Europe planning help 2016

As far as order, I think I would do Germany, then Austria, then Croatia and end in Venice. I think it would be a shame to get all the way to Croatia and not go to Split, Dubrovnik and an island or two though.

How long is an "extended vacation?"

How long do you want to spend in each place? For instance, are you going to Munich to be close to Dachau or do you want to spend time seeing Munich? How long do you want to spend at Plitvice Lake? Do you want to visit sights and towns along the way? What are your group's interests?

Use viamichelin.com to estimate driving times and costs. The driving times do not include pit stops, heavy traffic, other delays. You'll need a car large enough to accommodate all 4 of you comfortably on those long drives and with enough luggage space to hold all your stuff out of sight (never leave items visible in a parked car). It's not easy to drive in the cities and parking is often scarce and expensive. You will pay daily for renting and parking the car during your city stays while not using it.

Eagle's Nest is easy as a day trip by bus from Salzburg. The order you have looks fine, though I haven't been to Croatia or Slovenia. Munich to Fussen to Salzburg is easily done by train. From FussenYou can visit the castles by bus or bikes (you can rent them in Fussen) .

Indeed you have lots of time to think this all through and plan.

"There will be 4 of us, thinking of renting a car to be more mobile and save money."

I do a lot of €-pinching when I plan my trips; a car is often the default strategy for people like us, but it doesn't normally work out to be cheaper than other options, and it often wastes your time. You don't need or want one for getting to or seeing Vienna! You cannot drive to the Eagles Nest. You may find one necessary for a day here or there, however, like for Hochosterwitz - I have no idea about getting there. Plitvice is a car trip or bus trip but there are also day tours there and back. Flying into Split (and perhaps Venice) makes more sense to me than spending a whole lot of hours on the road; Split is a delightful place to visit, btw (so is nearby Trogir, which is even closer to Split's airport than Split is.)

"I realize this is a big wish list..."

Travel is about dreaming big. In your case you've provided no clues for how much time is involved, so there's no way to know if it's too big or not big enough, or to even contemplate the logistics. How much time DO you have?

I interpret your statement that you "would like to try Germany" to mean that you'd like to get to know it a bit. Well, that's unlikely to happen with the plans you have. Consider what you have laid out... Dachau and the Eagle's Nest? You'll learn about Germany's darkest, darkest hour, but that's just a horrible approach, IMO. What if visitors to America chose to see only the Wounded Knee Massacre Memorial and the Whitney Plantation slavery museum? That's right, the nightmarish stuff is only a tiny slice of the pie, and maybe one you might overlook altogether on a short visit. Also, you want to "...see castles, Neuscwhanstein, Hoherschegn, Ehrenberg..." N'stein and Hohenschwangau (I think that's what you mean) are palaces, not castles, and Ehrenburg is in ruins. There's nothing wrong with going to these places but IMO they are overrated and over-visited and quite saturated with tour buses, international tourists, and all the tourist trappings that go along with them.

The German Alps are attractive in the Füssen area, but of the two places you've chosen to go, I'd MUCH rather spend some time in the Berchtesgaden area where the scenery is more spectacular and you don't feel quite as much like a cog in the tourist machine.

The Königssee (Berchtesgaden)

And if you want to see one of Ludwig's palaces, Herrenchiemsee might be more enjoyable - it's only an hour from Salzburg, on this island in Lake Chiemsee and from MUC airport, it's on your way to Berchtesgaden too.

Herrenchiemsee
H'chiemsee information

Germany does have a good number of interesting places to visit, including some old-world towns and villages, where you can get a feel for the history, the people, and the culture. But it's hard to suggest anything without knowing your time parameters.

Thank you SO much for all the good advice, I need to clarify a few things. First, we are thinking a minimum of 3 weeks, possibly 4. So, I am hoping that we would have enough time to visit each of the towns listed, but, trying to figure an order. We chose Munich because we thought it would be easier to get air in to a big city and we planned to leave from a different city. We have more than enough miles to get free tickets, so, we are going to book air this year to get us all on the same plane, per a recommendation we had.

