Advice for 14-day train travel in May

Sounds like a very full agenda, moving more often than I would prefer... Can you plan on coming back again to see part of it?

Without doing a lot of math, seems certain the DB Pass is the way to go. It's a bit tricky to buy, there is lots of good info on this forum for buying it. And then cancelling it. It will be E58 this year.

The Rhine area is really a great part of the trip. Bacharach (NO, I MEANT RUDESHEIM) is a very touristy, pretty big town, but lots ot do and see. Maybe the cable car across the hills to the next town would be fun. Personally I'd rather stay in St. Goar. Much smaller, still touristy, but has a nice castle to tour. I've been at the Rhine Hotel there. Get a KD boat timetable, and use the boats to go down the Rhine. And use the trains to go upriver. The views from the boat are awesome.

There's been some polling on this forum about favorite German city, and Berlin won, with Munich second place, maybe. I personally love Munich, there's so much to see, you won't see it all. My favorite part of Germany is Bavaria, so we fly in/out of Munich.

Others will comment on Rothenburg, my wife and I love it, but it's a bit out of the way for a 1 day visit, and during the day it's packed with tour bus people. It's much nicer at night, and the Night Watchman tour (at night) is really great. The Criminal History Museum is worth a visit.

Your visit will be excellent whatever you do. Enjoy!

EDIT: TO REPLACE BACHARACH WITH RUDESHEIM. OOPS, MY BAD

Seven hour train is doable, but of course a bit exhausting, in particular when doing the Deutschland Ticket and thus not being allowed to use high speed trains. Unfortunately Berlin is a bit off from right about all the other goals you have.

Also a bit off is, unfortunately, the Rhine Valley.
Have you considered Lake Constance at the Alps? They have picturesque medieval towns, cruises, and mountains, the Rhine runs through the lake, Mainau flower park will be in full bloom.

Besides, may I ask what is the objective for each of your stops? What makes it interesting? Knowing that would be helpful when finding possible replacements.

Another point: Salzburg is close to Munich and also Innsbruck and the alps in general. Having a base at e.g. Rosenheim and making day trips by train might be less stressful.

Similarly with Rothenburg, Nürnberg, Bamberg (or Würzburg), all of which are easy to reach from Nürnberg. Rothenburg is not that large, so it might not even be a whole day.

...there is so much I want to see....

But there is much that you will NOT see/do if your stays in these places are TOO BRIEF. And that's how they look to me right now.

Ideas for streamlining:
- Fly into Berlin and out of Frankfurt to subtract the long train journey between those two (google flights, multi-city search.)
- Travel long distances outside prime sightseeing hours (like late afternoon - early evening.)
- Choose DIRECT trains whenever possible.

An itinerary that accomplishes this... focusing on the Rhine, the Alps, and Berlin, which you emphasized... and including nearly everything on your wish list. I don't like making suggestions without being sure that they are feasible, so I ran through this using the DB website without exact dates...

Berlin, nights 1-3
... Sightsee in Berlin on Day 4, then take a DIRECT 3-hr. ICE train ride in the late afternoon to Nuremberg (17:04 - 20:00 for example.)

Nuremberg, nights 4-6 (day trip to Rothenburg or better yet Bamberg, or both)
... Sightsee on Day 7 in Nuremberg, then take a one-connection 3 hr. ICE train ride in the late afternoon to Salzburg (16:55 - 19:59,or example)

Salzburg, nights 7-9 (do 1-2 day trips... Berchtesgaden? Werfen?)
...Sightsee on Day 10 in Salzburg, take a direct 1.75-hr train ride to Munich for 2 nights at whatever hour you wish

Munich, night 10
...Sightsee on part of Day 10 and on Day 11, then take a direct 4-hour train to MAINZ (16:48–21:02.) Book night 11 near Mainz Hbf station.

