direct German or just not a nice person?

Since this is your first posting and a strange one at that, I am not sure what you are asking from this site. Help with what? Rude behavior is rude behavior and should not be tolerated in any culture. BUT -- how rude is defined is somewhat culture related. There is some gray area. But you seem to have handled the situation.

I'm asking here because I figure so many people are well-traveled and have experienced different cultures that they would have a well-rationed opinion. What we, as Americans, perceive as rude and embarrassing behavior may not be perceived the same in a different culture and vice versa.

Since none of us were there to actually witness the incident, and none of us have met either the waitress or the girlfriend, it's going to be hard for any of us to actually offer useful information.

Furthermore, you'd have to ask other Germans if the girlfriend's behavior was "typically German" or was rude by German standards (you've made it clear by the reaction of the others at the table and the restaurant staff that it was rude by American standards).

It really depends on exactly what she said. A direct “I asked for the salad with no cheese” delivered with a straight face (no smile, no please or thank you) would be rude in much of America, but just a simple statement of fact in other cultures. I am not German so can’t answer for them specifically.

Meanwhile insulting the waitress or screaming is rude most everywhere.

I was so hoping to answer this posted question with something like "why one or the other rather than both?" or "Obviously!" to take advantage of an opportunity to either poke malicious fun at Germans or to join in on your dissing of your brother's girlfriend, but now the community has gone ahead and tried to be concerned and thoughtful and empathetic, darn. ( /s )

Some years back, I was out to dinner with friends who hadn't seen each other in a while, and one of them was fresh out of ROTC training. His natural jerkiness had been enhanced and refined by the training, apparently, because he dressed down the waitress loudly and for an extended period of time because the dish she put in front of him didn't have the mushrooms that the menu described it as having. This waitress was more than twice his age and less than half his size, by the way.

The rest of the table was aghast. We seriously considered leaving the restaurant. The ROTC guy was bewildered by our reaction, though. -- He was sure that he was doing his duty and good service by pointing out failure when he saw it, so as to correct it and prevent it from future occurrences.

So, was he just being a ROTC guy or was he not a nice person?
Yes and yes, it turns out. The two are mutually reinforcing.

OTOH, we can never know what someone else has going on, so it's probably best to be non-judgmental.
It's just that being judgmental is so much fun, when it comes to Germans and ROTC types. ( /s )

Not bs in my view.

There is such a thing as a "cultural difference" however one may interpret that. I've seen the same said of the Chinese, and unless you get a blow for blow translation of what is transpiring you won't understand the nuances, never mind the cultural cues.

Have I seen something similar to what you described among Germans? Yes, but with the parties involved speaking their own language, which I was eavesdropping on.

How often do you hear what Americans regard as normal, friendly, etc, the French see as rude, and when les français don't respond as Americans normally would, the Americans see the French as rude. Bottom line, cultural differences exist.

50+ years ago, a family in my church hosted a German exchange student who frequently came across as rude and condescending. I didn't really care for her, and I seriously doubt that she cared how I felt about her. She was far more "popular with the boys". I haven't thought about her in a very long time, but back then my mother scolded me for complaining about her, and said that Europeans were more plain spoken than Americans.

I grew up in France, my grandmother was German. We spent a lot of time in Germany with family, and they spent a lot of time visiting us in France, and later here in the US. One German relative lived with us in France.
All that said, based on what you have said, and having been a waitress myself (waitresses work solely for tips and do not hand over their table to someone else unless the situation is extreme), my opinion is... Yes, your brother’s gf was very rude. Nothing to do with being German, everything to do with just plain rude.

Having been to Germany 3 times checking into hotels eating in restaurants, the person you described is just not a nice person; and she should know better considering what happened in World War 2

waitresses work solely for tips and do not hand over their table to someone else unless the situation is extreme

In Germany?

In Europe wait staff are paid at least the minimum wage, any tips are extra. Whilst staff may cover a particular section others may move around depending on how busy they are, most tips are pooled and distributed evenly.

Restaurant is in the U.S! Posters need to actually read the OP. Geez.