Just starting the planning process now, actually meeting this weekend with a giant map. We want to take each leg of the trip, determine transportation between towns and get a good idea of how much time we will need. We plan to take only a carry-on and go with the Rick Steve's "travel light" approach, so we can stay mobile. We are going to be reserving some things on Air B&B and looking into some of Rick's suggestions for places to stay.

Driving is a concern, non of us speak German, but, plan to buy a GPS here - pre loaded with the areas we want to go to.
We are open to using all forms of transportation, Car, Train and flying into some cities. Figured we would have to take the ferry over to Croatia?

We realize we may have to eliminate some things. Going to that area, we had planned to go to a concentration camp, but, also are planning to see many of the other good things about Germany. So far, we have been going by Rick's videos and books for suggestions.

We thought that if we had a car we could stop when we wanted to and get out to places that that railway wouldn't go, but, maybe, that's not a good idea for some legs of the trip?

Rent the car in Austria. You will be charged an exorbitant rate if you rent in one country and drop in another. A car rented in Austria will come with a vignette for Austria. Check out vignette requirements for Slovenia and Croatia, don't know about them. Also you need to inform the rental company at the time of reserving that you intend to drive in Slovenia and Croatia. Get International Drivers Permits for all drivers.
And you do realize in Venice, that car will be sitting in an expensive parking garage (but at least it won't be burning any $8/gallon gas).

"We plan to take only a carry-on and go with the Rick Steve's "travel light" approach, so we can stay mobile."
This is Rick's most important contribution to the modern traveler. Good choice. Obey his packing Bible.

"So far, we have been going by Rick's videos and books for suggestions."
Consider them just that - suggestions. Sadly, Rick's "back-door" philosophy doesn't drive his book suggestions, which tend to drag folks to some extremely overrun places "where the menus are always in English."

You might consider flying into Frankfurt instead. Between Frankfurt and Munich are some of Bavaria's true gems and places that experience a much smaller tourist impact - and many of them are UNESCO World Heritage sites. I would encourage you to investigate them as you prepare for your meeting:

Bamberg (UNESCO WH)
Nuremberg
Bad Windsheim's Open Land Museum
Iphofen (check these photos at this German site.)
Würzburg (UNESCO WH)
Regensburg (UNESCO WH)
Marktbreit

On the issue of language, by the way, Germany is one of the very best places to visit if you don't know the language - many, many Germans speak better English than the average American, I'm sorry to say.

I agree with renting the car in Austria (Salzburg or Innsbuck), if you plan to drop it in Austria. A car is the easier way to get between Venice, Slovenia, and Croatia. While I wouldn't push you to make a long drive to Split and Dubrovnik (which I also have not seen, since they've never been convenient), I do think you'll want a stop on the northern Croatian coast, in addition to Plitvice.

Look at some other sources than Rick Steves for sample itineraries. I would also check out a few trip reports at Bavaria Ben's website - www.bensbauernhof.com

I really like your plan, and it is entirely doable, especially if you can stretch it to four weeks. Three weeks would be tight- you would feel rushed to get all the dots connected, with some long gaps between some of them. Munich and Vienna are two of my favourite cities in Europe, and make good bookends for your trip. Speaking of Munich, you say you will be traveling next September. Is Oktoberfest (Sept 17 to Oct 3) within your timeframe? Whether you want to visit it, or avoid it, if you are traveling at that time, you need to account for it.