Mainz, night 11
... No sightseeing in Mainz on Day 12 - just check out, catch an early train to Bingen Rhein Stadt, then board a morning K-D cruise boat bound for St Goar. Drop bags at St Goar hotel. Sightseeing in nearby St Goar/Bacharach/Oberwesel.

St Goar, night 12
... On Day 13 take a day trip by train + bus to Burg Eltz and Cochem (Mosel River.) Bags can be stowed in a Koblenz station locker, where you must change trains anyway. Retrieve bags at Koblenz on the return trip... which will be a return not to St Goar but back to MAINZ for your final night.

Mainz, night 13
... Day 14: Direct a.m. train from Mainz Hbf to FRA at whatever hour you need.

Maybe you have Day 14 as well and fly out on Day 15? If you MUST fly out of Berlin, you can now travel on DAY 14 to Berlin and get a hotel near the airport. If you do not have this extra day, then CUT the night in MUNICH. Just make a long stopover there on a Salzburg > Mainz train trip, using a Munich station locker for your bags.

You need ICE trains for these journeys; buy those saver fares ASAP before prices rise, or get a German Rail Pass:
Berlin > Nuremberg
Nuremberg > Salzburg
Munich > Mainz
(Mainz > Berlin, if needed)

I suggest you get on Google Maps and plan your route as if going by car. Does your planned route look like an efficient travel plan? If not, consider altering the sequence of your cities.

The Rhine is in the west and the Danube is in the east. Most of your planned cities are toward the east. Would you condider adding sites around the Danube and dropping the Rhine? There are day cruises on the Danube, but not as many castles (I now wonder why...need to do some research).

Regarding the D-Ticket, which I use when I visit Germany, you may find that you will want to buy an ICE ticket on the longer legs. You can still use the D-Ticket for the shorter legs and for local public transport in the cities. I will be using this approach later this year. To compare ICE vs local you can go on the DB website and research each leg of your journey.

Finally, as you end your time in the south, consider an evening flight back to Berlin. Might not be much more than the train ticket.

Russ, thanks so much for the fantastic and detailed itinerary! I really appreciate how much of your time you used to put it together.

I apologize for not being clearer in my original post. I have a total of 15 nights starting with the day I arrive. I have 14 full days afterward and fly out in the morning of the 16th day. Does this give me an extra day to add to Berlin or Munich? I would like to take a day trip to Potsdam and see the concentration camp at Dachau. Will this itinerary give me enough time to see Neuschwanstein Castle and Zugspitze?

Thank you, travelerguy. I will look into St. Goar as my base on the Rhine and compare Rudesheim to Bacharach.

Thanks l-b_m. I will look into Lake Constance. Sounds like it will be very picturesque. I understand the Rhine is a bit off. But taking a boat cruise on the Rhine to see picturesque towns and castles from the water is a top priority.

Here's why I am interested in seeing the following locations
Berlin and Munich: Arts, museums, WW2 history, cathedrals
Rhine Valley: Picturesque towns and castle. I especially love castles!
Rothenburg/Bamberg: Picturesque walled town/city. Half timbered houses and medieval architecture.
Nuremberg: History (Nuremberg trials, etc)
Fussen: Access to the Alps, hiking, nature, and mountain views. I need to figure out what to see in the area.
Salzburg: Baroque architecture and only city in Austria in my itinerary.

I counted conservatively with 13 days for sightseeiig including Day 1. So you have 15... then yes, 2 addtional days is what you've got. Makes sensee to me to add one to Munich and one to Berlin. But I would not choose to use a day for Dachau. I am sure that 2 nights in Munich will still leave you with inadequate time for the things most people go there for. Dachau is - well, it's very jolting and ruins your day, providing nothing really beyond the anguishing details of what went on there. As long as you are not a fascist or Holocaust don't denier, you should not require that lesson. Dachau was memorialized as proof of the genocide Germany oversaw and was intended as a lesson for its future citizens and others on the results of fascism.

