3 Week German Itinerary

I have to say that when I first saw you itinerary, the first red flag was the Grand Prix course at Nürbergring. It always upsets me when I see American drivers, with no licensed racing experience, wanting to drive a Grand Prix course. But I see you want to be driven; I totally approve.

But the next thing I notice is the number of day you have with "Travel to". I think it is like 9 out of 19 full days in Europe. Slow down and smell the roses.

I love Rothenburg, but I would omit it in your case, because it's a long way to get there for the time you spend there.

Likewise with Appenzell.

Sorry my grammar wasn't excellent on that one, I was planning on driving at the Nurburgring but on the Nordschleife track and not the smaller grand prix track. I do also have 15 years of licensed racing experience and own 2 fully prepped race cars; also Canadian, not American. What a weird set of assumptions.

Hoping to find a town near Fussen that would be similar to Rothenberg so I can bypass that for this trip. Appenzall doesn't seem too far off the map but if it's a skippable town/area I might cross it off the list.

You could rent a car in Cologne and drive to Nurburgring then drop off your car in Koblenz and take a direct train to St Goar (30-minutes) and get around by train the rest of the way. Car rental is expensive these days and DE has one of the most efficient train systems in Europe.
I would make the itinerary more accessible by train. This way you can enjoy a cold brew as you get a glimpse of DEs countryside from your window seat. Another option is same day car rental if the train isn't convenient, but you need to make sure that a car rental agency is nearby.

I would be curious people's opinions on car vs train

Skip the car and take the train. That would be both faster and easier. You might need a car to get to Nüburgring, I'm not sure how to get there. But in that case, rent one in Köln or Bonn and return it in Koblenz.

I also agree that Rothenburg is a bit of a detour to visit between St Goar and Baden-Baden. If you still feel like you need to see Rothenburg o.d.T., make it a stop between Munich and Amsterdam.

Some issues you may wish to consider:

1. Car rental drop fee for second country?
2. Different glove box safety equipment rules for car?
3. Covid rules for Austria, Swiss, or Germany crossings?
4. Confirm car rental company permits all these countries.
5. Time saved with open-jaw (Multi-City) air ticket?
6. Parking costs vs. Train tickets vs. gas or diesel costs?
7. Current inflated car rental charges.
8. Download Rhine (KD) dayboat schedule for your days

Obviously Munich and Innsbruck go together, so does Salzburg, although the scenery is different. I personally think Munich is over-rated, and it's a long trip. Would you consider more Germany and less driving time? I don't think you said whether you want to visit museums, churches, auto factories, or what. Are you going to hike in the BF, or view waterfalls? (Of course, I just mean that for-instance.)

You don't make clear if your wife has a Covid-exposure concern about flying, or something else. I only bring that up because when we started a trip in Cologne, we bought a two-segment ticket to Cologne, and landed (from east coast US) at 11AM or so. I'd observe that a layover for the second flight MIGHT be a safer environment for breakfast than on the plane? If Amsterdam is actually an important part of your trip, and not simply the best direct flight from your (not shown in your Rick Steves online profile) home city, it's not helpful to point out that a flight to Brussels leads to an easy train trip to Cologne, with an Aachen option. Are you going to visit Dusseldorf?

I would not go to so many countries in one trip, but it's a matter of personal travel style. Your plan has too many hotel changes for us. For our first ten trips to Europe, we tended to stay in major cities for four nights each, taking daytrips by train where appropriate. We've also done trips with a car rental in the middle section.

I don't think you should be offended at people on an internet newsboard assuming that you are like 99% of the other posters on that board, and are NOT a licensed race car driver. Because of my own assumptions about you, I am not going to tell you about detailed reasons why you should not rent a car for this trip. As the Firesign Theater said, "I'm high, on a full tank and a clean windshield!" (I have driven on some trips to Germany, and train-ed on others.)

Speaking of myself, it's probably a similar >1% percentage of people on this board whose parents, neither of them, ever owned a motor vehicle for their entire lives. I don't expect posters to take that possibility into account.

