Driving in December

It's too early for Dec, but when I checked a random date in Nov, I found multiple trains, requiring a change in Munich. Time was 3 hrs +/- 15 min. Saver prices were €20 - 30/pp. Since it will be winter, with part of the drive in the Alps, road conditions can't be guaranteed, but the road clearing abilities in Bavaria are nothing if not efficient, should you encounter a snow event. Google maps estimates a trip time of 3 hr 45 min. But be sure you know in advance about the closest parking facility to your hotel. And you will need a vignette sticker for the car when you enter Austria.

There are also trains between Nuremberg and Coburg or Bamberg. I couldn't find a Rotgenburg. Is it Rottenburg?

Your plans are somewhat unclear, so it's hard to suggest changes that might help. Some questions about the details...

"We will arrive on December 21st." You're flying into Germany I assume... but where? Munich? Nuremberg? What hour do you arrive? Hours matter in a tight itinerary like yours.

"We were going to drive everywhere." Even Nuremberg - Salzburg - Munich - Dachau? Not good places to be dealing with a car at such a busy time when using the trains is so simple.

"...29-30 in Amsterdam and fly home." What time/day do you need to arrive in A'dam for whatever plans you have there? What day/time do you need to be at Schiphol Airport?

"I didn't realize it takes 8.5 hrs!! So, we will probably fly." Perhaps. You may be able to break up the long train trip from Munich to A'dam with a strategically-chosen overnight stay somewhere other than MUNICH on 12/28. Since there's no evening market there, I could easily see taking a train to Frankfurt or Cologne that evening for overnight, and a 2nd train after breakfast on the 29th to A'dam. (Not sure when you need to be in A'dam however.)

"21-24...base in Nuremberg" I would expect Nuremberg on this weekend to be completely overcrowded with visitors like yourselves. Germany's most historic and popular Christmas market is just a little too popular at this time.

There are no direct trains from Nuremberg to Salzburg; there is always a transfer in Munich. Timetables for the winter period will be available from mid October but will be essentially the same like the present ones, so you can check connections right now at www.db.com. For your itinerary renting a car would save no time and cost more: both Nürnberg - Rothenburg and Nürnberg - Bamberg is €19.70 for the entire family if you do both trips as planned on saturday and sunday, dec. 22-23 (a VGN "TagesticketPlus" is valid on saturday AND sunday), Nürnberg - Coburg is €28/2 on a "Regio-Ticket Franken - Thüringen" (valid after 9am on workdays, all day on weekends). Salzburg - Munich is €31/2 on a Bayern ticket (same conditions). For the Nürnberg - Salzburg leg, look up db.com for saver fare tickets ("Sparpreis", train-specific).

I'd look for cheap flights from Munich or Nürnberg to Amsterdam on skyscanner or kayak or any other consolidator.

Thanks everyone for your responses!
Yes, Russ, we were planning on driving everywhere. We usually go to Europe during Thanksgiving/mid to late November and driven through, England, Scotland, France, Belgium, Czech and Hungary at that time. However, we have never been there in late December. We just got back from driving through Italy and the Swiss Alps, but, of course, this was in June. My husband wants to drive and Im OK with it. My only concern is whether the roads are icy at that time of the year. As far as the train. There will be 3 of us with luggage. My mom is 71 and traveled with us everywhere. She is q trooper, but having a car makes it much easier for her...and for us, as far as tagging our luggage along.
Our initial plan was not to spend time in Amsterdam. However, Ams seems to be always the stop point on the way home. We wanted to have a 48 hrs layover in Amsterdam, but I cant find any flights to match it.
@Russ: we are flying into Nuremberg. Our initial flight was out of Nuremberg, as well, with a stop in Amsterdam. At this point. I am looking into flights out of Ams at 10:30am. Your suggestion to fly into Cologne and then to A'dam is great!
Thanks, everyone, again!!!

The last 10 years there have been freezing temps and snow in December and other years 50F/10C in Nord Oberpfalz @100km east of Nuernberg. We are at or nearing record highs this summer (really hot this week 33-36C). Other than local weather events the Autobahns will be clear. Make sure the rental has snow tires. I would not worry about the weather, but be prepared for a weather changing event (as always) that will extend your travel time.

Thanks, mchpp! Yes,we will request snow tires 👍

"Your suggestion to fly into Cologne and then to A'dam is great!"

??? What I suggested was an overnight stopover in either Cologne or Frankfurt with train journeys before and after:

"I could easily see taking a train to Frankfurt or Cologne that evening for overnight, and a 2nd train after breakfast on the 29th to A'dam."

When you use the train, you don't have to go through security lines or deal with searches, passports, disrobing, etc. You don't have to worry about carry-on and hold fees or sizes etc. or wait for your bags at the carousel or chase them down if they get lost. There is generally less walking (with bags) from point to point within a train station than there is within an airport. It's less hassle and perhaps even less time altogether than flying N'berg - Cologne - A'dam.