If not an extra day for Munich, I'd use that day for a day trip into the Alps. Instead of Füssen, Mittenwald is the perfect Alpine day trip destination from Munich for hiking, mountain lifts, and views. Be sure to visit the Leutasch river gorge as well. Use the link to guide your time there.

salsa_dancer, note the edit to my previous post, I said Bacharach when I meant Rudesheim. oops.

And Mittenwald would be a beautiful day trip. Lot of train time, but great scenery. In Mittenwald, I'd take a walk to the pedestrian main street (Obermarkt), it is really beautiful. You could have a great meal in the Alpenrose, on Obermarkt, close to the St. Peter & Paul Church.

Ok, then the Rhine is set, I guess 🙂 I think Russ itinerary should work, and be a bit less stressful than your original.

Definitely consider making Salzburg a day trip, it is easily doable from Munich, or a base on the way like Rosenheim, which is already in the Alps.

There is not that much left of the 1930s in Nuremberg, it all got destroyed during or after the war. It would be a convenient place to stop for a trip to Rothenburg though.

Just speaking of medieval architecture, that is about the things you can find in other places most easily. Usually smaller cities that were not such a good target in the war.
The aforementioned lake Constance towns have some, as the were wealthy trade towns in the Middle Ages but became rather sleepy afterwards. As do quite some on the way from the Rhine down south, which might be convenient stop overs. Limburg, Idstein, and others. You could just leave your belongings in a locker at the train station, stroll the city, have lunch or coffee and head on.
As to a cathedral: The highest in Europe is actually the one in Ulm, which would also be on the way down south. They also still have some Medieval quarters.

I will look into St. Goar as my base on the Rhine...

Let's talk about the Rhine in detail...

St Goar is a very good base town for several reasons - especially if the Rhine Cruise is important. The only reason my itinerary shows only one night (night 12) there - with Mainz the night before and the night after - is that Day 11 was set aside for sightseeing in Munich, followed by a 4-hr. train ride from Munich, which gets you to Mainz at 21:02. This train ride to Mainz is a very good one...

1) It allows for nearly a full day in Munich, and...

2) It is a DIRECT train ride, the only direct train all day long from Munich to Mainz. And waking up in Mainz means you are on the correct train line for getting a quick train ride to the "Bingen Rhein Stadt" station, which is right near the K-D boat dock. A DIRECT train ride matters. It is faster - but it also helps you avoid missed connections. ICE trains tend to run LATE, and a missed connection anywhere can set you back an hour or longer. While you could possibly travel the whole way from Munich to St Goar that same day, there will be 1 or more connections to make (or miss!) and the trip will be significantly longer.

So let's say you take this direct train from Munich. You arrive 21:02 at Mainz Hbf, walk across the plaza in front of the station, and check in for the night at one of the nearby hotels.

Next morning: You and your bag catch the RB train from Mainz to Bingen Rhein Stadt (8:02 - 8:29) then walk to the K-D dock to board the 9:15 cruise to St Goar (10:55.) Drop bags at your hotel, then see Rheinfels castle (ruins) then Bacharach and St Goar that day.

Alternatively, you could use the rest of this day to take a tour of Marksburg Castle, the best of the Rhine Castles, in the town of Braubach, another stunning old-world town.

https://www.marksburg.de/en/circuit/#/

My previous suggestion for the NEXT day was to visit Burg Eltz and Cochem before proceeding to Mainz for another night there. Koblenz is closer than Mainz to these places, but on next day, you face the big train trip to Berlin; Mainz > Berlin (which takes 5 hours or less) will be faster and simpler than traveliing Koblenz > Berlin (which takes 6-7 hours.) Do have a look at the schedules and prices for both trips, however. I believe you will have connections to make from either city.

With all there is to see in this area, an additional night in St Goar would be really helpful.

