Dachau with Family-one under 13

For this official tour, my 13 year old daughter looks like she is 14/15. Often people think she is older than my 14 year old (she is taller than her). Will they ask us her age if we buy a tour ticket for her?

Children 13 and older can participate in the tour. There's a good reason why this restriction exists: this isn't a visit to an amusement park. It's mind-boggling for adults, and I can't imagine how difficult it is for children to understand all of this.
German kids learn about it in school, and despite everything I knew, this visit to Dachau haunted my dreams.

I can only repeat it here in the forum. I would always visit the NS Documentation Center in Munich first. It's a kind of preparation for the visit to Dachau, after all. You can visit it in the morning and then drive to Dachau. You see how the children react to the horror and you can then decide if you still want to go with them to Dachau.

I agree to Mignon but would go further:

1. This visit is a one-way street: take one more very aware moment what you are planning to do there with your kids because when something bad happens in a mind or soul it takes long to be able to live with it. Human brains have no "delete" function.

2. Age is no qualifier: there are hundreds of feedbacks that people from ALL AGES were not able to cope with the content and / or feelings they had during the visit of former c-camps. I would recommend sensitive and empathic minds NOT to visit such places because there is nearly no barrier which protects you. If you have children and adults which "live movies" at the moment they see one, do not take them into this memorial.

3. No "this is just a movie" excuse makes the experience there very different from horror movies in a cinema or on TV. There is no relativizing calm-down explanation that this is only fiction. This was reality - in million cases (all over the places where this happened).

Protect your children and decide which mind is able to in best case keep the distance to what it sees or in worst case can cope / progress in a constructive way what they saw.

A child-friendly way to explain this part of history are stumbling stones which you will find in the pavements of nearly every German city (list for Munich); often with short descriptions in the Internet what people lived / worked at this places and were deported suddenly and too often murdered.

I also second the recommendation to first visit the NS documentation center in Munich.

I have been to Dachau as well as even more chilling Auschwitz.

My wife and I had nightmares after visiting Auschwitz. Dachau is not as chilling.

Still, I would not recommend taking young children to Dachau. Whether you do so will depend on your judgment knowing your kids.

from the official website ::

Is the Memorial Site appropriate for children?

There is no special
exhibition for children at the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial, and
some of the content may not be appropriate for children under 13. It
is therefore recommended that children visit the Memorial only when
accompanied by their parents.

All of the programs offered by the Education Department are for
visitors aged 13 and above.

Do you have plans for the 11 year old?

It does really depend on the child. This is nowhere near the same, but my 11 yr old wanted to go to the Holocaust Museum in DC.

We were on a school trip and the teacher gave me a dirty look for taking my daughter, but she was someone who almost runs through museums, so did not spend much time in there and did not seem to have any problems afterward. My point being, maybe one parent could go through the site with her at a quicker pace so she wouldn't be immersed in the horror for as long of a period of time.

@Mignon, Dachau's website states: "Guided Tours for Individual Visitors:
Please note: All of the programs offered by the Education Department are for visitors over the age of 13.
These tours are aimed at individual visitors and consist of a guided tour through the grounds of the former camp, the historical buildings, and parts of the permanent exhibition."
https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/en/visit/guided-tours-individual-visitors/
- It says, "over the age of 13." Does that mean my 13 year old can go--is she "over" 13? I assumed over 13 years old meant you had to be 14, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

@MarkK--I appreciate your words of caution and will take them to heart. I will discuss with my husband, and we will be discerning on what we think is appropriate for each of our kids: beforehand and also during the visit.
Also, thank you for the Wikipedia link about the stumbling stones in Munich. That's neat to know. Silly question--is there an English version of that website? I couldn't find a way to successfully change the language like I can on other websites. (I'm sure it exists--I just couldn't find it.). Would you mind sharing the link in English with me? (I've been working on learning German via Duolingo, but I'm still at a very, very elementary level. ;-) ). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Stolpersteine_in_München

@Nigel--No, I don't have plans for my 11 year old other than what @Cala is suggesting--a parent staying back and keeping her less-engaged in the sites and/or speed through it. With phones, it would be easy to give her something to do to distract herself somewhere on the property while the rest of the family tours through more slowly. We have the logistical challenge of traveling as a family with a range of ages and don't have a central base or a way to leave a child behind for an event. Thus, my thoughts about a parent lingering back with the 11 year old.

I am still wanting to know the details on how long the audio tour is and what time we would need to arrive if part of our group wanted to join the 1pm tour. 1 hour earlier? More?

