Bavaria to Austria itinerary?

Very confusing itinerary, and a lot of backtracking.

Frankfurt to Koblenz - North
Koblenz to Bingen - South
Bingen to St Goar - North
St Goar to Bingen - South
Bingen to Bachrach (or Boppard) - North

You can simplify this and save a lot of time. From Frankfurt go to Bingen. take the boat ride and then the train back. Then rent a bike in Bingen and ride the path along the river. There are a couple places right there that rent bikes for this. (Or you could rent the bikes and take them on the boat, and ride back to Bingen.) then go up to Koblenz by train (or Boppard, or Bachrach).

From Koblenz to Dinklesbuhl is, at best, a 4 hour drive. With all the road work you should plan on closer to 6 hours driving. You might want to look at taking the train.

For a lake you should consider Chiemsee. (Most of the war was over by the time southern Bavaria and Austria were "liberated".)

Add a half day in Augsburg, it is very historic.

Hi KGC, thank you very much for such helpful and logical advice!! We will take the train from Frankfurt to Bingen and do the cruise and biking from Bingen. So we will need 2 nights Bingen and stay another night in Bacharach or Boppard. (part of the reasoning for our original plan was that we thought Koblenz would be best place for car pick-up and had read that best part of the cruise was south to north).

You mention taking the train up to Koblenz from Bingen. Do you think we should do that or rent a car in Bingen and drive north? We do not feel we have to tour Koblenz although it looks interesting- would rather spend time in the small towns on the Rhine. SO maybe just pick the car up there if it makes more sense than picking it up in Bingen. The pricing looks similar but the rental offices are about 8.3 miles from Bingen so guess that would be a taxi.
Lake Chiemsee looks stunning- thanks for that suggestion too.
Thanks.

I like Koblenz, more than Koln. But if you don't want to see the Eck, or the Fortress, there's no major reason you should pass something else you'd rather do. I wouldn't go there just to rent a car. If you want to pick up the car in Bingen check and see if they will bring the car to you. Even if they don't the taxi shouldn't be more than 20 euro.

The drive along the river, on either side, is not difficult. the road is good, but due to it going through all the small towns it is slow due to speed regulations and tourists. The train is actually faster than by car.

And while I love Burg Eltz I'm not sure I'd use that as a reason to rent a car. You might want to look at going to Wurzburg or Nuremberg instead. Yes, they are bigger cities, but they have a fantastic castles, great walks along the river, and the Altstadt's are worth visiting. But, even better for you, you can easily get from there to Dinklesbuhl by train.

Train to Dinkelsbuhl ? I don’t think so

The only way to get to Dinkelsbühl by public transport is a, not exactly convenient, train / bus combo. From Nuremberg take the train to Ansbach or Dombühl, then take the bus to “Dinkelsbühl Gymnasium”. From Würzburg depending on the time of day (1) train to Ansbach, bus to “Dinkelsbühl Gymnasium”, (2) train to Ansbach, change to Dombühl, bus to “Dinkelsbühl Gymnasium”, (3) train to Ellwangen, bus to “Dinkelsbühl ZOB”.

Dinkelsbuhl (2-3 hours drive). See some of Rothenberg. Overnight Dinkelsbuhl (heard Rothenberg super crowded but guess most places will be)

I was originally planning to stay in Wurzburg/Bamberg and do a day trip to Rothenberg but then decided to stay in Rothenberg for one night. I keep reading Rothenberg is great at night/morning after all the tourists are gone. Plus we're driving and I didn't want another 2.5 hours in the car going back and forth.

Any reason why you chose Dinkelsbuhl? You didn't mention doing anything there, nor does it seem like a convenient base for the activities you mentioned. If you instrad stayed one night in both Rothenberg and Nuremberg, you'd save a couple hours of driving. I know people say one night can be a bit rushed (FTR, I'm only doing one night in both Roth and Fussen) but it beats commuting back and forth multiple times.

Overnight two nights Boppard or Bacharach? not sure yet- have to find hotel- hope for one with river view.

Boppard has riverfront hotels with views. Lots of restaurants along the river promenade there as well. Bacharach does not... the hotels are all set back at a fair distance from the riverfront behind the town wall and railway.

St. Goar also has riverfront hotels. The Rheinhotel St Goar (where we stayed) and the Hotel Rheinfels sit right next to each other just steps from the river with a view of Katz castle and other extra-nice scenery on the opposite riverbank. Both the ferry crossing and the K-D boat dock are just steps away as well, and both hotels are well reviewed. The train station is also very close by.

St. Goar is the end of the line for most of the cruise boats that leave from Bingen. So it is feasible that you could take the train from FRA to Bingen, then board a cruise boat for St. Goar as part of your transportation. Step off the boat there, and you are "home."