With all that said... you have also mentioned Cologne Cathedral. Instead of staying in Mainz or Koblenz, maybe you could head to Cologne right after Burg Eltz and Cochem and spend the night there. The next morning, see the cathedral (right next to Cologne Hbf station.) After that, there are many DIRECT trains from Cologne to Berlin that take just under 5 hours.

There is one bugaboo about this Rhine visit which you might have to work around. The Mainz > Cologne railway is undergoing repairs in certain places on certain dates, and this will cause schedule changes and create disruptions that could mess with your visit. It would be super-wise for you to figure out what train trips you will be making on which dates in this area. Posting that information here will allow us to suggest ways to avoid problems and organize things for a smoother visit. Or you can pm me with a finalized plan and I'll look for any conflicts.

Russ, l-b_m, travelerguy and jkh, your suggestions have been super helpful and much appreciated. What do you think about removing one day from Nuremberg and adding the extra day in St Goar? Is the Nurnberg to St. Goar trade off a good one? My top priority is to see Rothenburg and/or Bamberg. Since a lot of Nuremberg was destroyed in the war, do you think spending more time in Rhine valley is better? Alternatively, I am also trying to see if I can add an extra day to my total trip time so that I get the extra day in the Rhine valley area. What do you suggest I see and add to the itinerary if I can add an extra day to visit the Rhine valley/Mosel River area?

Russ, I really like your suggestion to stay in Cologne after Burg Eltz. Does this mean I keep my bags in Koblenz station locker to pick up after the visit to Burg Eltz and Cochem (Mosel River)? Then I travel to Cologne from Koblenz?

Also, will there be an issue having my bags on the K-D cruise boat?

I had another idea. What if I start my visit in Nuremberg and end in Berlin? Nothing will change in the itinerary; I travel straight to Nuremberg from the Berlin airport and spend my last 4 nights in Berlin going there from Cologne? This should give me one less change of hotel, do you agree?

"I really like your suggestion to stay in Cologne after Burg Eltz. Does this mean I keep my bags in Koblenz station locker to pick up after the visit to Burg Eltz and Cochem (Mosel River)?"

Exactly. You can design this day any way you like. Cochem, or another town, or Marksburg/Braubach might be added to a Burg Eltz outing if you can work out the transportation satisfactorily. Your train ride to Cologne from either Mosel town - Cochem or Hatzenport (the Mosel town where the bus from Burg Eltz will take you) requires you to change trains in Koblenz anyway. And coming from Braubach, on the opposite river bank, you'd also change in Koblenz for Cologne. (Retrieving your bags at Koblenz station will not require a long layover time.)

Nuremberg is a lovely place to be with lots to see and lots of interesting museums. It's not only about WW II history, and though it was largely rebuilt after the war, much of the old town zone looks like it is pre-war. Nuremberg is very walkable (compared with Berlin and Munich!) and has its own castle (Imperial Castle) with some old-town-wall fortifications; while it's hard to compare with those larger cities, I would rather live/stay/visit Nuremberg than either of them, personally.

https://img.fotocommunity.com/altstadt-nuernberg-efa800b3-84be-4b9a-b839-87ca97e73790.jpg?height=1080

Old-town map of Nuremberg:
https://wikitravel.org/upload/shared/8/8d/Nuremberg_Altstadt.png

Nuremberg Museums:
https://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/discover/museums/

Nuremberg Castle:
https://www.meine-ferienregion.de/sites/default/files/styles/195x195/public/photos/nuernbergkaiserburg_shutterstock_1152165452_dan-race_kl.jpg?itok=K3dVtF_b

Nuremberg sights:
https://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/discover/places-of-interest/
Scroll down half way on this page for a self-guided walking tour of Nuremberg and other suggestions:
https://lifeslittleadventures.typepad.com/lifes_little_adventures/railfan-delights/

If I had to steal time from somewhere for the Rhine area, I would definitely steal it, and see as much as you can there. I haven't mentioned a visit to Boppard for the chairlift ride there and the views from Gedeonseck, or some of the other options right near St. Goar.

https://fewoboppard.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Sessellift.jpg
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/14/37/be/f9/dsc-0008-largejpg.jpg

However, I would not steal time from Nuremberg. Perhaps Munich instead.

