Are we not allowed to talk about this subject? I haven't seen any postings.
I, for one, will think long and hard about traveling to either of those countries after what I read (to be fair, Egypt wasn't on my radar anyway). I think the governments did not take the women's assault stories seriously, and to add insult, who gives advice that "women should just stay arms length away from strangers".
There was a thread about the New Years Eve attacks in Germany but it seems to have disappeared, at least when I search for it I can no longer find it.
I think the governments did not take the women's assault stories seriously
If you follow the news from Germany, this is a BIG topic of conversation right now. The German government is taking this matter extremely seriously, particularly because of the alleged ethnic background of the attackers. The chief of police in Köln lost his job because of what was judged to be an inadequate initial response by his department.
From the NY Times today...Protests in Cologne After Assaults; Merkel Pledges New Laws
"Cologne police on Saturday said more than 100 detectives are assigned to the case and are investigating 379 criminal complaints filed with them, about 40 percent of which involve allegations of sexual offenses."
"In response to the incidents, Merkel said her CDU party on Saturday had approved a proposal seeking stricter laws regulating asylum seekers."
It doesn't sound like no one is taking it seriously. This story is not over - it's just the start.
It's wise to stay abreast of the news in Germany prior to a trip. There might be hot spots worth skipping - but I wouldn't necessarily axe an entire country... Today, water cannons dispersed Cologne citizens who objected too loudly to the public molestations and pickpocketing that went on there last week.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2016/01/09/cologne-germany-protest-refugee-shubert.cnn
The Webmaster deleted the thread (titled "I am Afraid!") that evolved into a conversation about the attacks in Germany.
I confused the two stories. The police in Egypt did not take the women seriously (The Guardian), the article states in part "
*women try to file complaints under more general harassment and assault laws, their cases are not taken seriously by police. "Cases that are reported to the police are handled in a disgusting manner," said Mariam Kirollos, an OpAntish organiser, and an activist for women's rights. "They are not taken seriously. In some cases, girls filing a police report are even harassed."
For most, the obstacles start long before they reach the police station, as passers-by try to excuse the harassers' behaviour. "People say, 'oh, he was poor, he didn't know what he was doing," said Bahgat.
"Primarily, the blame is on the woman. People always ask: what was she wearing?"".
I thought I read similar stories coming out of Germany initially, but I can't find the reference now.
It was deleted because it went beyond answering the OP's concerns and changed to a political/refugee/terrorism discussion.
I know a lot will change in the upcoming months but I was glad to be informed about the attacks. Right now our August plans have us flying into Düsseldorf and hopping on a train to Paris. We did this 3 years ago and like this route. There is a change of trains in Köln, then stop in Brussels before arriving at Gare du Nord in Paris. However we are seriously considering another idea altogether for our week before our house exchange in southern Germany to avoid this particular route. At least we have a lot of time and flexibility to decide. I appreciate these informational threads that help keep us up to date with news sources in Europe that we don't normally access. We are not afraid we're just keeping abreast of things.
"Right now our August plans have us flying into Düsseldorf and hopping on a train to Paris. We did this 3 years ago and like this route. There is a change of trains in Koln, then stop in Brussels before arriving at Gare du Nord in Paris. However we are seriously considering another idea altogether for our week before our house exchange in southern Germany to avoid this particular route. "
I appreciate the concerns you have, and I would not necessarily be planning a visit to Cologne at this point at all (maybe not Brussels either) - I just told another poster I wouldn't take my own daughter there now. That said, you are not visiting these places - there is no conceivable danger to you IMO if you are merely getting off the train and walking to another platform. You might even arrive and leave from the same platform, actually. I would not hesitate to make such a journey at all.
Then again, why not just fly into Paris?
