2 weeks, too many interests; S Germany advice

One thing that I always liked about Rothenburg was access to the countryside, especially the Tauber River Valley. I like to birdwatch myself but am not willing to carry a bird book and binoculars. I lived in Germany as bird watcher for 3 years. There are many bird species common to North America and Europe. The majority of birds that you see there will be somewhat or very much new to you.

For bird lovers, the Frankfurt City Forest has a huge lake (Jakobi Weiher) that is home to quite a few water birds as well as the forest itself. My favorites are the Manderine ducks which are about the cutest ducks you will ever see. Lots of grey herons, coots, Nile geese, mallards, and other geese. In the forest, wood peckers are common, as well as all the regular small birds that abound in Germany. You may hear peregrine falcons as they love living in the city, making their nests on top of skyscrapers and dining on the many pigeons and rabbits that live in the city.

Surprisingly, the main cemetery is home to an abundance of birds, due mainly to the many trees there and lack of dogs. The Botanical gardens, which are free and located right past the Palmengarten are also the home of many bird species. The entrance to the gardens has a board showing photos of the many birds that make their home there.

If you have use of a car, you night want to visit the Glauberg, which was once a large Celtic settlement. It is sort of between Friedberg and Büdingen. One of the most fascinating places to visit in this area.
https://www.keltenwelt-glauberg.de/en/

I can't quite figure out how to work with what you've provided You would need dates or a specified number of nights for the places you intend to stay in order to have an itinerary - even if it's just a rough draft. Right now it reads as a random list of places you might like to visit. Dresden and Bautzen - not southern Germany at all - are mentioned in the same #2 block as Noerdlingen?

It'll be up to your travel party to decide what to drop. For now, I'll offer some base-town suggestions for some of your stated destinations...

I would base in NUREMBERG to visit Bamberg, Rothenburg, and Solnhofen on day trips. Lots of history in Nuremberg, not just WW II.

Casle-hotel Auf Schoenburg in Oberwesel, on the Rhine River, could be used as a base for visiting Idar-Oberstein, possibly Trier.

Garmisch is a good base for seeing Mittenwald.

Eichstatt and the Altmuehl Valley for fossils

Eichstatt [...] for fossils

Yes, but for train travellers Solnhofen is more convenient since the museum is opposite the station. It's a long hike up to the castle in Eichstätt. OTOH, the baroque town of Eichstätt is pretty; Solnhofen is just a village.

We lived in Augsburg for four years and did Bavaria well.

1. Bamberg is worth a day or two.
2. The Romantic Road starts in Wurzburg, so you could start from there or go directly to Rothenburg. I don't suggest basing your self in a specific town to see the road, since it is 200 miles long. Don't miss Rothenburg, Nordlingen and Dinkelsbuhl.

3. OK you want to see Neuschwanstein Castle, it is worth a visit, despite, in my opinion being a bit overrated. Garmisch and Fussen are close together and we always preferred staying in Garmisch. Recommend the Hotel Fraundorfer. Also, don't miss going up to the top of Germanys highest mountain, the Zugspitze. Take the Cog train or cable car.

4. Stuttgart, did several Army Reserve tours of duty at Patch Barracks, never thought there was much to see except the Mercedes Factory or perhaps the Porsche Factory.

We enjoyed Schiltach when we walked around it. We had a rental car and parked by the Altes Unterschächtiges Wasserrad and Schüttesägemuseum (logging museum). It was free to enter and surprisingly pretty interesting.

Thanks, everyone. Sorry about my lack of clear communication. Each number was a night (night 1 of trip, night 2 of trip, etc.). I'm sure that we could spend a week in some of the places I mentioned, or enjoy the scenery of others in an hour or 2. Please share what you think is worth more or less time. Yes, sorry, Dresden and Freiberg are not in the south. We visited and enjoyed Regensburg a few years ago. Worth revisiting it, though not this trip.

The birding ideas are especially appreciated. More options in the N, with more wetlands, etc. But...again, not this trip. I hadn't realized the birding places in Frankfurt. Special thanks for those. Also the lodging options are very useful.

So, car? Rail? Thanks folks!

I meant to add: Special thanks, too for the Celtic fort info.I'll definitely try to work that in. Checking the website, we'll have to avoid Mondays, when they are closed.

Each number was a night (night 1 of trip, night 2 of trip, etc.)

I would normally have assumed that, but you've specified just 7 nights... for a 2-week trip... with no nights in Frankfurt on both ends of the 7-day period... Maybe you're spending 7 nights in Frankfurt?

