have a maximum of only 130 kph (same speed as France) or lower. It is just the way it is. It frustrates me. I have to drive there a lot. I now often take French autoroutes if nearly the same distance - less fristrating.

Autobahns usually have only 2 lanes each way. One full of the aforementioned trucks and slow drivers, the other kept free for the high speed Audis and BMWs. The reason they fly along in the left lane is because not only do they have huge gas guzzling engines they also have monster brakes so when the traffic suddenly stops with zero warning at all they can stop too without running into the back of the car in front. Look up the word "Stau". And I've seen some really horrific crashes. And waited in some horrific backups. The law is if the traffic stops it must make a path for emergency vehicles by peeling off to the far left and far right of the road so the flashing light crowd goes down the middle. The edges of the autobahn are kept pretty clean so when you have to do that - you probably will - you are still on a decent surface. When you are stopped a long time you should shut off your engine.

And except. If you are going to indulge his fantasy, go ahead. But don't do it near Stuttgart. Stuttgart is absolutely renowned as having some of the worst traffic in the country. To the east is the very windy, very steep, very low speed Teck valley, with lots of trucks, low speed limits, and great views - for the passenger. To the west is the urban density of Ludwigshafen, Hockenheim, Speyer and all them. No high speeds there. To the south is the very short stretch to Tübingen. By the time you are getting up to speed you have arrived. To the north there is just plain a lot of traffic. Sometimes adds half an hour to the journey.

On the other hand - if you are in Stuttgart anyway there is a good tour guide there who we see here from time to time, and my favourite car wash in the entire world is there - Mr.Wash.

I don't want to pop his dream but you do need to know the reality.

"We are thinking we need a car for the Fussen area and for Stuttgart to get to the AMG factory - but you may know better!"

A car will save you time on a tight trip for Füssen. You might rent one in Munich and then drop it in Füssen when done driving around. But you can reach Affalterbach (AMG) in about 25 minutes from Ludwigsburg using local transportation. You don't need a night in Stuttgart proper, really. Ludwigsburg (near Stuttgart, served by train) might be a good 1-night stop for getting off the train between the Alps and the Rhine. Figure about 4 hours from Füssen.

The Black Forest and the Romantic Road (which you left in Füssen) aren't very reasonable outings from the Affalterbach/Ludwigsburg area but many nice places are right there, including...

• Besigheim. It is only 13 train minutes to the lovely medieval wine town. Leaf through the Fotogalerie!
• Ludwigsburg Palace is dazzling.

"Having a very hard time narrowing it down to a manageable trip. That's why I'm asking for help from those that have been there."

You have time to narrow it down yourselves but if you prefer I'll share my suggestions and will give you the same advice that I would give my very best friends...

4 nights in Munich with 1 (long) day trip by train to Salzburg. The Eagle's nest isn't in Salzburg (scratch.) (I can't speak to strudel classes or SOM tours.)

2 nights Füssen area (rent in Munich.) N'stein isn't a genuine castle and the 30-minute tour is over-touristed, overpriced and overrated (scratch.) Reutte is a complete waste of time (scratch.)

Rothenburg is off your travel trajectory and in the "N'stein" category of tourist beehives - lots of great old world towns elsewhere (scratch.) Even Rick, who recommends it, says it's approaching "medieval theme park" status - not surprising really, as the only jobs in town involve serving tourists.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4655367309_423f3e924b_b.jpg
https://www.frankenfernsehen.tv/storage/thumbs/1200x630c/r:1475156718/95171.jpg

1 night in Ludwigsburg (take the train there, see above.)

Heidelberg is OK but the Rhine castles are more impressive (scratch)

3 nights in the Rhine/Mosel region (train from Ludwigsburg.) Make old-world Boppard your base town for train outings to the Mosel River towns and Burg Eltz AND the Rhine towns (Bacharach, St. Goar, Oberwesel.) Marksburg Castle is a good alternative to Eltz and closer to Boppard. From Ludwigsburg take the train to Bingen and cruise from there (probably the 14:30 cruise) to Boppard (2.3 hours) - a great way to enter the Rhine Valley on your first day there.

If you have an early flight out after night #10 you can spend 2 nights in Boppard and on your final Rhine day catch a pm train to MAINZ, only 25 minutes and €5 from FRA airport by direct train.

(If it turns out you have 11 nights, then reconsider Salzburg as a day trip and do 2 nights there, 3 in Munich.)

"That's why I'm asking for help from those that have been there." Even those of us (like me) who have been there many, many times will not speak with one voice. You should expect a lot of different answers that you will still have to sort through.