@Russ when we did this route 3 years ago we had just enough time to dash across the square to sit under an umbrella for a half hour and enjoy a kölsch :-)
As to why we aren't flying into Paris, we want flexibility on where we spend our first week of our 5 week vacation. We reserved the Düsseldorf RT flights early on to take advantage of a central location, airport we like and to be able to use our FF miles for nonstop LAX to DUS flights. Sometimes we call booking our flight in the fall for a summer trip "parachuting in" not knowing quite where our house exchange will be but having a general idea. So now when we land in August we can go by train in any direction, just maybe not to the apartment we use in Paris near Canal St Martin. We're still thinking about it and other options.
"Sounds good don't go. Stay at home in America, the third worst country in the world for rapes... And yes the webmaster is deleting things on both sides of the argument, for example my post yesterday mocking people that are scared to go to europe because a couple hundred people are killed by terrorists..."
I don't think the reason has to do with one side, the other side, or both sides. Mocking (and sarcasm for that matter) probably isn't considered "polite" under community guidelines:
"Be polite. Comments that... disrespect others' opinions are not allowed."
https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/community-guidelines
@Russ. Thank you for writing the above post. Couldn't have said it better myself. Some of the comments I've read have bordered on cyber bullying.
My daughter is if off to Bonn for a semester of school next week. Bonn for those that don't know is 30 miles from Cologne. She has traveled with us in Europe on a number of occasions and spent a few months in on another study program a few years ago so she has some experience; still, I am nervous. I think its reasonable to be nervous. I would even find it reasonable to cancel the trip if that's what someone's comfort level dictates or change the plan to a place where the terrorism and migrant issues is less significant. Two things that make me particularly nervous is a general denial that anything significant is going on and what appears to be attempts to conceal some of what is going on. That just adds more uncertainty to the situation. I just cant make myself believe some parts of the world haven't changed for worst and aren't going to get better any time soon.
edith,
Just to clarify, the attacks in Egypt were against tourists in general, and not specifically women. The attackers were reportedly intent on kidnapping tourists, as well as harming them.
As my reply addresses your original question, hopefully this isn't against the forum rules. The situation with the immigrants in Germany and elsewhere is still a somewhat "fluid" situation, and no one can predict how this might evolve or what type of future incidents might occur. Rather than completely avoid a specific country, you might find that you can still have an enjoyable holiday there by visiting smaller towns rather than large cities such as Cologne. Of course there are no guarantees, but this will hopefully minimize your exposure to potential problems.
"Stay home in America...." You can be certain that this sort of news on incidents like that in Köln on New Years Eve ( as well as in Hamburg and Stuttgart) there will be more Americans deciding to staying home. The news will dictate whether to proceed with their travel plans or not. What's the percentage of Americans who hold a passport?
The Webmaster deleted the thread (titled "I am Afraid!") that evolved
into a conversation about the attacks in Germany.
Well, you're close... I deleted a thread that evolved into conversation that cast aspersions on all Muslims and immigrants. Bringing the Muslim faith into this was particularly irrelevant and inappropriate. This sort of slander of an entire group of people does not belong on our forum or anywhere else. The conversation also went down a political path that had little bearing to the event and nothing to do with travel.
We're fine with discussing events here as it pertains to travel. This thread has been mostly fine. Thanks for keeping it about travel.
As someone who has been harassed in literally every single city I've ever been to, even that bastion of etiquette, Tokyo, you all are living in a bubble if you think this is something new and/or reserved to the influx of migrants from the Middle East.
Not only have I had lurid comments yelled at me from the street in multiple cities, I've even been grabbed without my consent-that was actually down the street from my home.
If all of you cared about this problem, you would have cared about it before this horrible event happened.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
Emily: I understand your feelings and your statement that sex crimes are nothing new and happen everywhere. What happened this time got the attention of the media, Merkel, all the other government officials, and all of Germany for that matter... NOT IMO because the perps were foreigners (which wasn't immediately known) but because of the scope of the crimes, which all took place in brightly-lit, very busy places where folks typically wander late at night with a feeling of complete security.