K-D just wants you to be able to manage your own bag(s.) Carry-on luggage is fine. Large trunks are not.

Doing a 4-hour train trip from BER airport to Nuremberg... immediately after a long overnight flight into BER... with a required change of train... will tax your personal resources. NOT a good idea. And it'd probably expensive to ticket... since saver fares do not work at all if your flight is late and you miss your scheduled train, a flex-fare will be needed on that day for the ICE train ride. I would park myself in Berlin right away. Pre-purchase a saver fare to Nuremberg for whatever date your plan tells you that you are finished with Berlin.

Thanks for all the information you posted about Nuremberg. It made it clear that I should keep the scheduled days for Nuremberg unchanged. Instead, I was able to add one extra day to my trip which will used for additional Rhine Valley travel.

I will take your good advice and stay in Berlin first before traveling to Nuremberg.

Unfortunately, I will have a large bag that cannot go on the K-D cruise boat. How do you suggest I handle it? I hope to avoid wasting precious time finding somewhere to stow it in the morning.

Staying in Mainz as planned would mean a return train trip to Mainz for your bags if you were to leave them at your Mainz hotel or at the station... not a desirable plan.

I might choose to stay in Bingen, on the waterfront, somewhere near the K-D dock. That way you are at least right where you need to be the next morning for your cruise. And returning to your hotel there by train for your bags would consume less time. You will unfortunately get to Bingen Rhein Stadt station quite late (22:30) using the late-afternoon train from Munich I suggested, which results in a 1-hr. layover in Mainz. Look for an earlier departure from Munich - but expect to have a couple changes of train.

Alternatively, keep your hotel in St Goar and do the same thing... leave Munich earlier for St Goar, expect a couple changes of train. The following morning, take a train to Bingen Rhein Stadt to begin your cruise while your baggage sits gleefully in your hotel room, then cruise back to St Goar.

I do not have the best feeling about these travel details from Munich under your circumstances. And I do not know your travel date either... just using sample dates is likely inaccurate and a little risky with the construction that is planned for the Rhine tracks on this side of the river, which will experience complete closure in the evenings on certain dates.

Another alternative which would use the same direct train from Munich I recommended would be to ticket yourself all the way to Wiesbaden, where that train terminates. Then catch a late evening train to Rüdesheim, where you can also catch a cruise boat in the morning, and where returning for your bags would not be too awful.

A reasonable alternative would be to review Rick Steves' packing advice and follow his guidelines so that your access to the cruise boat after your train ride from Mainz would be guaranteed.

I did an additional check using Koblenz Hbf instead of Mainz as destination from Munich and as an overnight stop for "night #1" on the Rhine. This travel schedule looks advantageous, with an early start the next morning and still quite a bit of sightseeing time before your train leaves Munich Hbf. Of the options so far, this is the one I like best if I had a big bag that could not come along on my cruise.

- 16:18 - 21:01 DIRECT ICE train Munich > Koblenz (overnight near station)

- 07:30 - 08:26 Direct RB train to Bingen Rhein Stadt for 9:15 cruise to St Goar

After the cruise, sightsee as suggested in the Rhine towns on that river bank (St Goar, Bacharach, etc.) When done, ride the train back to Koblenz Hbf.

The 07:30 morning train to Bingen Rhein Stadt may or may not be on this exact schedule; a special schedule is currently being created for certain dates in May. I imagine it should be visible on the DB site in the coming days.