From St. Goar, the towns of Bacharach, Oberwesel and Boppard can all be reached by a train ride of 5-10 minutes. It's a very central and convenient base town. See map of the left-bank railway:

https://www.duesseldorf-blog.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/karte.gif

Bingen also has a waterfront hotel or two with great views near the boat docks; pics of the NH Bingen hotel:

https://dynamic-media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/06/1a/df/01/nh-bingen.jpg?w=900&h=-1&s=1

https://media-cdn.holidaycheck.com/w_1024,h_768,c_fit,q_80/ugc/images/49ae7b3e-32a5-3d2a-8987-6a0c2650c5d2

I would book just one hotel for all three nights on the Rhine.

Nights 4-6: I would take the train from the Rhine to the Romantic Road town of Würzburg for 3 nights there. Many people have been convinced that all the nice towns in Bavaria have lined up on the Romantic Road, which just isn't so... nixit71 mentioned BAMBERG, which is a very special place (with UNESCO World Heritage status.) From Würzburg, day trips by train to Bamberg and to the old walled towns of Rothenburg and lesser-known Iphofen are very easy... about 1 hour or less each way to all. Würzburg itself is interesting (Residenz + more) with numerous hotel options.

Train map for this area: https://revista.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/1.jpg
Photos of Iphofen... scroll through 2 pages: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/2985-iphofen-galerie/

How early do you plan to be walking around Rothenburg in the morning or how late in the evening? There are both early morning and late evening trains that run between Rothenburg and Würzburg, so sleeping in Würzburg won't stop you from seeing R'burg (which doesn't take all that long) when the tour-bus crowds are not there.

Apology for the bad "train map" link in my previous post. It is fixed now.

I had forgotten about the bus to Dinklesbuhl. It's been a while, partially mitigated by my preference for Nordlingen, which can be reached by train (I was there 2 months ago).

Russ has some good ideas, and you should look close a the time spent getting from one place to another. You don't want the main memory of the trip to be riding trains.

Thank you very much everyone! So much good information that we would never have known.

Rhine:
Looked into Bingen as a base- but the car rental choices look better (Expedia) in Koblenz. I corresponded with Hotel Rheinfels in St Goar and they have availability and it looks perfect-thanks! St Goar looks like a really nice base and it's such a nice town. So now we are thinking of taking the train from Frankfurt to Bingen and the cruise up to St Goar and stay for 3 nights. We would ride up to Koblenz on day 2 or 3 and get a car and see the fortress and then go back down the Rhine looking at castles. And bike at some point. We're so used to having a car but now see that train travel is very popular. Hesitate to do it all the way to Romantic Road though so think we should get a car to go there. I know we have to work on the distances and daily itineraries.
Romantic Road:
We only had picked Dinkelsbuel because of hearing how busy Rothenberg gets. But will take the advice to visit it ealry evening or am- thanks. After looking at the pictures of Iphofen (love it- so interesting!) - going to look into staying there as a base for 3 nights and visit Rothenberg and Nuremberg from there. Also will look into Bamberg and Wurzberg.

I just returned from a trip which included rail travel along the Rhine (Koblenz - Boppard -St Goar - Bacharach- Bingen - Mainz)

My train travel continued to Stuttgart and the Neckar River towns from Mainz. Later we traveled Salzburg - Zell am See - Vienna by train. But I might just as easily have taken the train as you intend to travel... from Mainz for a Würzburg - Rothenburg - Nuremberg - Munich trip and from there on to Salzburg - Zell am See - Vienna.

You don't have to pick up a car in Koblenz or Bingen or anywhwere else for your trip unless you are just wanting to drive. With 5400 stations or so, Germany has trains to almost everywhere. The only place that sticks out as tricky to reach is Dinkelsbühl. You could rent a car for one day in Würzburg for that if it's really important to you.

Hi Russ, thanks will talk to my son and consider trains. It's also a gret way to meet people rather than being a foreigner in a car. I haven't been to Germany sice my honeymoon (1992)- we got a car after doing the Glacier Express from Zermatt to St Moritz- that was wonderful. we soon got bored in St Moritz, not being able to afford fine dining and not knowing enough about hiking etc back then so we got a car and drove to Munich, Salzberg and Vienna. No internet back then.
But you reminded me of Zell! In 1976 after graduating high school, a few friends and I rented a car and drove the Rhine (memory is why I want my son to see it) and we also spent time in Zell. We had enjoyed Zeller Schwartzer Katz back in Brooklyn, New York ! where I lived at the time and wanted to visit it's hometown. Zell was such a great little town, I still remember the hillside vineyards and wonderul random place we stayed - just had a sign that said "Zimmer". No internet! And lotsof black cats hanging from signs.

