Bayern Day Rail Ticket E25 - train timings!

Comply with the rules, of course. Buy your Bayern ticket as well as a separate ticket to whatever station you like with a train departure from 9:00 onward - it's only a couple of Euros more to avoid the chance of a hefty fine and to show respect for the system, without which it would be an expensive car rental or a very long walk.

If you want to save €, buy the Regio-ticket Allgäu-Schwaben for the trip to Füssen instead of the Bayern Ticket. €20 from a Munich ticket machine. Plus your ticket to Pasing, of course.

ah, you spotted their cunning timetable. I often mean to check how many important tourist trains do this, there is one from Berchtesgaden that does the same thing (9:01 at Bad Reichenhall!)

There is no german word for discretion (OK there may be, but no-one there understands it). The ticket control staff are like robots, it is the rules.

But the question you should be asking is, do you need to use Hbf?? Is there somewhere closer to Ost or Pasing? And when I say closer, include the long walk at Hbf because both of those trains leave from annex stations which are some way down the adjacent platforms of the main station. Both stations have their own local trasnport links and it may be more convenient to avoid Hbf.

If the answer is Hbf is best then buy the extra ticket. And when you get the Bayern Ticket don't forget to write passenger names in the blank boxes provided, that's another rule.

Yes, it is just 2.80 EUR more for the ticket to either Ostbahnhof or Pasing. Have that MVV ticket and the Bayern Ticket on you when you board the train and you are good to go.

"There is no german word for discretion..."

On the trains, they keep it very equitable. You either have a valid ticket, or you do not. No excuses, no whining. It's the ultimate in fairness - whether young or old, forgetful or meticulous, tourist or native, trickster or honest person, all people asked to show their tickets are treated the same.

There is a German word for discretion borrowed from the French but in terms of diction would not apply here. "...this is rather inconvenient." For them or for you? Basically, whose problem is it? Yours or theirs? This inconvenience?

Many thanks for your responses. I wonder if they do this on purpose or even if they really realise the inconvenience of these timings v the cheap E25 deal? Anyway, as many of you know, DB run many of the trains in the UK including Arrive Trains Wales. When I pointed out to the management that a deal they had with a Monday to Friday time limit of 9.30am + > which meant an important ‘useful’ train to Chester left at 9.20am, they changed the time to 9am for the deal.

Russ - the Regio Allgau ticket that you suggest for E20 does indeed cover Fussen. However, trains appear to use 2 routes from Munich to Fussen and the ticket you mention only appears to cover the westerly route. So, probably best to pay the E5 more have the option of both routes.

"...trains appear to use 2 routes from Munich to Fussen and the ticket you mention only appears to cover the westerly route."

That's news to me. What have you seen that makes it "appear" that way? AFAIK there's only one train route to Füssen - you will have to travel through the Allgäu-Schwaben zone via Buchloe and Biessenhofen, or you will not get there. It's possible to use the "easterly" north-south train route in the direction of Garmisch, and then to use a connection by bus to reach Füssen from that area, but I doubt you're interested in buses, or in turning a 2-hr. trip into a 4-hr trip.

If you want a second train + bus alternative for reaching Füssen - a scenic one - use that easterly route to Garmisch and then the Ausserfernbahn route through Austria and finally a bus to Füssen. The Bayern Ticket covers the trains in this case - but not the bus leg to Füssen.

"So, probably best to pay the E5 more have the option of both routes."

Well, even if I'm way off base and there is some brand new train route to Füssen, you can't take BOTH routes, right? Presumably you will get on one train or the other right after you buy your ticket at Munich station. If you pick that "westerly" route, buy the €20 ticket.

Wait - you aren't pre-purchasing any of these day passes online, are you? That's a bad idea usually. Pre-purchase won't save you a cent, and you suddenly have a non-refundable ticket.

No Russ, I am not pre-booking as I know I can just show up and buy the ticket on the day. ( I am figuring out what is the best way of visiting Bavaria).

What got me thinking that 2 routes went from Munich to Fussen was the fact that some trains are direct and others require a change en-route. I have just looked back at the names of the stops en-route and now realise that the train options are indeed on the same route.

I have just been checking for Munich to Regensburg and some of the trains were marked ALX. I presume the Bayern Day ticket is valid on these - if they comply with the after 9am weekdays rule?

Many thanks for coming back on this.

some of the trains were marked ALX. I presume the Bayern Day ticket
is valid on these

Yes. ALX trains are regional trains in Bavaria.