I'm reluctant to comment very much with specifics as I don't really get what it's about - WHY you've picked these destinations, what it is you hope to see and do during your time in Germany. I get that DW wants nice scenery, but what I see is a route that roughly follows the Rhine River (which is only briefly beautiful) for way too long and probably contains way too many Rick Steves picks.

Germany is an outstanding place to use the trains. But I'm not going to try to steer you away from your strong car orientation.

So, sticking with the car as your mode of transport... And sticking with your plan to enjoy some wine and beer during the day...

Hoping to find a town near Fussen that would be similar to Rothenberg
so I can bypass that for this trip.

What you (and maybe Rick Steves as well) might not be aware of is that Germany has numerous old-world towns that survived WW II and are similar to Rothenburg (which was 40% destroyed, actually!) - and that are not so jam-packed with tourists.

There are well-known driving routes all across the country that take you to some of these places.

One of these routes happens to be close enough to St. Goar that you could make a day of it. But maybe a closer look at all the routes will turn you onto something else:

https://www.deutsche-fachwerkstrasse.de/en/Routes_Cities.html

As for the Rhine, it's really just a small part of the river that owns the spectacular scenery - the Upper Middle Rhine Valley, which lies between Koblenz and Bingen on this map.

I imagine you picked St. Goar because it's in this area and because Rheinfels CASTLE is there. A good choice. But then there are two even BETTER castle choices that I think your wife (and maybe you) would enjoy even more in this area:

https://www.marksburg.de/en/circuit/

https://burg-eltz.de/en/ (not too far from the Nürburgring!)

And somehow, the entire Mosel River Valley - which some say is even more beautiful than the Middle Rhine Valley - appears to have escaped your planning. Do some research on the towns of Cochem and Bernkastel for starters, and check out Trier also.

There is much more to see AND do in this area too. It's not just about driving around a while and then leaving. There are WW II bunkers, outdoor cultural museums, very nice biking options, scenic hiking routes, and more... From a wisely-picked base town, you would probably need at least 5-6 days to check out this area well. AND if you WERE going to use the train for some outings from your base - to avoid the drinking + driving issue - this is a GREAT area for that.

So if I were you, I'd absolutely start by breaking your trip down into smaller chunks - at most 3 travel base towns - so that you can actually explore this area or that area - not just drive through it.

I'm a little surprised that an auto enthusiast doesn't mention the Mercedes or Porsche museums in Stuttgart. If you have other specific interests, share them, and you'll probably get better advice.

I was not expecting such detailed responses, thanks everyone for their opinion.

I did rush the initial post to get it out there and I will be honest that we aren't 100% what we want when travelling. I like driving and road trips which is why I geared the itinerary that way but as mentioned I should stop and smell the roses, maybe just rent a car for a day here and there and get it out of the system. From just watching alot of Rick Steves videos on youtube of overviews of certain countries Germany stood out for us for the wow factor of the old castles and scenery and I enjoyed myself when I was stopped in Munich many years ago with friends (visited the BMW factory then) I'm a big fan of German beers and food and was planning on indulging on both which was an added bonus but as mentioned, Stuttgart was on the list at one point for the Porsche and Mercedes factories but I had shortened the list and already had the Nurburgring on it to get the car fix out of system (open to other car related places people are aware of) My wife wants to venture through castles and the Neuschwanstein Castle was high on her list. She loves seeing animals as well but I'm not sure how much you get of that in Germany. We both are not the museum type and would rather see waterfalls or go on short hikes and take everything in but at the same time stay busy. Laying on a beach isn't high on our list of activities even in Mexico.

We are from Edmonton and the only direct flight to Europe is Amsterdam and my wife has fairly high flight anxiety so the less transfers the better.

Russ, both of those Castles look amazing and we've never heard of them, it seems as though if we maybe setup in Koblenz for a week we could go down both the Mosel River Valley and The Rhine Valley and get the best of both worlds before moving to a city like Stuttgart to setup there for an extended period of time and explore the Black Forest and small spa towns that border France. Then maybe a third setup in Munich and take day trips to areas close and either Salzburg or Innsbruck to tour around. We were planning on flying from Munich back to Amsterdam to meet up with our friends before flying home on the 28th.