As one of the Cologne police spokespersons indicated, in all of Germany's history there is no precedent for this sort of mass-molestation phenomenon prior to Cologne and Hamburg last week. 500+ separate crimes are currently being prosecuted in Cologne, nearly 200 in Hamburg. If hundreds of drunk football-fan-cavemen or Hells Angels had been behind this, the outrage would have been equally huge, because it's an absolutely outrageous occurrence.
Emily,
"If all of you cared about this problem, you would have cared about it before this horrible event happened."
I'm sorry to hear that you've experienced incidents of that type, and hopefully those won't occur again.
I don't think it's accurate to say that the group on the forum doesn't "care" about things of that type, as I for one would most certainly not condone or tolerate that sort of behaviour. I don't believe the comments on this thread are something that fits an "all of you don't care" label. The events which happened on New Year's in Germany and reportedly also in Sweden and other countries, are simply the topic of discussion at the moment because they're recent and also because of the number of victims involved.
I'm sure all of us here do care, but just want to understand why this happened and to address the concerns of people who may be thinking of travelling in those parts of Europe.
The mayor of Cologne has offered some advice for the safety of women in her city. I am sure that the advice made a lot of folks feel better and helped quell fears.
The post says "coordinated attacks" I'm not convinced that there was some great overlord directing people in all those cities across Europe to act in unison. BUT, I'm not sure what scares me more; that they were all well coordinated or that they all came up with the same idea independently. I'm certain its all been exaggerated.
What makes me the most nervous and is really on topic, is that the new media suppressed the news for several days which means listening to the news media in an attempt to make rational decisions may be very imperfect. If you suspect or fear that this is or could become a trend then you might want to avoid situations accordingly.
Similar attacks have happened in Sweden too. It has been under reported and the police are now catching flack for it. And similar to what happened in Cologne this appears to be coordinated and conducted by men with foreign backgrounds. This article is from Swedish Public Radio.
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6342236
I hope this doesn't contravene forum rules, but it would seem prudent that travellers have as much information as possible when planning travels. The well reported incidents in Cologne were apparently not the only ones.....
I'm not familiar with the "reporting style" of the Daily Mail, so don't know whether they tend to sensationalize stories more-or-less than other media outlets.
so don't know whether they tend to sensationalize stories
just a little. Sort of like Fox News holds itself in....
Nigel & emma,
Thanks for the feedback. The first test I normally apply to articles of this type would be "is the information factual". The story seemed to be accurate, albeit sensationalized but it helps to know what type of a "slant" the media source might add.
*EDIT: the information seemed to be factual, based on information I was seeing from a variety of other media sources. The article I linked above seemed to do well at pulling all the attacks together into a single story.
Was it factual?
Very true that the society is still one of Recht und Ordnung, even if the police in Köln was caught off guard by the magnitude of the attacks. They won't be at Karneval. Looking at the German press, listening to Deutsche Welle (in the original) to hear the discussions on the refugee crisis (Flüchlingskrise) as they put it does give you a different impression from that on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc.
Fred,
to hear the discussions on the refugee crisis (Flüchlingskrise) as
they put it does give you a different impression from that on FOX,
CNN, MSNBC, etc.
What is the difference? Very curious since my daughter is over there as we speak.
@ James...The chances are that your daughter may see these migrants only from afar, if at all. provided she doesn't go and linger at big train stations. The big difference in the news presentation, say watching Deutsche Welle, is the absence of drama. Call it hype, sensationalism, etc. That you see and sense in the reporting of the news. Listen to the tone of voice as the news is being delivered.
The authorities are looking at NYE seriously having been caught off guard. There is a saying which applies to the event on NYE..."einmal ist keinmal" Conceptually, it means "one time does not set a precedent." The concern now since the Köln incident is how preserve safety and order at Karneval. That event is huge. I've never been to it, only to mere Schützenfeste as far as the festivals and gatherings go. Compare roughly Karneval to Mardi Gras.
