Does this itinerary look good?

I've traveled the length of the Rhine Valley a couple of times, preferring to stay at Bacharach between Frankfort Airport and Cologne. Bacharach's an easy train ride from the Frankfort airport, and there are some great B&B's in that Rhine River town.
Cologne is a great city, and much more than just the incredible Kölner Dom. It only took 632 years to complete the cathedral, and it's quite a sight with it's 515 ft. twin spires. I wouldn't spend any time running down to Bonn.
I agree with your wanting to spend time in Dresden, however I'd suggest you not shave time from Berlin and Cologne to see it. Some of my family (91 years old now) grew up in Dresden--prior to the Allied bombing at the end of WWII. It was simply the most beautiful city of them all, and it's in the middle of a major transformation. The art museums there are also incredible.

Köln doesn't really do it for me. It's cathedral and the fact that it's somewhat bigger are the only things that really sets it apart from it's sister cities on the lower Rhine and Ruhr, like Düsseldorf, Dortmund, Essen, Wuppertal, etc. None of these are bad or particularly ugly... but they're mostly rebuilt industrial cities after the war. Probably not what people travel across the ocean to see. You could do far worse than to stay here, but I would give it 2 nights max, and that includes seeing Bonn as a daytrip.

You could consider cutting some time from Berlin to add Dresden. But don't cut Leipzig short, I think two nights there is perfect. Dresden slightly disappointed me, Leipzig was a very pleasent surprise. Easily the most attractive large city in the former DDR. The Thomaskirche isn't the most elaborate church you'll ever visit... but as a Bach fan, you're probably not visiting to appreciate the religious art.

Thank you, this is super helpful. I am trying to factor in what time I'd arrive in Cologne from Boppard or Bachrach and it looks like it takes a good 2 hours to get there on most trains, so if I got there in the afternoon there wouldn't be a lot of time there, because I do want to go to Bonn the next day and visit some of the Beethoven sites and maybe even the gummi bear factory. I haven't made plane reservations yet, but some of the flights get into FRA in the evening so I'm looking for a train ride without a lot of changes when we're tired and jet lagged. Is Koblenz a good compromise place to stay? That's only a 1 hour train ride to Cologne, so we could get there earlier, have more time in our day, but it's also only about a 15 min. train ride from Boppard and 40 min from Bachrach, so I'm thinking we could spend all day and even have dinner in those small towns but just sleep in Koblenz for travel efficiency. Does this make sense?

Boppard is a good choice for 3 nights - more places to stay and dine, and more to do overall, than in Bacharach. If you want to visit Bacharach, a very nice town, but one that doesn't require tons of time to explore, it's 20 minutes to the south. To the north is Koblenz (15 min.) - no megalopolis but a good place if you want to stay out late in the city somewhere one night. St. Goar (Rheinfels Castle) and Oberwesel are closer than Bacharach And if you plan to head to Cochem or Burg Eltz on the Mosel (both great destinations,) or north of Koblenz along the Rhine to Linz or Remagen, or to Braubach on the east bank of the Rhine for Marksburg Castle, it is easy to do so from Braubach. A day trip to Cochem from Bacharach, which lies further to the south, means 40 more total train minutes than the same trip from Boppard.

I would consider 4 nights in Boppard with day trips, and one in Cologne. Burg Eltz with Cochem would be a very full day trip. St. Goar, Oberwesel and Bacharach could usurp another day. Marksburg with Linz is doable in one day. You may want to do some hiking/walking between towns in this area too - the scenery on the cliffside trails between St. Goar and Oberwesel, for example, is outstanding. No, you won't see everything in Cologne with just one night, but you probably don't want to see everything. Most sights are within a short radius of the main station.

"I do want to go to Bonn the next day and visit some of the Beethoven sites and maybe even the gummi bear factory."

Bonn is within the Rheinland-Pfalz travel network and could be done as a day trip from Boppard instead, perhaps in combination with a stop in Linz (gorgeous old town) or Remagen (good WW II museum at the site of the former Ludendorf Bridge where US forces managed to take the Rhine despite German efforts to blow up the bridge.)