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/19/f5/07/d9/caption.jpg

Zell is a decent town but it's that whole part of the river surrounding Zell... the whole of it between Cochem and Bernkastel, actually - that's seriously enchanting... the hikes, the views, the bike paths, the vineyards, the river vibe, the laid-back people. I think I beat you to the Mosel by 3 years or so; Bernkastel left me breathless, and I've been returning to that part of the river like a moth to a porchlight ever since.

https://media02.stockfood.com/largepreviews/MjE4Mjg1ODQ1OQ==/70414789-Blick-auf-Bernkastel-Kues-mit-Burg-Landshut-am-Abend-Mosel-Rheinland-Pfalz-Deutschland.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6b/1c/8d/6b1c8d19154fa1f52d5ca8856458f89a.jpg

https://img.fotocommunity.com/reichsburg-cochem-mosel-d3c1f03b-fafb-44ea-ae46-aa69ba7ebdb7.jpg?height=1080

https://www.rlp-tourismus.com/fileadmin/_processed_/c/c/csm_Mosel_Aussichtturm-Prinzenkopf_Zell_Ketz_1516026444_88b1859f40.jpg

Most recently we stayed in Kröv, which was new to us, then caught a day cruise boat from there (an outing my wife is still talking about) to Bernkastel. No black cats in Kröv, where the most prominent wine label displays this bit of artwork.... maybe you've seen it...

https://images.vivino.com/thumbs/i_fPRvcCTVm6Fr7sRx3Pnw_375x500.jpg

Anyway, in light of your previous time there and your trip to Burg Eltz, I'm a little surprised that you aren't including the Zell/Mosel area on this trip. The bikig there IMO is more enjoyable than the Rhine.

Russ isn't wrong. The Mosel valley is wider than the popular part of the Rhine, and the bike paths are well maintained. I've been up there twice this year and I love just finding a quiet place and watching the river traffic. It is a bit easier to do the Rhine by train though.

This is the bike path through Cochem about a month ago:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/8ZtZKC4.jpg[/img]

Thank you all for the posts- I've been offline- detoured tending to some mundane tasks. We have decided to get a car because we only have 11 nights and think it will provide the most flexibility- plus it's hard to teach a old dog new tricks (I'm 69).
We changed the itinerary - how does this look:
Day 1- arrive Frankfurt- train to Koblenz- stay at Hotel Morjan - location near the Fortress, see Deutches Elk
Day 2- pick up car and drive to Eltz Castle- skip the tour, hike up to castle and then head down the Rhine to hotel for 2 nights (undecided- looking at Bellevue Rheinhotel- Boppard (Hotel Rheinlust sold out), Hotel Rheinfels- St. Goar or Hotel Im Schulhaus-Bacharach (out of town but views, bikes). Afternoon look at castles, maybe bike
Day 3- Train to Bingen from St. Goar. See Rheinsfel's Castle after cruise. Cruise up to St. Goar. Bike, hike, look at castles.
Day 4- Drive to Rothenberg area. Undecided where to spend two nights. It's busy last week of August so have to see what we can get.
Skipping Wurzberg to have more time in Romantic Road area. Changed Switzerland to Austria. We have both seen Neuschwanstein.
Day 5- day trip to Nuremberg, back to our hotel on Romantic Road late afternoon and explore area
Day 6- drive to Austria- Wolfgangzee Lake. Looking at Hotel Furien- on the lake for 4 nights
Day 7,8,9 - Wolfganzee Lake- hiking, kayak or paddleboard. Excursions to Eagles Nest, Salzberg (brief visit)
Day 10,11- Munich- stay in Marienplatz area. We both have been there before so 2 nights is enough. Bike English Garden (Mike's bike rentals)
Day 12- New York.

Do you think it's too much for 11 nights?

Thanks.

Just a quick note that the walk to Burg Eltz is, from the parking lot, mostly downhill. It's steep and, if raining, slippery. Going back up is challenging. You can catch a shuttle van for 2 Euro. There's not much to see without the castle tour (which is only 7 rooms also) or the separate Treasury. I advise you to carry something to drink at a minimum as the castle gets very crowded and the seating for their food concession is limited.

If you have a car, and can't find a hotel right in Rothenberg, look at Bad Windsheim or Ansbach, both of which are close and quite easy to also get to Nuremberg from.

Thank you KGC, noting that!

I have never stayed here, but Hotel-Gasthof Falkenstein am Wolfgansee always looked inviting from the ferry.

drive to Austria

It is my understanding that Austria requires an International Driving Permit, Germany does not.