Austria -> Germany Itinerary Double Check

Since you are passing through Salzburg on the way from Vienna to Munich, why not specify a stopover there and do your SOM tour, then continue on to Munich?
Maybe challenging to find a place to drop a rental car in Bacharach. Mainz instead and travel by train to Bacharach. By taking a cruise to St Goar from there, you are skipping half of the Rhine Gorge between Bingen and Bacharach.

If you only cruise the Rhein from Bacharach to St. Goar, a stretch that takes perhaps 10 min. on the train, you miss 90% of the castles. Start in either Bingen or Rüdesheim and cruise north to St. Goar or even Boppard. Seems a shame to miss all those castles.

"What am I missing that you loved?"

For me and the other Germany-lovers here, that's an invitation to turn your itinerary completely on its head.

IME there is much in Germany to love - and much to discover. Your preliminary plans look to be driven pretty much by Rick Steves' itinerary suggestions, not by any particular set of interests that YOU and your family members might have. All we know now is that you like museums. What sort of "museums" interest you? Art? What kind? History? What era? Cars? Local rural life? Germany has an astounding variety of museums - I saw a museum dedicated to the lowly carp in one town. Anything else besides museums?

So it would be helpful to know more about what you bring to the table before making suggestions.

That said... here's my impression on your current plan and a suggestion or two that I can't suppress. Perhaps they'll give you more to consider:

• Vienna is huge and time consuming. I found it a bit dull. 2 days there... it's not much if you really want to see it.
• A SOM tour is not enough for Salzburg and surroundings - plenty of hiking and great castles around there too. I would be tempted to spend 3-4 nights in/near Salzburg - perhaps in lieu of Vienna.
• The newly-restored Margravial Opera House in Bayreuth, Germany is an outstanding place - and a UNESCO World Heritage site. And it's in one of Germany's most interesting areas - Franconia (Northern Bavaria) - and the towns of Nuremberg and Bamberg (also UNESCO WH status for its old town.)
  
• Like Munich, many large cities were destroyed and rebuilt in/after WW II. You might enjoy visiting some of the German towns cities that have remained mostly intact for many centuries. Besides Bamberg, Consider Regensburg - even closer to Munich. Also consider smaller intact towns that dot the "half-timbered-house" roads around Germany. The ones here aren't far from Baden-Baden: https://www.deutsche-fachwerkstrasse.de/en/Routes_Cities/From-the-River-Neckar-to-the-Black-Forest-and-Lake-Constance.html
• Baden-Baden has been a casino town spa treatment center for Europe's elite forever - but it strikes me as a peculiar destination for a family vacation and it really has little or nothing to do with the Black Forest. I really don't know how/why it made its way into Rick's book. Suggest instead that you look into Gutach and the Vogtsbauernhof Museum, in the central Black Forest and right on the scenic Black Forest Railway.
• Ludwig's "castles" (late 19th-century palaces, not real castles) attract lots of foreign tourists trying to make connections with their Walt Disney childhoods, but the should not be seen as substitutes for Germany's fine collection of real castles. If you will be on the Rhine (Bacharach) consider making more time for this area and taking tours of Marksburg Castle - and the nearby Burg Eltz.
• Rhine cruise: start in Bingen, not Bacharach, for the best scenery. Cruising past castles is enjoyable - but no substitute for touring the interiors.

Day 8: Rent car and drive to Fussen (avoiding Ommergamua due to Passion Play 2020)
Day 9: Ludwig's Castles and Mary's bridge
Day 10: Hiking near Fussen (recomendations where?)

Day 9 and 10 are half day activities, so you could free a day and add it to Vienna. I'd book tickets for an early morning tour of Neuschwanstein, then drive to the Tegelberg cable car (see discussion here), go up and have lunch at the Tegelberghaus mountain hut. Then I'd hike down towards Neuschwanstein (fine views on the castle) and through the Pollat Gorge back to the parking (3-4 hours, depending on the number of photo stops; sturdy shoes are essential). Your teenager might like the Tegelberg luge, if you need to fill in something relaxing in day 8 afternoon.

Day 11: Drive to Baden-Baden

I'd break up that trip somewhere at the Bodensee (Lake Constance), preferably in Lindau or Meersburg.

I agree with Russ that you're going way too much by what tour groups are built around, and consequently you're going to be standing in lines with them instead of seeing the best parts of Germany. Here are my suggestions.