Rheinland-Pfalz ticket

"Is Koblenz a good compromise place to stay?"

Koblenz is a train hub and convenient logistically for outings. But you would want to stay near the main station for convenience, and that area is truly Dullsville. Staying in Koblenz's old town might be a little better but you'll spend the same 15 minutes getting to the main station that you'll spend getting there from Boppard. Boppard's small-town appeal beats Koblenz's offerings, generally speaking (unless you're looking for post-war shopping centers - heh heh.)

Thanks for all these suggestions! BTW, with this overall itinerary, are we better off with the Rhineland regional train pass and point to point tickets for the rest, or some kind of generalized rail pass? It's two of us traveling together. I was going to research that next, but maybe one of you knows off the top of your head.

I'm not a fan of Cologne either. The city was completely leveled in WW2, apart from the cathedral and several (great) Romanesque churches there isn't much to see.
I would try to spend at least a full day in Erfurt. It's the only preserved city you will see. Rick Steves calls Erfurt a "untouristy Rothenburg", which isn't really true since Erfurts old town is bigger and more diverse, but it's really one of Germanys most attractive cities. If Erfurt would be in Bavaria people would rave about it. I would actually add a day to see Wartburg castle too.
I don't think Leipzig is that great for tourists. It feels like a small Berlin, with a better preserved centre. But it always was a trading town, and merchants don't care for arts. There are no important museums, no great historic buildings (even the town hall was quickly built between two trade fairs), just a pleasant and compact old town, big parks and nice living quarters. IMHO a full day is enough for Leipzig. But you could do a day trip to Dresden from there. Dresden is good for either one day or more than 3 days, since you either see the very small old town and one or two museums, or do day trips to sights in the surroundings.
BTW: Weimar, Erfurt and Leipzig are close together, you could also stay in Erfurt or Leipzig and do day trips to the other places.

"...are we better off with the Rhineland regional train pass and point to point tickets for the rest, or some kind of generalized rail pass?"

There's no top-of-the-head answer for this. The railpass will be convenient. It SOUNDS like you have about 10 railpass days if you tried to cover it all or most of it with a German railpass. €541 ($740 USD) for a 10-day twinpass (for two)
DB railpass page

The Sit'n'Save promo means a 25% reduction on said railpasses (reservations required for long-distance trains, however - seems like a serious downside to me):
Sit'n'Save

The p2p prices if you bought them at the stations in Germany would cost much more. Advance-sale saver fares however are excellent. These go on sale at DB 92 days in advance - and typically the best fares go fairly quickly on the popular routes during heavy travel periods. Your prices for these will depend on what's left over on saver fares for your specific travel dates. It's certainly worth checking these fares before you spring for the railpasses. Note that you should be sure of your plans with these fares, as there's a penalty for refunds if you don't want to use the specific trains you must schedule in advance. (Note that p2p fares are not available at the DB site for travel within a local transit authority like the VRM in the Rhine/Mosel region - local passes like the ones below are a good way to calculate prices.)

If the 10-day railpass looks good by comparison with the p2p saver fares, consider also the option of a shorter term railpass + regional daypasses (for localized travel.) In the Rhine/Mosel region, two adults can get a 3-day mini-group pass for most outings for just €43.60. So if you have 10 days of travel total with 3 days on the Rhine, you could get one of these min-group passes plus a standard 7-day twinpass (€430, €111 less than the standard 10-day twinpass) and you would save nearly €70 altogether.

Rhine/Mosel area passes to consider:
VRM mini-group daypass
VRM mini-group 3-day pass
Rheinland-Pfalz Ticket day pass

These local passes are good anytime on Sat or Sun, after 9 am weekdays (if you're late risers, no problem.) They can be bought locally from ticket machines on the day of travel. Since you're traveling locally you'll use local trains - no reservations required or even possible. So making plans as you go with these local passes is really just as convenient as with the railpasses good for all of Germany.