My 11 year old is mature enough to behave herself, is already familiar about this part of history...

Yes... And so is the rest of your family, I am sure. Even very young educated people know about the Holocaust, Anne Frank, Hitler, etc. And I think this should influence how you spend your time in Germany. Sadly, most Americans don't learn much else about Germany in school. They tend to harbor images of Nazis and of media content (oompah-bands, dirndl-clad maidens and Lederhosen, mostl) when they hear "Germany" or "German." There's no harm done in hearing an oompah band, but the point is that these are STEREOTYPES that are begging to be broken by a visit to Germany. And the stereotypes you choose to emphasize as important will surely be re-inforced, especially with experiences that are deeply emotional (as Dachau will surely be.)

So if you want your children to maintain stereotypes, these sights and experiencess will do that. And if you want to evoke and perhaps set in concrete the images of Germany and Germans as fascistic and genocidal, I think a Dachau is a useful tool.

It's important that we do not forget the lessons of the Holocaust and failed fascist regimes. But that isn't a problem for most individuals traveling to Europe, IME. Holocaust deniers ought to be dragged through Dachau, and relatives of victims will of course want to go there sometimes, but the gruesome details at Dachau are an otherwise unnecessary travel experience, one with fewer benefits than drawbacks, IMHO. Consider instead some time learning about POST-WW II events - the Wirtschaftswunder for example - to learn how TODAY'S Germany has come to be.

Russ, I strongly disagree. We must never forget that the Germans did this and reflect on whether or not each of us would have acquiesced in this evil as the majority of them did and as the majority of Russians are doing now while Hitler 2.0 is currently trying to annihilate the nation of Ukraine and its people. EDITED: and as our ancestors did with slavery and its aftermath and the intentional destruction of Native Americans and their culture. My daughter has been educated about this history as well. We are planning to see the Cherokee dramatic presentation "Unto These Hills" this summer.

EDITED: I just read the book about what women scientists and others went through trying to get out of Germany and how unhelpful the US government was.

It says, "over the age of 13." Does that mean my 13 year old can go--is she "over" 13? I assumed over 13 years old meant you had to be 14, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

I would say over 13 means 13 and 1 day. So it should suit you.

We must never forget that the Germans did this and reflect on whether or not each of us would have acquiesced in this evil as the majority of them did

Yes, I'm on board with that, but a visit to a concentration camp alone won't help.

I know from some Americans that the focus in school on the topic of the NS era was more on the deeds the US Army committed to liberate Europe. No idea what it is like in other countries. Given this background, a visit to a concentration camp is important, but it doesn't convey all the messages it's supposed to convey.
I, on the other hand, didn't learn much about heroic battles in school, but rather about why the NS regime fell on fertile ground in the first place, what signs there were beforehand, etc. Most importantly, of course, was what motivated the population to either enthusiastically participate or to watch silently. Our most important learning goal in school was to recognize the signs and always keep in mind that it could happen again at any time. And I am also in the fortunate position of having had a grandmother who talked about it.

The majority of Germans are sensitive when it comes to right-wing movements in their own country. That's why many take to the streets when it seems that the right-wing is being glorified again. As you can unfortunately see, this is necessary. And what makes most of us angry is, when someone from other countries tells us we should finally stop silencing right-wing parties. What a joke, if it weren't so sad.

I'm one of those Germans who welcomes the idea of engaging with this topic but I want to emphasize again and again that you have to keep the context in focus. Only then you can draw parallels to yourself and your own country, and only then will a visit to a concentration camp have a learning effect. Everything else, as Russ writes, is just perpetuating stereotypes. That is why I am also pleased that there are so many people here in the forum who are really seriously dealing with the topic.

Russ, I fully agree with you.

We must never forget that the Germans did this

Well Cala, and this is an important point. Yes, our ancestors did this in a perfidious perfection (without any computers or administration technology) - also together with other countries and people from other nations. And never forget that "Jude" was made to a racism ideology - not a faith dispute. And also never forget that also many other enemies of Nazi ideology were experiencing the same cruel treatment.

Each of today's big nations has a history of million victims - most of them also with colonialism, racism and genocide often with also millions of dead people - but where is that part of history of the other nations? Germany is the only country which stands to the cruel part of its history in this extent and transparency - and yes we know clean also up the corner of German colonialism. And what about the other nations? Beeping the n-word on TV is not overcoming and cleaning up the shame and mistakes of own history. Or is there any common wealth in Commonwealth - what was the blood price for it?