Germany stood out for us for the wow factor of the old castles... My
wife wants to venture through castles and the Neuschwanstein Castle
was high on her list.

According to tour guides at N'stein, lots of tourists who cross oceans to see the old "medieval castle" called Neuschwanstein are bewildered when they are told it was built more than 400 years after the Middle Ages ended; constructed ended only about 20 years before WW I began. It is in fact a royal palace with a fake castle exterior, not a castle, and the palace was inhabited buy the Bavarian King for only 6 months. Since then, it has served no historical purpose except to host tourists who want to walk through it. Anyone who is interested should read up on the place before taking the 30-minute tour.

Burg Eltz and Marksburg OTOH are the real thing - and never destroyed. Eltz has furnishings from later centuries, but Marksburg acts like a medieval castle should act. I recommend touring both. You can read about these places on Rick Steves' webpages too.

maybe setup in Koblenz for a week we could go down both the Mosel
River Valley and The Rhine Valley

Koblenz only if you feel the need to stay in a mostly modern and slightly dull city with a buunch of traffic. I think you will find that seeing both rivers by car from a Rhine or Mosel base town NEAR Koblenz will not cost you much more time, if any, and will offer better scenery and atmosphere. If you are like most people, you'll want to do a Rhine River cruise to check out all the other Rhine castles that you won't have time to visit or that cannot be visited anyway. The best cruise is either Bingen > St. Goar or a little longer cruise to Boppard. Because cruising means you 1) take the train to Bingen and 2) cruise back north, either town works great for that. But I believe Boppard is a better for driving to the Mosel destinations. Also, it's bigger - not as big as Koblenz but not so small as St. Goar - and Boppard definitely has a better choice of wineries and restaurants (many on Boppard's nicely-developed waterfront) than St. Goar and a more attractive set of old-world buildings.

...a city like Stuttgart to setup there for an extended period of time and explore the Black Forest and small spa towns that border France.

Maybe. But it is a major metropolis as German cities go and once again lacks the charm of smaller places nearby (like Tübingen, Calw and Esslingen.) If you want the Black Forest, stay in the Black Forest; you can spend a full day in Stuttgart on your way between the Rhine/Mosel and the Black Forest.

Gengenbach is a great base town that forum folks often recommend - especially if you intend to visit Strasbourg and the Alsace as well as the Black Forest. It's one of the towns on that list of half-timbered house routes I linked to in my last post.

As for Bavaria... Have a look at Mittenwald as a base. Day trips to Innsbruck, Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Füssen, and other places would be possible there. The walks/hikes/mountain lifts in Mittenwald are great, and it might be Bavaria's most beautiful town as well. G-P is a convenient base town too - and larger; you might enjoy a meal at the Gasthof Fraundorfer for its traditional food and "Bavarian Evening" entertainment.

I like driving and road trips which is why I geared the itinerary that
way but as mentioned I should stop and smell the roses, maybe just
rent a car for a day here and there and get it out of the system.

If you are looking for a road trip, you should stay in North America in my opinion. Where there are large highways and city centres have been demolished to make room for cars. There is also a difference in population density. Remember that Germany has over twice the population of Canada at an area about half the size of Alberta. Major roads can easily be very crowded and driving on them is rarely relaxing. On the other hand, Germany has an excellent and very dense network of trains and buses. So renting a car for a day when you need it is a much better idea.

My wife wants to venture through castles and the Neuschwanstein Castle
was high on her list.

Just make sure you have realistic expectations when visiting Neuschwanstein.

We were planning on flying from Munich back to Amsterdam to meet up
with our friends before flying home on the 28th.

If your wife has flight anxiety, you should in my opinion take the overnight train from Munich back to Amsterdam.

She loves seeing animals as well but I'm not sure how much you get of
that in Germany. We both are not the museum type and would rather see
waterfalls or go on short hikes...