Hi,

Nothing wrong with going to Europe for 11 or 12 full days. It can be done, just be sure to pace yourself. I would focus with that time span three towns.cities at most. You arrive at 8 am in MUC, stay the day in Munich, see the sights you plan on, go to Salzburg the next day early to give yourself the entire day.

If you arrive at the hotel prior to the official check-in, usually at 2 or 3 pm, the hotel usually holds the luggage and tells you to come back after 3 pm. Or, if your room was not used the night before, you can check in and access the room. That has been my experience in Germany and Austria, be it a Pension or a 3 star hotel. You just might luck out in that regard. Keep in mind that not every one gets jetlag, unless you know for sure that you will.

When you are in Frankfurt, don't look for wine. Frankfurt's drink is hard cider, and it is available in all the bars and taverns. The food of Frankfurt is "Grüne Sosse/Soße", or green sauce, made with 7 specific herbs (some of which I had never heard of before), often served on boiled potatoes. My wife became entirely obsessed with curry-wurst, which is not what you call haute cousine, but is fun and not expensive. We did find a great street wine fest there.

A forum regular, Ms Jo, does tours of Frankfurt. It is a charming town, with a lot of sights. We enjoyed the Archeological Museum. The Cathedral was used to crown the Holy Roman Emperor for many years.

Look at Russ' itinerary. It's a good start. Remember, don't switch bases too often. If you are in Germany for 12 days, I would stay in 3 places.

Drop Salzburg. Munich is huge. So much to do there.

As to the "you won't get any sleep on the plane" - nonsense. What I do is have a nice airline meal (really, the food is not bad), and several glasses of wine. At this point it is 2 AM or so EST. The plane is filled with sleeping people. I close my eyes and get about 1-2 hours of sleep. It's not a full night's rest, but it is enough sleep to function the next day. Yes, I am tired, but we go to our hotel, dump our stuff, and go out. To conquer jet lag, get right into the time period of your landing zone. Of course, sitting in a seminar for 4 hours is not a good idea. Nor is driving immediately. Rather, going out and having a walk, and then a nice dinner, is the best approach. After that, you will be tired and sleep well. When you awaken the next morning, you will be ready to have a great vacation time.

Wow! Thanks you for all the advice! We live in Texas. Keep the advice coming. We will rework our itinerary based in your suggestions.

As to driving, we've driven in Germany. Generally, it's fine. It's fun. But it's different than the US. Sure, plan on driving. But to have a really German experience, the train is the way to go. Plus there are many many buses which go to the places that the trains do not go to.

As to luggage, many of the train stations have lots of storage lockers which are inexpensive. While they may fill up, we have never looked for a locker and found all taken up. They are easy to use. You take the train to your destination, and if you are just stopping for the day, store your stuff in a locker. Then when you return to catch the next train, you have your luggage right there.

All DB (Deutsches Bahn) stations have a desk to help travelers. I have never had a problem finding English speakers. They are very helpful and assist the clueless traveler in buying tickets and finding cheap fares.

On our last trip, we went from Frankfurt to Heidelberg on the Flixbus. We walked from the bus station to the castle. Then we walked back and took the bus back to Frankfurt. Easy, inexpensive, quick. No traffic tickets.

We just returned from a very similar trip- driving and loved it. We did pack in a lot, and while it worked for us I would not add any more. We had a major air delay and lost about 8 hours of our Rhine Valley time on our first sightseeing day, and had more one night stays than I wanted but it actually worked out fine. Here is our basic allocation of days-
Day 1- Flew into Frankfurt (late), slept Assamanhausen
Day 2- KD Cruise, Marksburg and Rheinfels Castles, slept St Goar
Day 3- Burg Eltz, wandered down Mosel Valley, slept Cochem
Day 4- Lunch and short walking tour in Heidelberg, drove to Rothenberg ODT in time for dinner and Imperial City torchlight procession.
Day 5- Rothenberg until early afternoon, Drove to Bamberg (mistake, too much), dinner and night in Nuremberg
Day 6- Nuremberg
Day 6- Drove toward Fuessen, Lunch and walk in Oberammergau, Weiskirche, Linderhof. Slept Schwangau
Day 7- Toured 2 castles. Took Combination of Autobahn and Deutsche Alpenstrasse toward Berchtesgaden but not all the way. Stopped in some pretty towns whenever we felt like it. Slept Rosenheim just because it was convenient.
Day 8- Deutsche Alpenstrasse to Berchtesgaden (beautiful), toured Eagles Nest and Obersalzberg area, on to Salzburg
Day 9, 10, 11- Salzburg and area, including day trip to Hallstadt
Day 12, 13, 14- Munich, flew home

There is a good bit of construction on the Autobahn, seemingly everywhere.
Hope this helps!

Thanks so much! Sounds like a great trip!