Having seen most on your wish list, other than Halstatt and Hochosterwitz, and assuming you clear Munich before Sept 17, here's what I would recommend:
Arrive in Munich; stay 4 nights, including day trips to Dachau and Neuschwanstein/Schwangau. On a shortened itinerary, you could cut out a night in Munich, but four gives you a really good chance to settle in to Europe. I'd skip Ehrenburg; it's a nice site to hike to if you're staying in Fussen or Reutte for a few days, but not something to make a destination itself. Good views, weather permitting, but you'll have far better views latter on in your trip, and the castle itself is mostly rubble. Consider one of the many bus tours to Neus...ein. Most include one or two other stops, such as Weisskirche, to fill out the day. It's also possible by train or car, but why bother.
From Munich, train to Salzburg. Either stay 3 or 4 nights, with day trips (by car) to Berchtesgaden and Halstatt, or split the nights between Salzburg and Halstatt. All things considered, car rental from Salzburg to Vienna is likely your best option, even if it will sit idle while you're in Venice. Just make sure the rental company knows you will be traveling in Italy, Croatia and Slovenia.
Halstatt to Venice is a long drive, but possible. There's plenty of scenery along the way. Leave the (empty) car in Mestre, and take the short train ride to Venice. It will be late when you arrive, so 3 nights will give you two full days to visit.
From there, I agree with Laura about stopping along the northern Adriatic on the way to Plitvice- consider Rovinj, Pula or Trieste for a night or two. Bear in mind that, as it stands now, you pass through passport controls entering and leaving Croatia, as it is not a Schengen country.
As it will take some time to get to, you'll probably need two nights to visit Plitvice, with a full day to spend in the park.

With an early start the morning after Plitvice, you will have time for a visit to the Skocjan caves on the way to Lake Bled. Stay in Lake Bled for 3 or 4 nights, with a day trip into Ljubljana. Visit Hochosterwitz on the way from Bled to Vienna. Spend at least 4 nights in Vienna, and fly home from there. There's room in this itinerary to add a night to some stops if you have a full four weeks, which is a good situation.

Happy planning!

I caution you against using Rick's books to plan your trip. They make a great starting point but really only touch on cities and some of the larger, more touristed sights. There are A LOT of gaps and you will miss some pretty amazing things if you us only them. I use several books when planning our trips and make a lot of notes from this forum and websites that I take along in a separate document. We have had a lot of luck with some of his hotel and restaurant suggestions, so hang on to his books for that too.

Personally, I would choose to rent a car for much of this trip. I almost always prefer to have a car in Bavaria and Austria. You will have to figure out how your logistics work with picking up and dropping off the car since it is so expensive to drop off in a different country. Cars are a hassle and expensive in cities so try to avoid having one on Munich, Vienna and Venice if you can. Your best bet is to figure out your basic itinerary first and then see what type of transportation works best for each stage of the trip.

You've already received a lot of good tips.
I would start with planning the car rental. How are the conditions of the companies you want to book. How high are the costs of a one-way rental. Is it permissible to drive with the rental car to Croatia. Can you share the journey in two blocks? A South German and a Vienna / Croatia part?

Thank you to everyone that replied to me on this, you have all been very helpful. We had a planning meeting this weekend and made some changes and came up with a "tentative" schedule. At this point, we are thinking we will need about 23 to 25 days, realizing that this will be a quick pace, we may still have to eliminate some things or add a few days. Now we need to determine transportation between the cities and sights we want to see. We do plan to send an itinerary in to the Rick Steves travel service to see what they come up with, but, I appreciate any input on this forum just as much!

Fly in to Frankfurt or Munich ( depending on what becomes available). We are planning to get tickets with air miles, going to try booking as soon as they are available, I think it's about 330 days from your planned departure.

Munich/Fussen area for 4 days to see the city (Oktoberfest) Castles and Dachau, Eagles Nest
Probably use the trains for this part of the trip?

Rent a car in Salsburg or Vienna so we can pick up and drop off in the same country?

Salsburg 3 days, interested in history and composers.
Vienna 3 days
Budapest 3 days
Zagreb/Plitvise National park 2 days

Ljubljana & Lake Bled 2 days
Slovenia 2 days - Julian Alps (Get up to Klagenfurt to return car, possibly? to keep the cost down from dropping in a different country.

Need to see if there is a train connection for the last two stops, or would it be best to get into Italy and rent another car
Triest 2 Days
Venice 2 Days - Fly out of the Marco Polo Airport.

Too much driving IMO. That is, if the rental company you intend to use even permits travel in the countries you plan to visit. Better check on that.