As for the 7 nights scheduled, you've built in way too much ground travel with too many car hours and too little time with boots on the ground, too much checking in, checking out, packing/unpacking, etc. IMHO. The problem as I see it is not too many interests, necessarily, but too many destinations that are spread too far apart for either a train trip or a car trip. Staying in just 2-3 places that lie within a much smaller travel circle would be more logistically practical. With 7 nights I could for example see Büdingen, Rothenburg and Bamberg on one end, with Trier, Idar-Oberstein, and Oberwesel on the other.

Hi Russ--and other who are kind enough to reply--We have 11 nights. I just don't know here best to spend them. That's where your advice on where to stay--and do day trips--is very useful. Frankly, I'd like someone (my family is not helping, though they want to go) say, "Don't go her, here, and there!" Soo many options. I live near Washington, DC, so I'm familiar with visitors who have too many sights they want to see in too little time. Russ, glad you live in Paradise, though I hope if it is Paradise, Ca, you were spared the worst of the fires.

Two things that I wanted to add:

First there is a Reiskrater Museum in Nördlingen. It is a small museum focused on the crater that Nördlingen is a part of as well as meteors in general. Ask for the English printed guide as all the signs are in German.

Second what kind of castle do you want to stay in? Are you thinking of a strong hold? Or would more of a palace fit your needs? I found some great Scholosshotels on Booking for our last trip. In fact, we stayed in three - most of them were "palaces" but still fun.

You have a lot crammed into this trip and you are not taking into account how far things are from each other. Add in Staus, finding parking (if you are driving), trains not on time, and long periods of time between connecting trains you lose time.

What you've got here, r1haskins, is one of the most creative lists of travel destinations to appear on this forum, at least in my time here. You've turned up several very interesting "back-doors" that would surely be rewarding if you had the time for them all. But given your updated time frame and your Frankfurt airport anchors, I'll tell you where to go...

Day 1: Mainz. Direct train from Airport, 20 minutes. Settle in. 1 night. See what you wish... the old town zone, see a museum, see the Dom?

Days 2 > 6 or 7: Idar-Oberstein / Trier / Hunsrück-Hochwald Nationalpark.

• Note the bus which connects Idar-Oberstein, the Nationalpark ("Erbeskopf", the main entrance) and Trier:

https://www.rnn.info/fileadmin/user_upload/800_210223_01.pdf

• Other places that would likely interest you and are worth time in this general region:

Herrstein (bus from Idar-Oberstein)
Saarburg and its Birds of Prey park
Bad Sobernheim - spa town on the Nahe River with Barefoot Path and excellent Open-air museum
Numerous Mosel River towns downstream from Trier
Voelklingen Iron Works (like Trier, this is a UNESCO World Heritage site)

You would probably need two separate base towns for these 5 nights... perhaps Bad Sobernheim or Idar-Oberstein and Trier would work. The destinations are doable by train (plus bus here and there.)

Days 7 or 8 > 10/11: Stuttgart Wilhhelma Zoo/Schloß Lichtenstein

Other places to consider in the general area...

Ludwigsburg
Besigheim
Esslingen
Tübingen

Area is also doable by public transport. Direct trains connect Stuttgart with FRA airport in 1.25 hours.

Appreciate your Camp Fire concerns... Could share some dramatic details over a beer sometime... but yes, we were spared the worst (86 of our neighbors confirmed dead) and lost only some properties, vehicles and personal effects. We've since rebuilt and are home again.

Thanks everyone, and especially Russ. The meteor crater would be interesting if we had a couple of months. We're more interested in earth rocks than space rocks. Geologists specialize as much as any other science disciplines.

Sure Russ, wish I lived closer to enjoy that beer together. i was definitely hoping the reference to Paradise was not That One. thanks for telling me where to go. Possibly your best offer today (or yesterday)!

Now, back to the drawing board, with Russ' itinerary.

A CORRECTION to one sentence in my previous post...

'You would probably need two separate base towns for these 5 nights...
perhaps Bad Sobernheim or Traben-Trarbach and Trier would work.'

That should have read as follows - and has been corrected...

'perhaps Bad Sobernheim or IDAR-OBERSTEIN and Trier would work.'

Car/train thoughts... I'd probably want the car for a week in the MIDDLE of this trip...

Days 1 & 2: Getting to Mainz on Day 1 and to Idar-Oberstein (assuming that's your base town) the next day is best done by train. Both FRA > Mainz and Mainz > I-O are simple, direct train rides. The Rheinland-Pfalz ticket (day pass) for 3 gets you to I-O - and also to the Voelklingen Iron Works, and back to I-O, that same day.