You want to show Germany? Take any book into your hand and remind yourself who invented printing books in a mass production. Or listen to music of Bach and Beethoven, read German lyrics, look at sculptures and paintings from famous artists, visit engineering, technology and car museums, ... Germany is science, technology and so much more ... ever heard of Konrad Zuse? No? Just use your grand-grand-grandchild device of his invention and search for it. During Weimar Republic (1919-33) nearly every third Nobel price winner in natural science came from Germany.

And show the manifold and cultures of Germany: Hamburg and Munich for example are so different that they could belong to different countries. Or stay in Bavaria and get into cultural details of Franconia, Upper Palatinate or Swabia.

Visit the Wall Memorial in Berlin and find out the feeling of standing first row in Cold War - not the remote version of it. We had Cuba crisis every day over decades. I was grown up in a cage - called West-Berlin - threatened every day. Ask yourself how funny you would find it that your country is divided by two other nations which play sheriffs of the planet out of ideology and imperialism. The people of Germany (esp. the former GDR citizens) were ending this part of Cold War on European grounds - not the sheriffs. Get into our museums, talk to us and find out how.

And taste our foods: thousands sorts of bread and beer alone. Germans and a lot of our European neighbors are foodies by DNA.

Do not miss our biggest invention after WWII: peace for over seven decades, free trade and travel with our European neighbors. Visit and explore this as an example of change.

The closer you look into Germany's manifold culture the less stereotypes you will find in Ger-manyfold.

If I was travelling with my family, and if my children were still that young, I would not hesitate to take them to Dachau.
In and of itself, it is not very much "in your face". Unless you know the details, you will need to rely on the tour, or the audio or the excellent signage in the displays to provide you with context and details. A child will not fully grasp what is under their feet or around them without some interpretation and explanation. As a parent, you should be able to deliver as much or as little overview of the camp as you think is right for the child.
This sidebar of a visit to Dachau serving to council future generations to the evil that it was and to steer us clear from this ever happening again.....wishful thinking. It takes so much more. It is so easy for humankind to step into the weeds. These reminders help, but human values need to matter, and they need to be practiced always, not only when it is convenient. A visit to Erfurt might also help to shape an appreciation of how cultural mistreatment of the Juden was. The events that took place in Germany were not shaped overnight. What now is playing out on the world stage wasn't either.

back to the 11 and 13 year olds - I think that anybody of that age, and adults and other siblings will be moved by the pile of shoes. If they allow themselves to imagine the children and people who used to wear them this will make a big impression.

Mark K's comments are inidicative of the sincere and unusual efforts Germans have made to take responsibility and caution the planet against racism and extremism. I am not aware of other countries with totalitarian and genocidal pasts which later did a 180 and began educating others so thoroughly on the evils of their own forefathers. "Never Forget" is something close to the national motto there, and they've reminded the world to take the words seriously in hundreds of ways, including the stumble-stone (Stolperstein) phenomenon (the incredible and unmissable sidewalk mini-memorials which visitors always notice.)

KZ Dachau is just a small part of those efforts. I doubt that the Bavarian governnment was targeting tourists when it founded this memorial site. It's not surprising that the older German woman who is quoted in Rick's Dachau write-up in responds to Rick and his camera as she does: "You tourists come here not to learn but to hate," she says.

https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/dachau-memorial-germany

How could she be wrong? Our schools - and our culture more broadly - correctly condemn Germany's Nazi past but fail to properly educate us on ultra-progressive modern-day Germany and its people - who thus get lumped in with the Nazis in the minds of Americans. I suspect this woman is not alone with her feelings. As honest and as open as Germany has been about its awful period, a lot of well-meaning but underinformed Americans seem to be looking down on Germany.

Rick reports giving her a smile that said (non-verbally) "I don't hold your people's genocidal atrocities against you."

Who knows if she got that message... but if she did, maybe she's asking herself, "How dare he even think anyone should do such a thing?" That would certainly explain her comment to him.

When Dachau becomes a must-see for Rick Steves and his followers, it's no surprise to me that his followers bring with them their antipathy toward Nazi Germany - or that their lack of education about modern Germany leads them to equate today's Germans with those Germans 2-3 generations ago.

Travel to Germany really should focus on much more than the relatively few years of Nazi rule that terrorized the country. Americans really need to fill in their ignorance-gaps - which often means acquainting themselves with remainder of Germany's entire history.

I really like Mark K's list of ideas above for taking on that kind of visit. And I'd recommend the Dachau tour for only those family members who might be leaning toward fascism.

"...it's no surprise to me that his (Rick's) followers bring with them their antipathy toward Nazi Germany..."