Your plan for the 4 days in Germany aren't what I'd recommend to my best friends. Munich's an overcrowded and overpriced zoo at Oktoberfest for someone with budget concerns, The WW II stuff you have in mind is not a great intro to the country - when you have just 4 days, IMO, you don't fill them with the very ugly but brief blip on the screen of history that Nazism represents. Germany's a lot more interesting than that. The "castles" you've chosen aren't castles but more modern palaces - N'stein being a late 19th-century palace - and they are typically overrun with tour buses and international tourists - not a great place to learn about Germany or its people.

Of the places you've named, Berchtesgaden is the most "German," the most scenic, and might have the most economical lodging and transport options. It is also very close to Salzburg. If it were my trip I'd spend the first 7 days in B'gaden and Salzburg and skip the rest.

B'gaden scene
The Königssee
Hohenwerfen Castle (tours, falconry show, 35 minutes south of Salzburg in Werfen)
Hohenwerfen information
Ice Caves (also in Werfen)
Burghausen Castle
Outing to Hallstatt

Berchtesgaden has a FREE visitors card that provides FREE local transportation. It covers enough ground that you could day trip into Salzburg if you wished very inexpensively. Details HERE

Berchtesgaden has some nice Biergärten - who needs a noisy tent?
Neuhaus
zum Unterstoa

Either on the way to this area or as a day trip from this area, you could visit Herrenchiemsee Palace - another of Ludwig II's palaces more conveniently located on the way to B'gaden and Salzburg from MUC airport:

Setting on Chiemsee Lake
Palace on Herrenchiemsee Island
Palace info

I agree that Munich during Oktoberfest is overcrowded and overpriced. However, that's because it really is a lot of fun, if you're into that sort of thing (ie: drinking beer with 8000 of your new best friends). It WILL be expensive to stay in Munich from Sept 17, so you and your group will have to decide what makes sense.

As for the rest of the trip, I see you have added Budapest- another great city, but it adds more logistical complications, especially with respect to the car. I would suggest making your drive from Salzburg to Vienna, directly to the train station and returning the car there, timed to catch a train to Budapest. Then return by train to Vienna for your three days there. You really don't need a car in either city. Of course, you could switch the order of the cities, but you would still pretty much have to come back to Vienna for the next phase, which is...

From Vienna, take the train to Ljubljana (or Bled, it's the same train). Rent a car there for the Slovenia and Croatia portion of the trip, and return it to the point of rental. Train travel from Ljubljana to Trieste is awkward and time consuming, but there are buses and private driving services, like Go-Opti, that can be much faster. From Trieste to Venice you really don't need a car.

One last note: you mention 2 days for Bled/Ljubljana, and 2 for Slovenia-Julian Alps. The Julian Alps are an easy day trip from either Bled or Ljubljana, so it's practical to stay in one place for all four nights. If so, I'd recommend an apartment in Ljubljana, with day trip to Bled and the Alps. I would also recommend trying to line up Rick Steves' recommended guide Tina Hiti for a tour, and let her do the driving through the Julian Alps. We spent two days with her a year ago, and she was fantastic. She lives near Bled, but picked us up in Ljubljana.
Happy trails!

We stayed a night in the very attractive city of Ljubljana and 2 nights in a charming small town in between Ljubljana and Lake Bled/Julian Alps - Škofja Loka - and afterward, we sort of wished we'd spent all 3 nights in Škofja Loka. The Hotel Garni Paleta is a charming place overlooking the river in the old town overlooking with small rooms and small prices, run by a charming host named Igor - and his wife, whose name escapes me. We used the bus between SL and Ljubljana.

View of the town
Hotel, just to the right of the bridge
Garni Paleta on T/A

Wow, thank you SO much. Especially for the web site links! We will be looking into moving our order of cities around and the car rental info is much needed! We are also open to short flights.

Check the car rental rates for options that include starting in Germany and ending in Austria. I looked at them yesterday for another itinerary and the rates were the just about the same (autoeurope.com, europcar.com) for the same dates with pick-up in one and drop-off in the other as for single-country.

What about leasing a car? Rick has some good advice about leasing if you will need a car for a couple weeks or more. Has anyone ever done that? Almost seems like it would be less expensive.