If you take the 8:55 Meridian train to Salzburg, it's first stop at Munich East (Ost) is an MVV "kurzstrecke" (short trip) ticket for 1.40€, not 2,80€ .

when I say closer, include the long walk at Hbf because both of those
trains leave from annex stations

I would hardly call those a "long walk" (I've done both).

If you take the "north-south" route, you don't have to go all the way to Garmisch-Partenkirchen. You could get off at Murnau and take the train to Oberammergau, or get off in Oberau and take the bus to Oberammergau. The bus from Garmisch to Füssen stops in Oberammergau.

It you want to go the Außerfernbahn route through the Tirol, go on to Pfronten-Ried or Pfronten-Weißbach. The buses from there to Füssen are covered by the Bayern-Ticket.

If you take the 8:55 Meridian train to Salzburg, it's first stop at Munich East (Ost) is an MVV "kurzstrecke" (short trip) ticket for 1.40€, not 2,80€ .

I believe, according to the MVV, a "kurzstrecke" is a maximum of 4 stops on the S-bahn, including the initial boarding stop and the destination stop. The stops in this direction are Hauptbahnhof, Karlsplatz, Marienplatz, Isartor, Rosenheimer Platz, Ostbahnhof. That is 6 stops, so it is not a "kurzstrecke". If you went to Ostbahnhof ahead of time and boarded an S-bahn at Marienplatz, that would be a "kurzstrecke". The Meridian train does not stop at these intermediate stations, but they count when calculating the MVV ticket price.

The 8:55 Meridian train does not go via Marienplatz. Only the S-Bahn go through the tunnel under the town. The Meridian train goes from the Hbf to Ost on a rail line that goes first to the west, then around south of town to Ost, with no stops on the way. The MVV website says the fare for that train from the Hbf to Ost is a kurzstrecke.

BTW, when the second tunnel under town is completed (2024?), trains will go under town from the Hbf to Ost and on to the airport.

A kurzstrecke is four stops on a tram or bus, but only two stops on the U-/S-Bahn or express bus, but apparently it is the number of stops on a specific route, whether the train stops at them or not. From the MVV webstie, "Haltestellen, die ohne Halt durchfahren werden, sind mitzuzählen." The 8:53 to Füssen doesn't stop from the Hbf to Pasing, but you cannot use a kurzstrecke ticket to Pasing. The train goes to Pasing via Hackerbrücke, Donnersbergerbrücke, Hirschgarten, and Laim.

we still don't have an answer about whether the journey needs to start at Hbf.

As for ATW, believe me (I used work for them) DB don't run the company, they just take the profits! They haven't a clue what goes on there. But for the fare restriction quoted ATW would have had the authority to alter one of their own fares, the 9AM rule on BayernTicket is a national standard used by all German states for these statewide passes but the ticket is basically controlled by the Bavarian state government, which is why it is valid on Alex, BOB, Meridian and all city networks.

Many thanks for the responses. SteveB - so, people like DB pitch to run a British train company/franchise, set-up local management and then just take the profits. Being as ATW have old overcrowded trains - due to the Department for Transport allowing them to have a 15 year no growth franchise - it really makes me wonder why DB are contenders for the new contract starting in 2018? I suppose they weren’t obligated to do anything.

Having been on the wrong end of several British DfT franchise decisions since the government decided to nominally give control of the railways to private company (directed so closely by that same government so that you can't sneeze without permission from Whitehall) I can assure you that it doesn't have a lot to do with whether or not things are done right or wrong - a completely political decision every time.

No they don't set up local management. That's a misconception. When the BR divisions were privatised the structure was inherited by the franchises - remember the bid to run the franchise, they donlt really own anything (the stations are leased from Newtork Rail and the trains are elased from finance companies, usually guaranteed with state funds).

Arriva was one of Britains biggest transport companies and was becoming a threat to DB within Germany, having won several bus and rail contracts. So DB made the stock holders an offer and bought the company. At which point the German competition regualtor made them sell the german parts so now the ex Arriva trains in Germnay are run by a division of Italian state rail (who promptly failed to get a renewal of the most important contract).