My advice is avoid, lay off of Karneval, maybe I'm being too conservative here. You'll run into a lot of "blue people" (blaue Leute), ie those who have had one too many, some staggering about, etc. You can bet there will be tons of security at Karneval given what happened NYE since it's unheard for the locals not to partake in Karneval in the Rhineland Still, a good number of locals will avoid Karneval given what happened.
If these migrants were mainly political refugees, they would have stayed in Greece or Turkey, the first place where they were no longer in harm's way. They saw Germany as the "land of milk and honey." and were given additional incentive by Merkel's welcoming rhetoric. The German news doesn't label them as "migrants " as do the US news agencies. The German news use the PC term Flüchtlingskrise (refugee crisis).
As far as the impact on tourist travel in Germany, practically every witness account here has been positive on the issue of safety concern and security. Of course, one can still be creative is getting from A to B by more of a circuitous route should the most direct be negatively affected.
Norma, there are Geneva and Dublin rules which talk about refugees. By Geneva rules: to be considered a political refugee you must stay in the first safe country and from there apply for the country where you want to live. Dublin states instead of first safe country first EU country. Those who go through numerous countries illegally are no more political refugees but economic migrants. Or is it just coincidence that Germany has if not highest then one of the highest welfare? So only those who got to Germany by air or by sea without putting foot on another EU country could be real political refugees. I should know little bit about this topic because many years ago I was one of them myself. We had to stay put in the first safe country and not wander all around Europe. To throw rocks at police, attack local women, not to be grateful for accommodation and food was unthinkable. We also did not have unrealistic expectations and what was our great advantage was that our culture was not that different. I feel for few real refugees there. Unfortunately many mainly young men are doing it for the rest of refugees more difficult and are triggering very potential backlash.
Looking at the German press, listening to Deutsche Welle (in the
original) to hear the discussions on the refugee crisis
(Flüchlingskrise) as they put it does give you a different impression
from that on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc.
Many Germans don't trust the media anymore. Until Cologne we had a conspiracy of silence here. Both the media and the police were pressured not to publish any bad reports about migrants. The first articles about Cologne appeared 4 days after the incidents, reports about similar cases in other cities only showed up after 6, 8 or even 10 days.
Well, it seems that Germans are finally getting that P.C. is not the way to face the problem. Now it remains to be seen what will be the punishment. Anything short of deportation would not be deterrent for future behavior.
There are a lot of things the Germans cannot do? What if the German police had behaved towards the migrants like that of the Hungarians when the migrants were throwing rocks at them and refusing to follow police instructions? Would the reaction at home and in the international press have been the same? I think not.
Why do we talk around the opinions of natives so much on these forums? Martin is a German in Germany, or at least a person living there. No one has responded to him directly. I see the forum ignoring natives on the much more minor subject for how tourist should dress too. People on the ground know. From a distance we can only guess.
If the German government is repressing news of real dangers for political reasons, that is travel news we should be paying attention to. Mass sexual harassment and rape is a frightening prospect. Mass sexual harassment and rape where the government in intent on carpeting it over is much, much, more so.
As the news comes out, the victims were women between 18 and 30 (plus a few white men who defended them) and the perpetrators were men of African and Middle Eastern decent between 16 and 35, most legal residents of German or even citizens but many illegal immigrants. Theft was the primary object. Sexual assault appears to be only an added bonus and a distraction. Fire crackers were used in the same way. That new in Germany and what's new in Germany is cultural (not racial, cultural). I doubt the women's skin color had much if anything to do with it. This kind of rape happens to brown women in the Middle East and Africa. It's cultural. If Germany doesn't address the cultural issues (let alone if it pretends they don't exist) things will get worse.
Right now, as a plump (if still pretty) woman in her 50s, I don't see myself as a victim of this kind of rape. I have two daughters, who will be 17 and 19 when we arrive in Munich and Cologne this summer. For them I worry. I think we will all be fine, but I wouldn't take my girls out late at night or to a beer festival for anything. My PCness does not extend to my girl's safety.