This popular family-oriented place is a short drive from Cochem (Mosel River) and could be a fun side trip. Love those falconry shows.

https://klotti.de/en/homepage/

Farmers like the ones below who seek additional income often have apartments or rooms for guests interested in farm animals or crop farming. You can find such places all around southern Germany, including the Black Forest. You mentioned spas... this farm (Bauernhof) is in Bavaria near Bad Woerishofen, one of Germany's most renowned spa towns. In German but the pictures tell the story:

https://www.bauernhofurlaub-bad-woerishofen.de/unser-bauernhof.html

Popular hiking trails on the Rhine include the Rhine Castle trail and the Rheinsteig. The scenery from these clifftop trails is terrific:

http://www.loreley-info.com/eng/rhein-rhine/walking-hiking.php

https://www.rheinburgenweg.com/en/rheinburgenweg-1/rheinburgenweg-stages/sections-in-the-upper-middle-rhine-valley

You might find the section of this Trip Report about Fachwerkstrasse by car useful:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/baltic-germany-fachwerke-landesgartenschau

Since you've been to Germany before, you may already understand that Germans love outdoor activities even more than Americans. While I like to visit, for example, UNESCO WH Sites, I think Germans look at a place like the Roman Limes WHS (which are to me diffuse, subtle, and unrewarding as global history ... ) as a great chance for mostly level, unimproved forest trails!

You might use the Search box here, or other ways to read about the free KONUS card at many BF hotels (but not in certain big cities, like Freiburg.) This allows you to make delightful one-way hikes with ease. I used my car to see a few waterfalls, but walked back to my luxury hotel in Hinterzarten another day. I got stuck behind a short but very, very slow line at the TI, of people who could not communicate well in either English or German, so I couldn't ask for a trail map. I found the Easy trail hard to follow, but the Moderate trail I ended up on was no problem in sneakers and a windbreaker, no stick. Of course you should prepare better for serious hiking.

It's helpful to understand that the train is five to ten times faster than the KD boats, even when they are going downstream. The point is that you really need the train as part maximizing your time on your Rhine sightseeing. As Russ noted, there is no value to boating anywhere except the most scenic part of the Middle Rhine. I didn't think as little of Koblenz as Russ does (!), but we could not find a hotel there we liked, so we had a nice local stay in Andernach for a multi-day flower show in Koblenz. (Not especially recommended, just an example. We didn't use the car for two days.)

There's nothing wrong with your itinerary, but since you posted again, I wonder if you want to put more research into exactly how you want to spend your days. Here is the Rhine-Mosel section of our 2011 trip:

28 May 11 Sat through Hotel Alte Kanzlei, Steinweg 30,
30 May 11 Mon 56626 Andernach Germany (near Koblenz)
+49(0) 2632-9666-0 alte-kanzlei.de
29 May 11 Sun RhinePass boat tickets, Bingen, Boppard. BUGA Flower Show

30 May 11 Mon through Weinromantik Hotel Richtershof
02 Jun 11 Thu Hauptstrasse 81-83, D-54486, Mulheim
(2 June=Ascension Day) +49(0) 6534-948-0 weinromantikhotel.com
Trier, Bernkastel-Kues, Traben-Trarbach
Monschau, Aachen, Burg Eltz [all by car]

02 Jun 11 Thu through Hostellerie La Butte aux Bois,
04 Jun 11 Paalsteenlaan 90,B-3620 Lanaken
(02 Dinner 7:00PM) Belgium +32(0)89 73.97.70
Tongeren, Bokrijk, Diest

I'm not suggesting that this itinerary is right for you. It's worth noting that the few wineries we went to required appointments. We had a really active walking day in Traben-Trarbach, including a mostly vertical public park with paved walkways, more fun that Bernkastel-Kues, which even I would describe as touristy. T-T had a legal walk through a hillside private vineyard, where we had informal lunch and wine without an appointment.

Edit: We had to cruise around to find a parking space in the hyphenated towns. We noticed that T-T was a particular biking hub, and not just for Spandex champions.

Tim makes a good point about the convenience of trains in connection with hiking (or biking.) The rail stations along the Mosel and Rhine and on the Black Forest routes tend to be good safety valves for returning "home" after a hike if you have a delay, take a detour, or are just tired.