•Day 1: Fly into Vienna and recover. If you can plan to arrive early in the day, that way you can take a nap and then get out and see some of the city in the afternoon. Vienna is really pretty at night; they light up all the major buildings and it's safe to walk around.
•Day 2: Vienna Palaces and Museums. Pick one or two; there's no way you can see even half of them if you ran through them. If you want to see an opera I'd do it this night, so you can sleep in the next day.
•Day 3: Vienna (flex time)
•Day 4-5: Train to Salzburg. Stop here overnight at least. Beautiful town, and if you are going to do the SOM tour you'll need another day to see the city. The teenager may be best entertained by a trip to Red Bull Hanger 7.
•Day 6:Train to Munich. The train only takes around 1 hour, so try to arrive NLT noon. Drop your bags at the hotel (they will hold them even if your room isn't ready, and walk down to the Marienplatz and Victualmarket. That will give you an idea of how the city's laid out and let you grab a beer and snack and maybe do some window shopping.
•Day 7: Munich Palaces and Museums. Like Vienna, there's way too much to do in one day. Make your picks, and take a break at lunch in the English Garden at a beer hall. All of that is in easy walking distance.
•Day 8: Dachau. I find Dachau very depressing, so be prepared. Much more enjoyable (or for the afternoon) would be a walk around Schloss Nymphenberg and the gardens. Teenager may prefer some time in the BMW museum.
•Day 9: Train to Nuremberg. Walk the old town; see Albrect Durer's house, the castle, the red light district (the Wall), maybe even the WWII sights (but I'd pass on that unless you have time).
•Day 10: Train to Wurzburg. Take in the town.

•Day 11: Train to Mainz, and then to Rudesheim. Get a bottle of Asbach and take a boat ride up to Bacharach. (The trip upstream is slower, but better for taking pictures and relaxing.) Overnight there.
•Day 12: Visit Oberwesel and then take the train to either Koblenz or Trier (I prefer Trier).
•Day 13: See the town (depending on which way you go).
•Day 14: Back to Frankfurt. Spend some time seeing one of the most underrated cities in Germany.
•Day 15: Fly home

This is, for me, way too fast, but I think you'd have a better trip and see more of Germany than your current itinerary. Bavaria is going to be swarming with tourists, not just Oberamergau, but Ludwig's castles too. Time is much better spent on the Rhine castles and touring the area between Nuremberg and Koblenz. Trier is beautiful, but if you can spend the time along the Rhine (overnight in a real castle) or detouring to Bayreuth or Bamberg, you'll have fewer crowds and much better views. And the food will be better.

If you want more of a "local" or smaller town atmosphere, and you're comfortable driving over there, I'd actually consider getting a car in Nuremberg and driving around Franconia (upper Bavaria). You could easily base out of there and tour Amberg, Ansbach, Bad Windesheim, Dinklesbuhl, or even Rothenberg odT and have a great time. Likewise, before you go home, you could drive up to Bingen, catch the boat to Bacharach and then train back to the car in a day.

First and foremost: Thank you for the suggestions to our itinerary.

A couple of thoughts:

• The guidebook says that Salzburg is a “fun day trip”. Upon further review, I see a couple of days of sights worth seeing.
• We have settled on visiting a former concentration camp for historical appreciation and anticipate it will be depressing.
• A big decision for us is whether to go south to see Ludwig’s Castles Palaces or north to Franconia. The path of Munich -> Nuremberg-> Rothenberg-> Mainz is appealing. Perhaps a future trip through Switzerland-> Austria -> Bavarian Alps would make more sense for Ludwig’s Palaces.
• While RS is huge on Baden-Baden, I frankly do not see the allure considering we do not gamble and my teenager would not participate in the spa activities.
• Is it sacrilegious to think that since I live in the US and have seen many forests here in the states skipping the black forest for our inaugural trip to Germany would be reasonable?
• The Rhine River information is helpful. After some additional research, I see that Bacharach to St Goar is just a small portion of sights worth seeing.
• In regards to the inquiry from Russ: we are interested in war history, science museums, and Renaissance -> present art. We are less interested in cathedrals and religious sights, pre-renaissance art, and auto museums. BTW, while my wife and teenager would be insufferable, I think the carp museum sounds fascinating!
  

Once again, thank you for sharing!

The Black Forest is not so special on account of the trees; it's a rural place where change is a little slower, where it's more about the local culture, traditions and way of life in the old-world towns (like Gengenbach and Schiltach) you can find there... the unique "Fasnacht" celebrations for example... which you can get a peek at in the Fools Museum in Gengenbach.