To be clear though, this is not paranoia. My 19 year old may travel to Berlin and Brussels on her own and in part on our dime, so I do have some choice in the matter. She's a grownup. I'll send her with advice to be prudent about what time she goes where and on what holiday. I will not tell her to shun German, only to be careful.
But if more covered up news is only revealed by social media, I will think about shunning Germany. Danger from thugs is one thing, danger from thugs when the authorities pretend it isn't happening is much, much, worse.
I have viewed Europe as in many ways safer than the U.S.--- higher risk of pickpocketing (mostly because tourists are more vulnerable) and lower risk in fpr violent crime. But if Europeans ignore and coverup violent crime, that perception will change.
Fred, if migrants in Germany start to misbehave and German police acts decisively like Hungarian police IMHO there will be much less uproar about it because people finally started to look at problem more realistically and you cannot tolerate thugs in the name of P.C. They only understand force. Anything else and they just laugh at your face.
Jen, I think that you and your daughters will be OK in Germany. It looks like they relieved German police from restrictions imposed on them by P.C. and believe me, these guys know how to restore law and order. P.C. people (there are fewer of them in Germany now) need to realize this is not about race not even about religion but purely about unacceptable behavior.
Planning a first trip to Munich or the Black Forest area. Are these considered safe areas for tourists (family) at this time?
Germany is safe almost everywhere. Exercise caution around places where single young male migrants are accommodated. Especially at night. Locals will be able to tell you where.
Ilja I know you want to be fair and objective, so it should be to be cautious around any large groups of single men and it should be recognized when describing any heighted danger around the migrants that that heightened danger is just as likely, and maybe right now, more likely to be the result of reprisals on the migrants and you getting caught in the middle of the situation.
@ Ilja...I should have been clearer in what I stated above. I meant if the German police back in Sept had tried to keep the migrants out with the force used as did the Hungarians. Now if the German police had acted realistically on NYE, ie not being caught off guard, some of the crimes might have been prevented. True, the thugs only understand force or the threat of it as long your credibility is not called into question and that you aren't viewed as a "paper tiger." More that other countries' police force the German police use of force even in preventing violent crime like that on NYE have to be tempered other wise they risk denunciations by the international press.
I hope to spend some time in Germany this spring. Based on what I've read recently and what I know altogether now, I think I agree with Ilja that Germany is pretty safe "almost everywhere" and that certain cautions are warranted. I've got a few of those in mind. But as informed as I think I am, I have to admit to some insecurity about what I actually know. Jen writes,
If the German government is repressing news of real dangers for
political reasons, that is travel news we should be paying attention
to... if more covered up news is only revealed by social media, I will
think about shunning Germany. Danger from thugs is one thing, danger
from thugs when the authorities pretend it isn't happening is much,
much, worse.
Fact is, the social media may be in bed with the authorities; the German government has persuaded Google and Facebook to "crack down on the rise in anti-foreigner comments in German on the web..."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-internet-idUSKBN0TY27R20151215
So can we Germany-bound folks really count on a balanced mix of comments on social media?
I hate hate-speech and online threats like anyone else. But there's a big difference between those and fact-based speech that might put this group or that group in a bad light (free speech.) I have to wonder... if today's Germany is working to steer public opinion through information control, is it not foolish to rely on the security picture painted by the Germany/Google/Facebook cabal?
It's conceivable that even a post like this one could be in jeopardy. I have recently witnessed a LOT of post deletions on other travel forums. Who knows what they're deleting on the political forums?
Kudos to Rick Steves for sticking with its OWN guidelines. Hope that continues.
On my last trip I spent some time in Berlin, Hamburg, and Cologne. Glad I did those then before recent events and before the subsequent flare ups from German citizens. This time I'll be focused on rural Germany. I think this is a reasonable strategy under current circumstances.