Of course you can pay for a ticket at the station, but the KONUS card in the Black Forest means free train use. A list of towns that hand it out to guests is below; Gengenbach is one of those:

https://bw.tourismusnetzwerk.info/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/KONUS-Flyer-PDF-Download_GB.pdf

Boppard (the Rhine base town I suggested) issues a similar freebie to all hotel/inn/vacation-rental guests - The VRM Guest Ticket. Ride the train back to Boppard after a hike, or use it to visit Cochem, St. Goar, Oberwesel, or other towns in the region around Boppard where the VRM is the local transit authority.

Tim also characterizes Germans as outdoorsy - he's right of course - and this trait means there's a system in place for loading bikes on trains and buses when you need to:

Bike car with fold-down seats and straps

VRM bike tickets (but no charge on weekends or after 9 am)

Bike-bus service on the Mosel

Bus with bike trailer

https://www.vrminfo.de/en/leisure/experience-the-vrm-region/regioradler/

Hello again. After reading, re-reading and re-re-reading everyone's thoughts (that I greatly appreciate) we have put together a different itinerary:

May 8 Amsterdam

May 9 Amsterdam

May 10 Fly to Munich

May 11 Munich - Day Trips to Salzburg/Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Zugspitze) /Andechs

May 12 Munich

May 13 Munich

May 14 Munich

May 15 Lake Constance - Meersburg vs Konstanz vs Lindau (any thoughts?)

May 16 Lake Constance

May 17 Lake Constance

May 18 Lake Constance

May 19 Black Forest- Gegenbach looks great, also saw a great place in Alpirsbach

May 20 Black Forest

May 21 Black Forest

May 22 Koblenz - Possibly Boppard instead

May 23 Koblenz

May 24 Koblenz

May 25 Koblenz

May 26 Amsterdam - Not actually going to Amsterdam but rather Utrecht outside of Amsterdam and where we are meeting friends

May 27 Amsterdam

May 28 Fly Home

Amsterdam is the only place that flies direct from our city. We figured we would tour Amsterdam the remainder of the day (wife has a fear of flying and one big flight a day will probably be enough) once we arrive to combat jet let and then spend another full day exploring Amsterdam before flying to Munich the next day. Using Munich as a basetown to day trip to Salzburg and Garmisch-Partenkirchen or Mittenwald and Andechs.

From there move towards Lake Constance, seeing Neuschwanstein Castle along the way, trying to figure out which town to stay in on the Lake. They have a very reasonably priced Bodensee Card that gives you access to a lot of different activities like cable cars to the tops of mountains, distillery tours, monkey farm and castle entrances as well as giving you a couple days to use the ferries to get around.

After that we would move toward the Black Forest to around Gegenbach to make use of the KONUS card to see around the area by train and do some small hikes/relax in some spas before moving on to Koblenz area. We will use a place in either Koblenz or Boppard to explore Mossell and Rhine river areas and also go to the Nurburgring.

We are going to try and use trains as much as possible to travel between towns and then when we see renting a car to be an easier solution rent them 1 or 2 days at a time.

I suggest that you consider changing your travel to Rothenburg (I assume you mean Rothenburg ob der Tauber). You plan to deviate from your Rhine area travels to go a considerable distance to Rothenburg, then back to Baden-Baden near the Rhine. Why not go straight down the Rhine (also why not visit Heidelberg as well), then pickup Rothenburg on your way back to Amsterdam.
If you did that you would probably not wish to fly back to Amsterdam. In that case, consider skipping Rothenburg and save it for another day.

Also, your itinerary is not bad, but you are a bit thin on spending much time anywhere.

You still have a lot of destinations in this latest itinerary.

May 11 - 14: Munich - Day Trips to Salzburg/Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Zugspitze) /Andechs

Andechs is fine as a day trip from Munich. But you aren't really doing much in Munich if you're planning on day trips for 3 of the 4 days. And I think you are shortchanging the other places - where there's a LOT to see and do - by turning them into day trips. Salzburg and G-P are better as BASE towns and nice places to stay, and you would probably enjoy having more time in both places.