LINK to VRM and R-P passes

Hi,

Day trip from Erfurt to Weimar is good. Get there early to reserve a full day to Weimar, seeing some of the museums/houses of Goethe and Schiller and so on. Their statue together am Theaterplatz can also be seen in San Francisco.

True on Leipzig and the one museum I have seen there thus far...the Völkerschlachtdenkmal Museum...a bit disappointing. I had expected a more thorough treatment.

Hi all - So here is what we have come up with for 17 nights. We get into FRA from Phoenix around 1:30 PM so have plenty of time to catch a train to Boppard.
4 nights Boppard - want to do boat trips on Rhine and Mosel, as well as some hiking in both areas.
2 nights Cologne -train gets us in around noon, so time to make 2:30 cathedral tour, plus wandering around. Day trip to Bonn next day because classical music is my thing and I need to see the Beethoven Haus.
Then. . .5 hour train ride to Leipzig. So train day is pretty much trash, get into Leipzig with a little time to wander around, get our bearings and have dinner.
4 Nights Leipzig - not all to see Leipzig, but to minimize time-wasting hotel changes. 1 full day in Leipzig, then day trips one day to Dresden and another day to Erfurt and/or possibly Weimar. Or just stay in Leipzig more if more to see. Have to play that by ear, but I could use help setting priorities.
6 nights Berlin.
Thoughts? Is Potsdam worth the time for side trip from Berlin? We are a bit "palaced-out" from other European trips so probably wouldn't go just to see the palace.

And a question about hiking in the Rhineland - is this hiking-boot hiking, or will decent athletic shoes do? I would like to minimize weight, but would hate to miss out on a great hike if we don't have the right shoes. But traipsing through all those cities carrying hiking boots in our luggage doesn't seem appealing either!

What kind of hiking do you plan to do in the Rheinland? Walk between towns? along the river? Not a very efficient means of exploring, but at least the routes along the river are completely flat. Walking through the vineyards? Most of the trails here need to accomodate small service vehicles, so the paths are rather smooth. Hiking further up into the hills? Some of these trails are a bit rough. For this option, hiking boots would be recommended.

Hi,

Good choice in seeing the Beethoven Haus. That's enough reason for going to Bonn. I would definitely see what Leipzig offers in classical music, eg, Bach's Haus, Mendelsohn's Haus/Museum, etc. Now if you want to track down something esoteric and specific in Dresden (ordinarily, I would suggest the big Military Museum ) but in the realm of classical music, I suggest seeing the museum of Beethoven's contemporary, Carl Maria von Weber Museum in Dresden-Holsterwitz, accessible from Dresden Hbf by bus.

Hi - this is in answer to Tom. I haven't had time to investigate specific hikes yet, other than I know we just want to get out and enjoy some natural beauty and local scenery, probably nothing too rugged. We were in the Swiss Alps a couple of years ago and felt that the trails we were on, though not difficult, needed boots for traction and stability on hills. If nice hikes can be had that aren't on rocky, wet or very gravely paths then I think we can eliminate the boots.

Russ- a question about the sitnsave pass you mentioned above. I read and reread the pass information and it looked like reservations are required on ALL trains... doesn't sound reasonable to me. Did I miss something?

Thoughts? Is Potsdam worth the time for side trip from Berlin? We are
a bit "palaced-out" from other European trips so probably wouldn't go
just to see the palace.

There isn't "the palace", there are at least 15 around Potsdam. It's a huge park landscape with Potsdam in the middle. But unlike the Russians and French the Prussians, as good Protestants, didn't built these palaces to show off, they were personal hideaways where the kings could escape the hectic of Berlin and live sans souci, without care. Tourists should do the same. Slow down, enjoy the views, and relax. Of course you can visit some palaces, but you don't have to, since they are rather intimate and not as spectacular as Versailles or Peterhof. The only one that comes close is the New Palace at Sanssouci.