If by chance this new schedule does not put you in Bingen in time for your cruise, there is an alternative... you can instead catch a Koblenz > Rüdesheim train. The same boat leaving Bingen at 9:15 leaves Rüdesheim at 9:00. To catch this boat, you would want to be on the 06:52 train out of Koblenz (ar. 7:52 Rüdesheim.) You could stop off at a R'heim bakery for coffee and breakfast on the way to the KD boat dock.

Your big bag: You either leave it with your Koblenz hotel, or stow it in a station locker.

My thinking... I'd leave it with the hotel, but I'd leave it in my hotel room. The Koblenz station area is not as pretty as St Goar, but Koblenz is actually a very good place to spend night #2. I would probably just book there for all 3 nights if you have 3. Here's why:

• You have to return to Koblenz for your bags no matter what. If you stay in St Goar on night #2, then you must backtrack there (with your big bag) from Koblenz and then backtrack again the next day to Koblenz on your way to Burg Eltz, Cochem, or Marksburg. If you just stay in Koblenz again, you are half way to those Mosel destinations when you wake up on day #3.Cochem > < Koblenz is DIRECT - no layover time like you'd have if starting from St Goar - AND your trip back to your Koblenz hotel that night will be a shorter trip as well.

• Braubach is only 12 minutes from Koblenz Hbf. Boppard is only 15 minutes from Koblenz Hbf. And of all the Rhine Gorge towns. Koblenz is the closest to COLOGNE. So whatever you are doing on Days #3 and #4, Koblenz gives you a leg up on efficient travel. And once you get off the train in Munich and check in, your bag stays put the whole time until you leave for Cologne.

• The Koblenz Ibis is just one of several hotels within a short walk of Koblenz Hbf station. There are a few restaurants nearby as well.

This is a lot of great information! It has been tremendously helpful for my trip planning. Making Koblenz my base sounds better logistically. Saving time from traveling on trains to do actual sight seeing is important. I also like the option of staying at St. Goar because of the picturesque views.

Is it common for hotels in St Goar to allow late check-ins at 23:00?

Russ, when I finalize my travel dates, I'll PM you to see if there are any conflicts, especially with Rhine tracks construction

Is it common for hotels in St Goar to allow late check-ins at 23:00?

Seems late to me for these small family-owned places. Email the individual hotels you have in mind prior to ticketing a train journey that arrives that late in St Goar.

Is it still accurate that you cannot travel using the Deutschland ticket before 9am on weekdays? I looked up the Munich - Mittenwald route on the DB navigator app which indicated several trips that start before 9am are covered by the Deutschland ticket. Is the DB navigator app wrong?

Is it still accurate that you cannot travel using the Deutschland ticket before 9am on weekdays

As far as I know, you have always been able to use the Deutschland Ticket 24 hours a day without restrictions. So no change.

Many of the day passes that have been available for many years - like the Bayern Ticket and the "Day Ticket for Germany" - have had a ban on travel before 9 am. It is very easy to confuse the Day-Ticket with the D-Ticket (which has never had this restriction.)

Is it reasonable to visit Zugspitze and Mittenwald on a day trip from Munich? Or would visiting the Zugspitze and Garmisch-Partenkirchen instead of Mittenwald be a better option? I am looking to see impressive mountain views along with experiencing a typical picturesque alpine town along with nice hiking opportunities .

Mittenwald is an all-in-one package. Mittenwald is tons cuter than G-P. The Karwendelbahn lift for views starts right in town, no additional travel required. You can walk around a bit up there for different perspectives. Here are a few photos taken at different times of year:

https://www.alpenwelt-karwendel.de/rundblickerklaerung

https://www.karwendelbahn.de/en/

Tripadvisor info and reviews: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187300-d1754677-Reviews-Karwendelbahn-Mittenwald_Upper_Bavaria_Bavaria.html

The Leutasch Gorge is right there too:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187300-d9600873-Reviews-Leutaschklamm-Mittenwald_Upper_Bavaria_Bavaria.html

I did not mean to say that G-P isn't nice. You may want to stop in there on the way back as well.