“... said the waitress was stupid and shouldn’t have asked the question that she did”

Wow, the horrors of a waitress asking a “stupid” question! In some cultures wait staff can be publicly flogged for asking stupid questions. I’ve seen it and it isn’t pretty.

Your brothers GF is a rude jack ass. He’s a lucky guy indeed.

Without being privy to the entire episode, it's hard to say if it was a cultural difference, rude behavior, or, more likely, a combination. I lived in Germany and Germans are efficient by nature. But I've never had one engage in what I would call rude behavior. Can't say the same for Americans.

JC, this situation happened in an American restaurant in the US.

I’m also well aware of the difference between American and European restaurants.

Thank you Paul. I agree, i often see responses from posters who clearly didn’t read previous posts, or didn’t read them well.

My father in law is a first generation American. His ancestors all came from very northern Germany. There has been a lot of travel back and forth and I've met a number of his relatives from Germany. They might be a bit more reserved, but other than that, I didn't see much difference in manners. In fact, often the relatives would tell us to let them know if they did or said anything that would cause issues in the U.S. They never did as far as I know. It was quite interesting to observe conversations between U.S. relatives that fought in WWII and the German relatives that fought for Germany in WWII. There was a very concerted effort on both sides to be very respectful in these conversations.

I think if OP's situation happened to me, I would apologize to the manager for the behavior. I would try to be as tactful as possible but I wouldn't mind if GF overheard or not.

I think your brother should find a new
girlfriend... : )

Witnessed a similar event some years ago on a cruise. The buffet wasn't open in a timely manner and German cruiser laid into staff for being inefficient and slow. Mexican staff moved faster and opened. German continued to be brusk during meal. Only at end of meal did I realize we cruisers were working on ship time and had not set back our clocks to local time. The buffet actually opened earlier than needed, just to accommodate the impatient tourists waiting in line. I would have told the German cruiser this to allow him to possibly apologize, but he had already left.
So, yes there are rude people, and cultural differences....and the fact that on holidays in different countries even civilized people do not act on their best behaviour.
But the GF should have picked up on her faux pas and acknowledged her error. As she blamed her culture instead, she was just rude.

lots of people here blaming somebody they didn't see or hear, based on an extremely vague question.

First time poster and we have no idea how the question is loaded.

I have not enough information to say one way or the other.

Is the fact of the girlfriend's country of origin really relevant? What does WWII have to do with the price of eggs?

Nigel, you make excellent points. And I was puzzled by the WWII reference as well.

Nigel,

Blaming based on vague info... yes. Why not? It’s what the OP gave us to go on. The OP’s question is stupid.

I think jules' point about WWII was that Germans who fought on the opposite side in WWII were still respectful to their American counterparts.

cala, i believe people are referencing Jazz+Travels post... “she should know better considering what happened in World War 2.”

WWII reference was strange.

Paul, you say you’ve actually seen wait staff be publicly flogged for asking stupid questions.
Really? Where and when did you see that?

There are people in this world, regardless of culture, who are rude, impatient, and project a self-entitled attitude. People can have a bad day, yes, but a smile, politeness and respect of another human will be appreciated (from both sides.)

At times, I wonder if some threads are posted to ignite argument? The OP didn't come back to engage in the conversation. Maybe did not read replies?

edited.

“At times, I wonder if some threads are posted to ignite argument? The OP doesn't come back to engage in the conversation.”

I agree with you Girasole. I think some definitely are.

Yes, Germans can be direct and which may sound rude to many Americans. This woman though, was rude.

I come across overly rude Germans way too much and they like to use the excuse that they are just being direct. No, they are rude. Talking down to wait staff is common, because they think they are better and smarter. They aren't. My ex-SIL was rude like this. She would say things to me, her mom, her sister, etc. that would take my breath away. Yet, she would always claim to just be direct. We wanted her to tell the truth didn't we?