Back to the UK. The high level owners can appoint their own directors but the bulk of the franchise is highly regulated and has to be kept so that if the owner goes bust (happened twice), reneges on the contract because it doesn't make enough profit (several times) or is thrown out for being useless (at least twice) the government can take over and teh passengers don't get stranded. Most staff have protected contracts which transfer if the franchsie gets a new owner. So when DB took over Arriva Group the previous staff in the Welsh franchise transferred - including the whole board of directors (although the MD didn't last long). As long as the profit return is as expected DB show no interest. As for the overcrowding and old trains, the franchise specification was set by civil servants who vastly underestimated rising demand. What was asked for in the contract was delivered and in fact some extra capacity has been added but Arriva are delivering what they should - the problem is the government didn't ask for enough and since most Welsh routes are loss making and subsidised there is no commercial incentive for Arriva to spend their own money, or since the take over, DBs money. The new franchise is already in trouble, it is supposed to be devolved to the Welsh government in Cardiff (who have no-one with the right experience) but they have a battle with the mandarins of London who won't let go and are delaying things. Once this argument is sorted there will be a specification published which should set the capacity and quality of trains - who knows what they will ask for?! If they ask for new trains all bidders will include them. Past performance in any franchise plays little part in deciding new ones. As Nigel says it's all a game played by politicians and civil servants, the main one is being paid nearly twice what his Minister gets (and considerably more than the Prime Minister) and most passengers/tax payers don't even know his job exists.

Since I think that James (OP) has had his questions answered (right James?) and we seem to have wandered down the road of British Train Operating Companies and their franchises, I'll just mention the fact - and it is a fact - that the troubles besetting commuters on Southern Rail over the last couple of years are almost all down to requirements set down by the government on the franchise holder after a little government paper called the McNulty report which basically advocates running trains on a shoestring with relatively very few staff in the least expensive way possible. That's also why train companies and the Tube are closing station booking offices - to such an extent that one of them in the East of England (Abellio, owned by the Dutch railway NS) wants to close all station facilities except at 6 stations, down from several hundred. The industrial relations problems at Merseyrail and Northern, and the nearly invisible problems at Virgin West Coast (people think they just cancel trains without looking for why) are in a very similar vein.

So when people complain that train companies are making things worse, it is worth looking for the puppeteer's strings.

This is not advocating any side in the fights, except better service for the passengers - simply the observations of an old hand professional railwayman.

I'm still thinking it is a 2.80 EUR MVV Inner Zone ticket from Hauptbahnhof to Ostbahnhof. That is what the MVV route planner says it is. If you want to call it a Kurzstrecke, go ahead and explain your reasoning to the ticket inspector.

Many thanks Sam for coming back. The odd thing is that on the DB site, you can’t put in for a ticket from Munich Hbf to Paling or Ost. Anyway, not to quibble about a couple of bucks!

Many thanks to Nigel & SteveB for your detailed responses concerning the ATW franchise situation. I have been trying to figure out what has been going on from the railforums site in the Uk, of which I am sure you are aware. It seems to me that the Welsh ‘Government’ wish to take control of the valley lines north of Cardiff and run some sort of tram or tram-train system and take away Network Rail responsibility for the infrastructure. Network Rail wish to retain the infrastructure on the Barry line as this is the diversion for the main line between Cardiff & Bridgend. In the meantime, nothing gets done. At this rate, they will still be using Pacers in 20 years time!

Yes, Sam, without using "advance options", the Journey Planner will only show you the S-/U-Bahn connections from the Hauptbahnhof to Ostbahnhof, and those are one-zone tickets. It probably will not show you the Meridian train. However, if you use the "advanced options" option and deselect the S-Bahn and U-Bahn, it will show you the next best option, which is the Meridian regional train that takes the southern bypass around town without any stations (it goes past, but not through, the S-Bahn statons at Hackerbrücke and Donnersbergerbrücke). For that trip only, the Hbf to Ost is shown as a kurzestrecke, for 1,40€.

Actually, you get the same result (I earlier said you couldn't) for the train from the Hbf to Füssen that leaves Pasing for Füssen at 9:00. That train goes past the stations at Hackerbrücke, etc. A kurzstrecke ticket is also valid on the RE between the Hbf and Pasing.

The odd thing is that on the DB site, you can’t put in for a ticket from Munich Hbf to Paling or Ost.

Just like you can't "put in for" a ticket from Frankfurt (M) Hbf to Mainz. DB doesn't try to compete for ticket sales for local transport within individual Verkehrsverbünde (VV). Since they don't sell the tickets, they don't show prices. For that you have to go to the RMV or MVV website.

So, A Kurzstrecke it is at E1.40. Many thanks for all the advice.

Remember, you can only use the Kurzstrecke ticket for the regional train. If you go to Pasing or Ost with the S-Bahn, you will need a full 1 zone ticket for 2,80€.

I would not have thought about the Kurzstrecke ticket except I looked at the MVV fare for a day when they were apparently working on the tunnel between the Hbf and Ost, so the S-Bahn between those stations was not running, otherwise the site would have shown me the S-Bahn for 2,80€. Instead it only showed me the regional train, for which the fare was a Kurzstrecke ticket at 1,40€.

So, James, thanks for asking the question when you did. I learned something.