Days 3-4: I'd probably pick up a car starting with Day 3 (Autoeurope / Europcar in Idar-Oberstein?) for an outing to Herrstein, the Open-Air Museum in Bad Sobernheim, and getting around the National Park (where you will probably be making a lot of impromptu decisions.)

Days 5-7: I'd keep the car for transferring to your Trier-area base and also for outings to Saarburg's Greifvogel (Birds of Prey) Park and for driving along the Mosel River to Bernkastel (outstanding old-world town) and to your choice of other nice places on the Mosel (Burg Eltz Castle? Cochem? Beilstein?) on your way to Oberwesel for your stay at Auf Schoenburg Castle-Hotel.

Day 8: I'd probably want the car on this day to visit Schloss Lichtenstein and Tübingen prior to arrival in the Stuttgart area, where I'd probably choose Esslingen as a base town for nights 8>.

Day 9: Drive to Besigheim and Ludwigsburg on day-outing, drop car in L'burg on this day; train back to Esslingen.

Days 10-11: train into Stuttgart and back + train to FRA airport (pre-purchased saver fare)

Thanks Russ--you re a great help. We're ...recalculation! The specifics (train, pre-paying, cars and companies) are particularly helpful.

"The specifics (train, pre-paying, cars and companies)..."

Just pointing out the path that I would start out on here, really... there are numerous loose ends... I have no dates, so you have much due-diligence work on your plate to determine, just for example, whether/where/when/with whom you can actually do the suggested car pick-ups and drop-offs. Who knows whether the room you might want is available at Auf Schoenburg Castle on the date I chose? There's still a lot to decide and to handle.

The Day 1 & 2 train tickets are pretty much "givens."

• FRA Regionalbahnhof station > Mainz Hbf... this is a RMV ticket (roughly €6 each) that must be bought immediately prior to the journey.

• Mainz Hbf > Idar-Oberstein > Voelklingen > Idar-Oberstein... you can buy the Rheinland-Pfalz day pass anytime, but it's non-refundable. I'd wait until the day of travel just in case your plans change.

Same with The Esslingen > Stuttgart > Esslingen ticket... a VVS "group day ticket" that you buy at the last minute... about €14 / 3 adults

Pre-purchase DB ticket to Frannkfurt...

What about Jo's suggestions in Frankfurt at the end of your visit...? Many of us end up with morning flights back to the States. If the Frankfurt sighteeing sounds like a go, you'd want a pre-booked train ticket from Esslingen to CENTRAL FRANKFURT, probably in the early morning, on the date prior to your fly-home date, with a hotel booking either in town or at the airport. If NOT, then maybe that train ticket should be booked to FRA AIRPORT (hotel booking there) for the prior EVENING - or if it's a later flight, possibly for the morning on the same date as your return flight, if your flight is scheduled later on.

Bit of a wild card suggestion, but just across the German/French border, and about equal-distant from Trier and Mainz, is Sarreguemines. This was the epicenter of tile production during the Belle Epoque because the clay in the region was perfect. Add to that the minerals used for coloration and you have a great geology topic. Fortunately, there's an outstanding museum on this very thing: The Musée de la Faïence. It is a wonderful museum and I highly recommend it. Yes, much is about the aesthetics and the art -- which may not be your thing. But they don't skimp on the science and the mineralogy. If you are looking for something truly off the beaten path, and it fits with your ultimate itinerary, you might give it some consideration...

Our flight is due to leave FRA at 12:20 on Oct. 16th. Kills that day! Though we arrive Oct. 2 at about 8am.

Trains seem a lot cheaper than I'd originally thought. And there are all sorts of passes.

Yes, I need to check what's available on the days/nights planned. And then adjust again--either itinerary or lodging, etc. Despite the time investment, I still prefer to do things my way, though I fully acknowledge there are good reasons to use a professional travel agent!

Ms Jo's birds in Frankfurt are appealing. I'll also check birding sites. Though we live near a city (Washington, D.C.) it is easy to forget that most cities have green areas that can be wildlife havens, with birds being most likely critters to be spotted.

I'd prefer to stay in an oldy moldy castle--well, old rather than palace, though I'll take what works into the trip ;-)

History Traveler, I hadn't looked into Sarreguemines. Idar-Oberstein, though touristy and more gems than minerals, may have to be the minerals stop in that area. I'll see what Frankfurt has, for a Nat. Hist museum.

Now, back to the fun of planning. thanks everyone for putting that fun back!

The Natural history museum in Frankfurt is the Senckenburg.
https://museumfrankfurt.senckenberg.de/en/