Rude Germans are a very common theme every time a group of expats get together, no matter what other country they are from. If they bump into you on the sidewalk, they never, ever say excuse me and look at you like why did you not get out of my way. They crowd into the train doors rather than wait for people to get off the train. Grocery shopping is an experience I don't wish on anyone, especially before a holiday. The idea of waiting in line drives them nuts and they will cut in front of you in a heartbeat. Think they would hold a door open for you? Nah, they will let it slam in your face. Think they will say thanks if you hold it open fro them? Nah, only if they are elderly. I was at an open market once with my little shopping cart when a man walked by and tripped over the wheels. He yelled at me and called me a stupid cow. Imagine how nice it is to see someone on the street you haven't seen in about 5 years and the first thing they say is "did you gain weight" or "wow, you look awful". Most of us would say how are you first.

Certainly, not all Germans are like this, but as a group of people they are ruder than people from many other countries. Working in a restaurant, nationalities were a common theme to discuss. German men raising their hand. snapping their fingers, saying "Fraulein" was heavily disliked. It was discussed why Germans rarely say thank you or please? They don't teach their kids to say this either.

Rant over.

Ms Jo, thanks for your insight. Very interesting. I had heard that the desire to correct other people's mistakes was an innate part of German culture, and part of their collective lack of a sense of humor.

Ms.Jo, interesting observation, indeed. I have similar experience with Chinese, especially cutting in line. We Americans don't like stereotyping people. Most Europeans have no problem with that. Many years ago I had a similar experience as the OP but it happened in Austria. Two of my Austrian friends were very condescending to waiters in Asian ethnic restaurant.

I also heard from a German tour guide that he much prefers English and American customers on his walking tours. He said the German's always question him, saying that their guidebook said that this was really 200 instead of 250 years old. Anglos usually just listen politely. I think it's just a definition of manners. Europeans think Americans/English are very polite. As a Spaniard said, you are always saying please and thank you in stores, where 99% of Spanish will just ask for what they want, without pleasantness.

Practically the only people who take it upon themselves to line up, stand in a queue, are the British, certainly not the French, the Germans, nor the Chinese.

Re: cutting in front of you, be it in line or in a crowd where you assume you are next, spend more time in Chinatown where it most likely will happen to you or you'll see it happening to someone else.

I am sad to say I've had similar experiences with Chinese folks or Chinese tour groups, whether its U.S. National Parks, New York City or Murren, Switzerland. I think that they live in such a crowded, busy place that they are used to having to push a bit, or ignore others to get where they want/need to be. Whether is pushing to get at the front of a line for a museum or cable car, or monopolizing a view for a bunch of reiterations of photos, they don't seem to realize that others are around. I think that it is not so much disregard as it is a lack of realization that others follow different norms.

Fawlty Towers script:
Listen, don't mention the war.
I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.
So, it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it.
So, two eggs mayonnaise, a prawn goebbels, a herman goering, and four colditz salads.
Wait a moment, I got a bit confused here.
I got a bit confused 'cause everyone's mentioning the war.
So, could you what's the matter? It's all right.
Is there something wrong? Will you stop talking about the war? Me? You started it! We did not start it.
Yes, you did, you invaded Poland.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=fawlty-towers&episode=s01e06

"...correcting other peoples' mistakes...." That does bring to mind one particular incident in eastern Berlin a few years back when this guy attempted to correct me on Bismarck and his program of social insurance. Initially I was a bit surprised at his response/behaviour but then thought...wrong battlefield, pal.

He pointed out that Bismarck's insurance program was effected in the late 1880s prior to his dismissal...obviously, which was not what I was referring when he first "negotiated with Socialism" in 1863 as the Prussian Prime Minister (Minister-Präsident). The guy conceded.

Where's the OP? knock knock. melu? lol

Sometimes people like to throw around their status to prove something - to themselves. A lot of people who are so insecure within themselves (or clueless) feel it's necessary or makes them feel better, to demean or condescend another. I've seen it in stores - not only with customers, but with managers.

A true example: I was in a store. The young girl working the front, setting up a display, greeted me and I went about my way. A little bit later, I heard this loud voice berating and screaming at the teen girl that she did not set up the display according to plan.