I like Potsdam a lot and could easily spend at least two days there. Sanssouci is good for all full day if you want to see the entire park (the Roman Baths are lovely!). And if you like it less touristy you can stroll from the New Garden via the spy bridge to Glienicke and Babelsberg Park and end your day at Peacock Island. I actually like the area around the spy bridge more than Sanssouci. And Potsdam itself offers a partly preserved old town with a Dutch and Russian quarter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sights_of_Potsdam

IF you're in Cologne on a Tuesday in early September, you might catch the last of the summer organ concerts in the Dom. Music is spectacular, and concert is free. The Haribo factory in Bonn is actually in nearby Bad Godesburg, but it's not really a factory tour. It's a store! You can find the same extensive selection of Gummi everything in one of the basement grocery stores of the big department store Kaufhof in Cologne, Bonn, or many other German cities.

Hille asks, "Russ- a question about the sitnsave pass you mentioned above. I read and reread the pass information and it looked like reservations are required on ALL trains... doesn't sound reasonable to me. Did I miss something?"

I think so. From the Sit'n'Save promo page:
"Please note: Reservations are mandatory on all ICE, IC, EC, RJ, TGV, CNL, DEN and D trains and on IC bus services on routes in Germany."

So the SnS pass requires reservations on lots of trains, but the ones listed above represent only a fraction of the German trains - they are all high-speed, long-distance trains that tend to serve larger towns and cities. If your trip starts or ends in smaller places (Bacharach is a good example) where such trains do not stop, you will need to use the regional and local trains (typically used for short trips) instead - RE, RB, IRE, M, VIA, MRB... these are just a few of the short-distance train labels. Reservations on these trains are impossible.

Example: You are traveling from Bacharach to Rothenburg, a trip that requires at least 4-5 separate trains.

Bacharach - Mainz (MRB train)
Mainz - Würzburg (IC train)
Würzburg - Steinach - Rothenburg (2 separate RB trains)

With the SnS pass, you would need a reservation for the Mainz - Würzburg IC train. You can just get hop on the other trains and find any seat you like.

Or your trip might look like this one instead - with 5 trains total and 2 long-distance trains.
Bacharach - Mainz (MRB train)
Mainz - Frankfurt - Würzburg (2 ICE trains)
Würzburg - Steinach - Rothenburg (2 separate RB trains)

In this case you'd again need a reservation for the two trains between Mainz and Würzburg.

With the real German Railpass, you just get on the high-speed trains and find a seat (one with no reservation posted for the leg you are traveling.)

Hi all - thanks so much for all of your help and I now have my hotels booked. What I'm mostly trying to figure out now is the best train deal. We are flying to FRA and have:
4 nights in Boppard after arrival, so really 3 full days in that area.
2 nights in Bonn (way cheaper hotels than Cologne) - basically 1/2 day in Cologne to see cathedral/wander around and a day in Bonn, chalk it up to Beethoven!
1 long travel day to Leipzig, then 4 nights Leipzig. (First night we'll just be able to catch the 6 pm Sunday service at Bach's church, Thomaskirche). So we basically have 3 full days in Leipzig, one of which could include a day trip to either Erfurt, Weimar or Dresden, undecided here. Or if we are enchanted by Leipzig we might skip the day trip, this is TBD.
6 nights Berlin, then fly home.

So definite trains are:
- FRA to Boppard, and I can't lock in a saver fare because of unknowns about flight, customs, etc.
- Boppard to Bonn to drop off stuff, then right back to Cologne for the day, then back to Bonn at night - 3 trains.
-Bonn to Leipzig
-Unknown possible side trip from Leipzig, tbd that day
-Leipzig to Berlin

Plus on the 3 days that we'll be in Boppard, we'll be doing a bunch of travel between the little towns on the Rhine and maybe one day on the Mosel, plus taking KD boats at least one day, maybe two.

Right now I can get a saver ticket on the Bonn to Leipzig leg, which is the most expensive. Am I best off getting the Rhine area regional pass and then getting point to point tickets for the other rides? I'm thinking that would cover all the bopping around Boppard and the back and forth between Cologne and Bonn. Their website is not the easiest to figure out so I'm not sure if it includes the KD boats. Thanks!