I thought it would be clear from context that an acquired antipathy toward a genocidal Nazi government would be a positive/healthy sort of antipathy. Feel free to insert "justifiable" or "deserved" or "earned" in front of "antipathy."

Someone above said there is no delete button in a child's mind. Having raised 3.5 children, each totally unique a camp is not a place i would have taken any of them, at any age, without having done a lot of prepatory work ... that means years worth. Anything less than that gets you a lot of shock but little useful education.

I like the thought-provoking answers to the OP's questions, especially Russ's and Mister E's.

What age parents feel is appropriate to educate their children on the holocaust and whether that involves visits to Dachau is a personal decision. We thought it important to educate our children on it as well as Indian genocides in the US, slavery and colonialism in the world.

I am glad Rick Steves has excellent programming on traveling to Germany and I am even more impressed by his specials on fascism with its focus on Nazism as well as other European fascists.

The emergence of the AfD and its growing popularity in Germany is unsurprising yet still shocking.

In 2017, ten AfD Bundestag members were found to have participated in
a closed Facebook group named "the Patriots" in which, among other
things, antisemitic, racist, pro-Nazi and conspiratorial posts were
widespread. One meme posted therein, which showed Holocaust victim
Anne Frank's face edited on a pizza box labelled "The Oven-fresh",
gained particular media attention.

I think Rick Steves programs covering fascism should have a wider audience.

Happy travels.

Russ, If I do have any antipathy, because of my generation I would have to attribute it, to some degree, to Major John Reisman, Captain Virgil Hilts and Col. Joseph Ryan and their men.

This book left an impression on me:

Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil is a 1963 book
by the philosopher and political thinker Hannah Arendt. Arendt, a Jew
who fled Germany during Adolf Hitler's rise to power, reported on the
trial of Adolf Eichmann, one of the major organizers of the Holocaust,
for The New Yorker. A revised and enlarged edition was published in
1964.

While I enjoyed Steve McQueen and the movie The Great Escape, I confess the war movie the dirty dozen was less memorable.

I may be misreading some of the comments here but I cannot help to fear that the consensus that fascism and Hitler was a horror to be understood and not diminished much less joked about is somewhat dwindling.

Happy travels.

Two of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s books make good primers before reading grizzly details. Discipleship, 1937, Ethics, 1949. I think many of my generation understood that my war movie references above were quite serious. We grew up in an atmosphere with a very definite message and some my age can't shake that influence.

re: Dirty Dozen, your first reference:
"Upon release, the film has granted positive reviews from critics. It holds an 82% rating on Rotten Tomatoes based on 55 reviews, with an average rating of 8.00/10. The critical consensus reads, "Amoral on the surface and exuding testosterone, The Dirty Dozen utilizes combat and its staggering cast of likable scoundrels to deliver raucous entertainment."

And your comment about this movie generating antipathy. Well, I must confess to be puzzled! Not the first time nor the last. I took it in the same vein as your whimsical observations in another thread poking fun at folks who travel with Eddie Bauer hydration devices. Funny indeed! (albeit at the expense of those who like to travel with quick and ready access to water.)

If you meant referencing the movie The Dirty Dozen as a serious way to emphasize the tragedies of the nazism/fascism and I missed it, please accept my apologies. If you were simply trying to add cheer to the subject and my humor bone failed to appreciate it, again my apologies. I understand some want us to move beyond associating Germany with Nazism. I understand folks are rightfully proud of things the country has done since WW II. I understand many Americans are tired of thinking of what happened to the Indians or of slavery or Jim Crow. I personally think traveling and seeing the "history" upclose is good and necessary. Our past defines us. I hope it guides us to be better now. A "broader perspective" to borrow a Rick Steves term.

But what do I know? Not much.

Happy travels.

With respect to the OP’s original question regarding bringing the 11- and 13-year-olds to Dachau, I have no input other than to comment that this is a very individual decision. I would not have brought any of my kids at that age, but that is me, and those are my kids. My then-16–year-old (well educated, well grounded, mature for her age) and I had a hard enough time at the Holocaust Museum in DC. Yes, it was the shoes that got us both.

However, I would like to chime in and say thank you for the many thoughtful contributions on this thread, especially those from MarkK, Russ, and Mr E. You have given me a lot to think about.

DebVT, thank you. This is always a tough subject for me, and one that I fight with on a daily basis and with varying degrees of sucess.

thousands sorts of bread and beer alone

Case in point: The rivalry between Cologne's Kolsch vs Dusseldorf's Altbier. And anytime you see a "kellerbier", order it.