There's no need to feel guilty if you skip it. You don't have time for everything.

"...we are interested in war history, science museums, and Renaissance -> present art."

There are NS Documentation centers in Nuremberg, Munich and Berchtesgaden (near Salzburg) - a Third Reich walking tour in Munich - and more too - not sure how much darkness you want to heap on your trip if you're already doing Dachau and you already know your WW II history pretty well. The Remagen Bridge museum - on the Rhine north of the cruise area - tells an interesting story - one that was also told in the George Segal / Ben Gazzara film The Bridge at Remagen (closed temporarily.) The Westwall on Germany's border with France and Luxembourg has some interesting war sites but it's outside your current travel zone.

The smallish Blüchermuseum is located across the river from Bacharach in the town of Kaub, home of the island-castle called Pfalzgrafenstein.

Not too far south of FRA airport is Speyer (near Heidelberg and Mannheim) where you will find the Technik Museum.

I'll let the more qualified address your interest in art museums.

More thoughts...

Salzburg is definitely worth more than one day. 2-3 is a good plan, especially if you take in the castle and fortifications on the other side of the river.

Baden is OK, but frankly the main draws are the spa and casino. If those are low on your list of things to do, I'd give it a pass.

The Black Forest is a pretty general area. If possible I'd recommend doing that with places like Metz, Nancy, Trier, and the Swiss boarder.

The Rhine passes thru some of the most varied scenery in the country. Some is industrial (above Koblenz), some has Castles, and if you take the Main from Frankfurt east it's wine country. Personally I think the stretch of country from Mainz to Bayreuth is too often overlooked as tourists head into Bavaria. And to me, staying in a real castle (like Rheinfels or Schonberg) is a lot better use of time than visiting Neuschwanstein. It makes a lot better trip story too.

Museums you should consider: The military history museum in Vienna. The Deutsches Museum in Munich. The hunting and fishing museum in Munich. The document center in Nuremberg.

Another tip, if you're interested in something different along the lines of military history, get some copies of a British periodical called "After the Battle". You can get back copies for any cities you particularly want and see before and after photos from WWII.

One Museum to look for in Vienna is the Military Museum,it is not in the MuseumsQuarter,but well worth seeing.I assume that you know about the other great Museums in Vienna and you will run out of time there, so much to see.
Mike

In Vienna, if you don't want to sit/stand through an opera there is a tour of the Opera House so you can see the building.

I'm the mom of a teenager and live in Vienna. I'm happy to give you some teen-friendly ideas for Austria. First, when you say Spring, can you be more specific? Are you talking March, April or May?

To start, I can say that my kids were bored by Munich and love Salzburg and the Salzkammergut. My kids would also be happy to never go into a palace or art museum. If you want to do some hiking, do it there! I'd really recommend going to Salzburg on the way to Munich. In the Salzkammergut, you are really in the mountains, there are fun Salt Mines to visit, etc. I'd say 2-3 days in Salzburg/Salzkammergut. Cut from Baden-Baden and hiking in Fussen. As has been already said, I think you are leaning a little to heavy on the RS guidebook. Expand your horizons.

In Vienna, with a teen, I'd do a self-guided walking tour of the first district, visit the crypts, go up the towers in Stephansdom, ride the Ferris Wheel at the Prater (and have dinner at the Schweizerhaus in the Prater if they are open), the Natural History Museum, the Haus der Musik, Schonbrunn (outside only, including maze and zoo), shopping on Mariahilferstrasse, Naschmarkt, and lots of time eating schnitzel and strudel in cafes (Sperl, Demel, Vollpension). I like the Military History Museum, but only the WWI display includes English. That would be the area to focus on as the remainder of the museum is very stodgy and in hard to understand unless you speak German. Lots of uniforms. There are numerous festivals in the Spring in Vienna, so if you are lucky, you might be here for something special. My teen would hate me if I took them to the Opera (and he is a musician).

Emily, we are targeting first two weeks in June immediately after school ends for our teenager.

How does one travel from Salzburg city center to Salzkammergut hiking areas without a car?

Do you recommend a specific area for a half day hike?

Thanks

If it's a short, scenic hike you're looking for, no worries - nice trails are accessible without a car.

If SOM is a thing, take the SOM hike when you pay a visit to Werfen (scenic train ride along the Salzach River from Salzburg, 40 minutes by direct train.) Werfen is home to Hohenwerfen Castle and falconry, which you can reach on a steep footpath from town if you wish. Nice views on these walks.