So you may not have any time in A'dam at the end? I would never suggest flying to Cologne and then to A'dam just prior to flying out of A'dam... And I don't recommend flying Nuremberg -A'dam on the same day as your flight out of A'dam either - if your flight is severely delayed or cancelled, it can jeopardize your flight home. Things can happen on the train as well... so traveling by train from Germany to A'dam on the day of your homebound flight is also dangerous unless you allow for a healthy time cushion in between arrival by train and flight departure.

Hmm... If Mom has difficulty getting on/off a train, she may find public transit tough as well, and might also have difficulty with the walking she'll need to do around Nuremberg (some cobblestoned pedestrian zones, inclines,) Salzburg and Munich. You won't find it pleasant or efficient (or sometimes even possible) to drive where you want to be in these cities. Your mom has only a few years on me but I would certainly base the decision on her actual condition rather than my level of comfort in these places - an age gauge tends to be useless for us boomers. In your/her situation and with a car, you might consider skipping Munich and Nuremberg. Christmas markets are literally everywhere these days. You could seek out smaller towns with Christmas markets, towns that are easier to drive into and to find parking in, less overwhelmed with crowds, easier to walk around. I've traveled by car with my in-laws who were in their 70's and in remarkably good shape, but who struggled here and there with fatigue, caught colds that made the increased on-your-feet hours, the sightseeing schedule, and the rigors of packing/unpacking and changing hotels much more stressful. In the Nuremberg area, Amberg and Bad Windsheim come to mind as handsome smaller towns with markets, but I'm sure there are numerous other places as well.

WOW! That's a LOT information! LOL.
As far as my mom, she can walk. She has done really well going up and and down the cobblestone steps in Bellagio this past June.
Got your point on flying vs train.
After much consideration, we are thinking to skip Amsterdam altogether. The top places we must visit are Nuremberg and Salzburg. However, I want to visit them during their Christmas markets. So the new itinerary looks like this:
Fly in to Munich...2 nights
Train to Salzburg...2 nights
Train to Nuremberg (via Munich)...3 nights
Rent a car and drive around. Ideally to Bamburg and Coburg (1 day) and Rothenburg (2nd day)
Train to Dresden...2 nights
Train to Berlin...2 nights
Fly home from Berlin (transfer in France).

Russ, how does this sound?

I think you'll find the Christmas markets in Salzburg are the only ones open on the 25th and 26th. Is that when you'll be there? There will be next to nothing to do on those days elsewhere.

Sounds like too much travel rigor in the allotted time.

Dresden + Berlin with all the ground travel involved is simply not advisable. Berlin alone typically requires 4 days for active sightseeing.

If it were my trip I'd leave Berlin and Dresden out. But from your last post it looks like you have a more aggressive mindset, so I will offer this plan that covers most of what you want, though it may be hectic... Where trains are suggested I focus on direct trains. Trains at other times are not all going to be direct... Times are random from other days so you need to recheck everything once schedules and tickets for your dates come out.

12/21: Arrive MUC airport. Direct train into Munich (40 minutes, Airport-City day ticket.) Stay afternoon and one night in Munich. Recuperate, freshen up, get over jet lag, gentle sightseeing. (Not a good day to head anywhere by car btw.)

12/22: Direct morning train (9:14 - 10:49, €36/3 adults) to Nuremberg for 3 nights. Drop bags and see market.
12/23: Get car for outings to Rothenburg, Coburg.

12/25: Keep car. Morning drive (3 hours) to Salzburg for 1 night, 2 days.

12/26: Drive to Munich in p.m. for 1 night.

12/27: Drop car early in the morning. Direct train (8:55) to Bamberg (10:40) for 6.5 hours of sightseeing (store bags at station.) Direct train (17:18) to Berlin (19:55) for 4 nights (3 days.) (Bamberg is right on the express train route to Berlin, so it costs you no extra ground travel time or expense; if you instead decide to visit on a prior day (12/23 or 24) with the car, then you can proceed more quickly to Berlin, if you wish. There are direct trains from Munich to Berlin.)

Russ,
Thank you so much for such a detailed itinerary. I truly appreciate your help...and everyone else's!

You may want to find some web sites that offer tips on driving in Germany, including explanation of signage. Learning by trial and error can be painful & costly. One example, the fine for failure to clear a rescue lane (rettungsgasse) was significantly increased recently.
DW
Stars & Stripes
South Korean example

OK, for FYI I'm throwing this out there and this is probably overkill but AE Pam 190-34/USAFE Pam 31-206 http://www.ansbach.army.mil/documents/DriversManualGermany.pdf

US Soldiers must pass a written test for a Army/Airforce European License.

APPENDIX B INTERNATIONAL ROAD SIGNS is probably something that Americans should study if they have never driven in Europe.

Thanks, mchpp 🙂 Also, my husband already has an International license from when we drove in Italy this summer. I know in Germany it is not a requirement, but if we decide to drive into Belgium or Austria, not sure. Might as well bring with us. We will definitely study the signs. Thank you!

If you want to see Nuremberg and Salzburg, why not fly into Nuremberg and out of Salzburg?

The Nuremberg Christkindlemarkt is crazy the last two nights; 23-24 DEC. (Ask me how I know.)

KGC,
Too much flying! LOL. We don't mind crazy 😜