The girl was visibly shaken, embarrassed and ran to the back room. I was appalled as were a few others. Until I asked, I didn't know it was the manager doing all the noise making. The manager ran to the back room also. What a jerk and a spectacle. I asked for that manager's name. The other associate told me it's an internal problem with "that manager." I said, "you're joking right?" I said the manager made it an external one when she was yelling like a banshee in front of customers.

I said I would call the DM and Corporate to report what I witnessed. The other associate, I think she may have been an Assistant, asked me to not call. I stated that no shopper should have to be party to that. That poor girl was very nice. Maybe or maybe not she made a mistake, but the manager over reacted and said uncalled for things.

I dismissed the plea and true to my word, the next day, I placed those calls. They handled it. No one should be made to feel less than zero. Even IF the teen made a mistake, it should have been handled very differently. No professionalism or couth on the manager's part. Oh, and a few weeks later, I visited that store....a new manager was in place.

I'm not stating I had the power to get her fired. She got herself fired. From what I gathered, it was an ongoing problem with that manager in that store. So, it seems she was on her way out anyway. If a person is that stressed, time to find other work or take time off to get yourself together. Don't take it out on others.

Yes, I am here. And I have been reading everyone's posts. And I did not post this to ignite and run. And my question was not stupid. And I was not vague. I did not embellish. If anything, I downplayed what happened. Of course the GF's country of origin was relevant, that was the point of my question. I have no idea what WWII has to do with anything either.

I thank everyone for their insights. I was merely looking for well-traveled individuals to share their experiences as I was willing to give the GF the benefit of the doubt.

Hi melu, oops, I hope you figured I was kidding with my opening line :)

Sometimes threads can veer off. For me, your witnessing the rude behavior of your brother's gf to the waitstaff reminded me of my story I posted. It happened years ago, but, the young teen was devastated at being scolded so harshly. I included most details, but, the manager said some other awful things to the teen in front of customers.

I just had to stick up for her because of the magnitude of anger and craziness displayed by the manager.

Kindness is a lowly noun...

Girasole, i applaud you and would have done the same. I can’t witness something like that and not reach out to corporate.

Thanks Susan!

I wasn't going to delve into my past, but since Ms Jo started it, haha .... I have worked in Germany and was a student in Austria, and while overall it was a wonderful experience, and I am still friends with people I met during my time there, I do have some horror stories. Perhaps some are because I am mixed-race and that was still unusual then. But part of it is the "matter-of-fact", brusque culture. For example, most Germans do not greet fellow hikers on the trail, whereas the Swiss always say "Gruezi" or something similar – most Germans will just walk past you, expressionless. (Although we did meet a delightful, very large group of German young people on a school holiday (?) in Cornwall, hiking on a narrow trail on the Lizard peninsula, and every one of them greeted us in a very friendly way. Kudos to their teacher!) And if Germans need to get past you in a crowded situation, many will say "Darf ich?" ("May I?") in a rather impatient tone, whereas Americans say "Excuse me" and Brits say "Sorry" – which can also be said impatiently, I suppose ... but somehow the German phrase sounds more obnoxious ;-)

Trying to return a defective item at a German department store, I was driven to tears. And I was not the only one – other expatriates had similar experiences at the post office, etc. I do thank a no-nonsense German woman at a shoe store telling me NEVER to buy shoes without both a closed toe and an instep strap, as I have narrow feet. No one before or since has ever been so blunt (or cut out potential sales), but she was absolutely right.

Oh, and I was in Chinatown (SF) last weekend and an elderly lady bumped right into me – I was at the very edge of an otherwise empty sidewalk that was, what, 10 feet wide? Ha. I saw her coming and I thought, surely she won't bump into me ... oh yes, she is going to. LOL

Nothing wrong with saying, "Darf ich?" What about those who don't say, "Darf ich?"

That was my experience my time there in 1971 hearing that said. I thought it was pretty good. It all depends on one's cultural lens. A good many do say that, "darf ich?" Better than nothing. I've heard and witnessed too on a crowded train in 1971, just "durchgehen lassen." when the person wanted to get by,... yes, the use of the infinitive command form.