On the Rhine: A particularly nice part of the Rhine Castle Trail connects the towns of St. Goar and Oberwesel and offers great scenery if you invest about 3 hours of your day.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Loreleyblick_Maria_Ruh_%282%29.jpg
http://www.christiane-geldmacher.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/rhein2014-003.jpg

June is summer here :).

You should note that June 1 & June 11 are public holidays in Austria. The June 1 long weekend is really popular for families as kids don’t have school on June 2 as well. Expect busy areas.

To get from Salzburg to St. Gilgen, you take the 150 bus. A half day, however, isn’t worth it.

Based on all your suggestions, here is an updated itinerary with more focus on Salzburg and Franconia that saves Ludwig's palaces and the black forest for a later trip. My wife is not keen on changing lodgings frequently so Nuremberg seems to function as a good home base. What is the groups opinion on Rothenburg vs. Bamberg for a day trip? Should I be swayed by the Unecsco World Heritage status of Bamberg? Thanks

• Day 1: Fly into Vienna and recover
• Day 2: Vienna Palaces and Museums
• Day 3: Train to Salzburg, city walk
• Day 4: Salzburg SOM tour and fortress
• Day 5: Salzkammergut region full day trip for hiking
• Day 6: Salzburg museums and flex time
• Day 7: Train to Munich, city walk
• Day 8: Munich Museums and English garden
• Day 9: Dachau day trip and flex time
• Day 10: Rent car, drive to Nuremberg with stop in Regensburg for lunch/sightseeing
• Day 11: Nuremberg Durer’s house and Nazi Documentation center
• Day 12: Day trip to Rothenberg or Bamberg
• Day 13: Drive to Mainz with stop in Wurzburg for lunch/sightseeing
• Day 14: Rhine River cruise to Koblenz, stop and tour a castle
• Day 15: Train to FRA and fly home

Day 10: Rent car, drive to Nuremberg with stop in Regensburg for lunch/sightseeing
Day 11: Nuremberg Durer’s house and Nazi Documentation center
Day 12: Day trip to Rothenberg or Bamberg
Day 13: Drive to Mainz with stop in Wurzburg for lunch/sightseeing
Day 14: Rhine River cruise to Koblenz, stop and tour a castle
Day 15: Train to FRA and fly home

Day 11: Doc center is outside the center and somewhat time consuming, so you don't really have much time for Nuremberg at all. I'm surprised that the only sight in town you've officially targeted is the Dürerhaus. The science/tech museums alone look promising to someone with your stated interests. What about a walking tour? So I'd suggest that on Day 10 you add to your Nuremberg time by heading straight to Nuremberg rather than detouring to Regensburg, which in some respects duplicates the Bamberg experience on Day 12.

Day 12: Rothenburg will be the choice of most Rick Steves fans (most of whom are unfamiliar with and have never visited Bamberg - which I think means it's not really a "choice" for those folks.) But I will advocate strongly for Bamberg. As he's prone to do with his favorites, Rick Steves oversells Rothenburg. For those with 5 days in Germany, the only towns mentioned in his planning guide are Munich and Rothenburg... and for him, it's Germany's "best-preserved" (his words) old town, despite the fact that 40% of it was bombed out about 75 years ago and later rebuilt. (And here I thought "preserved" referred to "well-kept original stuff.")

Not saying you shouldn't go to Rothenburg - people do find it fun - only that you should understand the difference. Bamberg is a living, breathing university town where people lead all walks of life; Rothenburg relies almost solely on tourism for its sense of purpose - the vast majority of working folks there serve tourists in one way or another. Rothenburg is marketed and "cutesified" and largely overrun by tourist shops and international visitors; Bamberg gets visitors, but they don't overwhelm the place.

Rothenburg:
https://static.geo.de/bilder/e2/60/40947/article_image_big/2383b623e79431c7bd617551b69245a4.jpg
https://www.frankenfernsehen.tv/storage/thumbs/1200x630c/r:1475156718/95171.jpg

In a moment of complete honesty, Rick actually uses the words "medieval amusement part" in reference to Rothenburg. That's how it felt to me. And as far as the war goes, while Bamberg did not fully escape destruction, it did so better than Rothenburg. So yes, there's something to the UNESCO designation if you're interested in more than just stuff like the "implements of torture" museum.