I think it will get you to all your listed destinations and is doable by public transport, with the exception of the Nürburgring.

May 10 - 11: 2 nights in Munich. That's really not much, maybe a nice meal on the 10th and half a dday for Andechs plus whatever interests you in Munich.

May 12: 3 nights in Salzburg. Do one day trip to Berchtesgaden + Königssee, or to Werfen (Eisriesenwelt?? Hohenwerfen Castle and Falconry show??)

May 15: 4 nights in Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Zugspitze? Partnach Gorge? Day trip to Mittenwald? Day trip to Füssen and Neuschwanstein?

May 19: 1 night in Lindau. Beautiful town.

May 20: Half-day trip to Meersburg on May 20. Leave area around noon for Gengenbach (2 nights.) On May 21 visit the Vogtsbauernhof and another town or two with the KONUS CARD.

May 22: To Boppard for 4 nights (free day trips by train throughout the area with the VRM Guest Ticket.

May 26: Boppard > Utrecht

• Personally, I'd skip Meersburg. It's pretty too but I'd rather get to Gengenbach earlier in the day.

Look at renting a car in Munich to drive to Neuschwanstein and then to Lake Constance. Either turn it in there or use it to drive to the Black Forest and turn it in.

I like Meersburg. Very nice castle there that you can tour without having to take a tour. No train service there but there is a bus that goes along the north side that is fine.

I like to stay in Gengenbach.

I personally prefer to stay several nights at one base. But I question your current choices of "Lake Konstanz" and "Koblenz". Lake Konstanz is very pretty, but it covers several countries, and it's not clear to me whether you want to visit more than one country on this visit. (You have to disclose additional countries to the car rental before you sign the contract.) I mean, I happen to like Bregenz, Austria, but there's little reason to go that far in May. There are lots of small towns in the river-side Switzerland, and even Basel is a possible daytrip. Is the Rheinfall important to you?

While the trains on both sides of the Rhine are relatively fast, and very useful, it's unclear to me why you chose Koblenz. We didn't stay there because there weren't enough hotel choices, and many looked out of date (online). It has some scenery, but is in a less attractive part of the Rhine than (referring to your past itinerary ... ) St. Goar. You don't have to tell us everything you want to see, but committing four days to a town implies that you have (for example) researched train and bus connections (or will have a car, good and bad) to make daytrips from that location. (Obviously you're better off leaving the car at the hotel on the day you boat the scenic Middle Rhine from (say) Bingen to Boppard.)

It's really hard to judge through the distance of text on an internet board, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that you are making loose, aspirational choices without detailed research. Apologies if that is not correct.

Edit: Let me be a little clearer. This is just an example, not a route for YOU: Because some drives can be long, or tedious, we went to Burg Eltz on the day we were moving from Andernach to Mulheim. Then, we did B-K and T-T and Trier from Mulheim. That minimizes long drives, some of them on slower (if scenic) roads.

At Burg Eltz, we had to park on the grass, at least 1/4 mile from the castle. I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out that this still had some bumpy and hilly walking. (I love the idea of the easy hike from the train to Burg Eltz, but I haven't done it!) I might add that I felt that the interior 20th century furnishings of Burg Eltz were a bit of a disappointment. But on the whole, it was a nice visit, and good low-end lunch counter. The castle was still attractive that year, even with some scaffolding in place.

I found that asking Google Maps to show me photos of towns helped my planning. I also like Lonely Planet Germany for capsules of hundreds of towns Rick doesn't describe.

Gasoline and Diesel prices have come down some since the huge rise due to the war in Ukraine. In my region today EUR 2,07 a liter @ $8.50 a gallon.. There is some hording of goods like cooking oil, flour and TP, but nothing severe. Conserve by diving reasonable speeds while on the Autobahn. I enjoy driving the narrow roads in the mountains. Can be a little hairy with meeting engagements on one lane roads. Doesn't look like these itineraries will put you into any bad road situations.