@ Irene,,,.With six nights in Berlin, surely you can spare one day for visiting Potsdam, one of my favourite small towns in Germany. If you want to see Neues Palais, as suggested above, without a tour (The tours include both Sans Soucci and Neues Palais), that's easily done by public transportation outside of Potsdam Hbf. One the trams goes directly there. Signs indicate which tram to take to reach which destination..

From Leipzig to Dresden is a short ride on the ICE. You just may be enchanted by Leipzig Hbf, it's huge, lots to explore on the different floors. But, on the other hand, I would hate to miss Weimar, see Goethe and Schiller am Theaterplatz. It's also here in SF.

Thanks, Fred. So many choices and I wish we had a whole month! We're definitely going to spend a day in Potsdam. We also got Berlin Philharmonic tickets and Berlin Comic Opera tickets for an unusual multi-media performance of The Magic Flute. I can't wait! What does everyone think between Erfurt, Weimar and Dresden as side trips from Leipzig?

I just got back from visiting Potsdam and Dresden. Found Potsdam to be one of the most attractive cities I have seen. Stayed in the Dutch Quarter at Zum Hofmaler. Spent all day long in the park, visiting Sans Soucci, the Orangerie Palace, the Chinese Tea House (takes about 5 min. in there), the Roman Baths, and the Windmill which I really enjoyed. I was there for 2 days and found it be enough, though I could have stayed one more.

Had about a day and a half in Dresden, but because it was pouring rain most of the time, I didn't get to see quite as much as I wanted. Still, the city is very beautiful and you will need some time to just walk around. If you want to go in the Residenz or any of the art museums, you may need more time.

If you want to do day trips to either of these cities, Insider Tours offers them (as well as some other great themed tours). The Dresden trip is 49 € per person, which I thought was a good deal and it goes on Wed. & Sun. and you need a reservation. Train fare is probably more than that. You ride on a bus and the guide gives lots of information during the travel time. The trip to Potsdam uses the train and costs 15 €. It only goes on Wed. and Sun. but you don't need a reservation. The guide gives you a lot of information about Potsdam during the train ride. You don't get to go into the palaces on this tour, so if you are palaced out, this might be a good one for you.
http://www.insidertour.com/

What does everyone think between Erfurt, Weimar and Dresden as side
trips from Leipzig?

Erfurt offers a beautiful old town with many timber-framed houses, picturesque corners, Renaissance houses, churches etc.. A bigger Rothenburg, but without a town wall and not as disneyesque. Weimar is a sleepy provincial town which was once the capital of a tiny duchy. A cute, small old town, big 18/19th century government buildings, castles and parks. And Dresden offers world-class museums and great architecture in a very small, reconstructed old town.
It depends on your interests. If you want to see a quintessential German town see Erfurt. If you are interested in German culture and want to spend a relaxed day see Weimar. And if you're into museums, or it rains, visit Dresden.

@ Irene....You're welcome. So true if you had a month in Germany in order to track down all this cultural history in Weimar (the city of Goethe and Schiller, aside from Herder and Wieland), Dresden, Erfurt, Leipzig, and Potsdam. Throw in Meissen too, called "die Wiege Sachsens" (the cradle/birthplace of Saxony), spent a day there from Berlin, definitely worthy of another trip, when I can go at a slower pace and absorb the place. Also, if you can't pull yourself away from Leipzig, (that, in and of itself, is pretty hard to do in certain German cities), in the realm of music aside from the houses/museums of Bach and Mendelsohn, is also that of Liszt.

My above comment on the military history museum in Dresden-Neustadt: if you want something different. Use the S-Bahn to get to it. Dresden was not only a cultural a center but also a military base Both Frederick the Great and Napoleon fought battles there. That MH Museum is bigger than any military/army museum in western Germany.

I also like to travel at a slower pace to take things in and not rush around like a maniac. I would never last in a tour group, I'd be the last person on the bus! Other than a 2-day stop in Munich on the way to Austria and a short visit to Heilbronn when I was a teenager (on a tour which we left for that excursion), this is my first real vacation in Germany. It looks like this will be a good introduction and then I'll have to go back!