If you enjoy beer at all - that alone is a good reason to choose Bamberg:
https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/bambpubs.htm

Mainz: I guess your spending 2 nights there, though you aren't really seeing Mainz. To keep 2 nights in one spot, I would urge you to choose one of the downstream towns instead. If you need to be as close as possible for a direct train ride to FRA on Day 15, Bingen is a good scenic-area choice.

CAR: I don't understand the purpose. It seems to be getting in your way. The car alone won't really work for your cruise. You don't need it for any of the towns you are visiting - you can easily do a stopover in Würzburg by train as well. You probably aren't sure HOW to do the trains for this part but I assure you it's doable and that we can help you do it.

CRUISE: Cruising all the way to Koblenz is inconvenient, expensive, and wastes good sightseeing time. Better to end the cruise in St. Goar or Boppard.

Russ,
You confirmed some other reports I read about Rothenburg vs Bamberg. I am not a fan of pitting one city against another since they all have their unique characteristics, however, with limited time to explore we do try to avoid tourist magnets (I say this realizing I am a tourist). The comments on avoiding a car rental are noted: if we eliminate Regensburg in lieu of more time in Nuremberg, trains make more sense. We prefer train travel to driving but so many reports recommend renting a car. Between labor strikes or getting on the wrong train, we have gotten lost in several countries, it always works out.

Mainz was a target city primarily to return the car so relying solely on trains frees us up to travel to Bingen instead of Mainz. I will do more research into the Rhine river cruise to Boppard instead of Koblenz. Thanks

A day trip from Nuremberg to Bamberg is especially easy by train - about 40 minutes by direct regional train, with liberal morning departures (7:38, 8:10, 8:38, 9:38, 9:49) - and it's economical too. The Nuremberg transit authority (VGN) offers a day pass for 2 adults at about €20/day. It's good for the round trip. It's also good for buses, trams and other local means of transport within Nuremberg and Bamberg, if you want to use those. And it has no pre-9-am-weekdays restrictions (like the Bayern Ticket and other day passes ) so you can get an early start if you wish.

The day pass would be valid from Nuremberg to Rothenburg as well (with more travel time and with changes of train.)

The VGN Tagesticket Plus (day pass)

The VGN Network (where the day pass is valid)

I don't think the car (if that was your idea) - or driving out of and back into Nuremberg - will offer you convenience or savings over the train for these outings - only additional fees for parking.

Emily,

Thank you for the June holiday information, I had not looked into Austrian or German holidays yet. We recently were in Rome on Republic Day and the city was nearly shutdown. Fortunately we had reservations at the Borghese Gallery so we were able to avoid the parade closures.

I think you're generally getting good itinerary advice, but as someone who lives within spitting distance of the Black Forest, your instincts to skip it are right on.

It's a lovely place for a 3rd or 4th or 5th trip to Germany, but IMO does not come close to being a highlight or must-see for a wide-ranging 1st trip as you're doing. The Bavarian scenery is more interesting!

I’ll add an endorsement for the Museum of Military History (HGM) in Vienna. It has the car in which Archduke Ferdinand was shot, along with his blood-stained clothes and an excellent WWI exhibit. The rows and rows of military uniforms? Not so interesting. The Panzer Garten (tank garden!) in the back? Pretty nifty.

Have not read every response, so if I restate something ......my apologies.

Your trip is VERY, VERY full. If all of your transportation connections are perfect and the museum/palace lines are not too long....it will work. Otherwise.....have a Plan B.

I would encourage you to book entrances to museums and palaces in advance. That will help you budget your time.

Having been to some of the same places......here are some ideas/suggestions:
Vienna is HUGE. There are many museums....music and non-music related. If you are into classical music, this the place to invest time in. Check out the the "Stehplatz" option (see RS Book) for an Opera. It is cheap..... the views are good, but you have to stand throughout (or lean in the railing). You can leave if your feet give out. The Military Museum with Archduke Ferdinand's car and uniform captivated me. The Haus de Musik is an interactive music museum....lots of fun. You can conduct the VPO on a big screen.

You can watch the surfers in the Englischer Garten. Lots of fun. The Asamkirche is not very big, but totally awesome!!!!! I took a train to Dachau....easy to do. The Viktualienmarkt is a good place to hang to with the locals.

There was mention of Nuremberg. I was able to get into the actual courtroom of the Nazi Trials. It is still used as a courtroom today, so it is not always open. There is a museum there also. It is a away from the city center. A metro can get you there. The TI in Nuremberg was GREAT! I took a train from Munich to get there.

Hope this helps some.