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Which order, trip Advice

I am considering a three week trip to Europe the first three weeks of Sept.
I am thinking about three Days in Paris to see a couple things we did not have time for last trip(mostly the Louvre)
My elderly father wants to spend a few days in Rome (we have never been to Italy) as he things this may be his last trip to Europe so we are thinking about 4 days in Rome
And we are thinking the majority of the trip will be traveling around England. Some by train but a lot by car. As car travel is easier on my Father (he will be 88 by the time of the trip)

My first thought was to Land in Paris and spend an easy day getting over the Jet leg doing nothing much. (Maybe a trip up the Eiffel Tower) An easy couple days adjusting to Europe time. Go to the Louvre and the Arc de Triumph all places that we have not gotten to on our two prior trips to Paris. So pretty laid back. Thinking an Air B&B with a nice view of the tower so we can sit and relax and enjoy the view

Then Travel to Florence for two days. Just to see the two museums and the cathedral. But we MAY skip Florence if time and walking (for my father) is an issue
Then on to Rome. Spend 4 days doing the tourist stuff. The Coluseum, the Pantheon, the Vatican, the Trevi Fountain, etc.

I expect we will use more Taxis in Rome (and Paris) then most on this forum in order to minimize the walking on my Father )
Then fly into England, hit a couple cities via train. Then rent a car to go to the Cotswolds and such. Then drop said car at our last city and fly home. (The England portion is still being determined)

The logic of this trip is as follows.

Spend three weeks so we can take our time.
Fly into Paris as we are reasonablely familiar with it (been thier twice before) and I think it would be a nice place to go slow and get over jet leg.
Florence was next only because it seams logical
Then Rome. Putting Italy up front while we are fresher. And the trip has not worn us (mostly my father) down.
Then England last because it is easier to travel in an English speaking country and using a car is much simpler and easier for him.

We did a week with a car in each of our last two trips (One in France the other in Germany) And it was his favorite part as he drive around and he could rest between stops. Plus some of the scenery was stupendous. We Drove along the Cost for France from Nice to St Tropez and then over to Avignon and he loved seeing the little towns and great views for example. But even in the Lorie Vally we used the car and he rested between Chateaus.

My question is do you think that is the best order? From a weather perspective and such England, Paris, Italy seams more logical but I am not sure if it matter enough in Sept to go against the logic of putting the more physically demanding part first.

So what do you folks think?

The key to me is that I want to make this trip as easy as possible on my Father. I figure I can always go back to Europe at a future date. But how many more chances will an 88 year old get? But I know if he gets thier and can’t see what he is interested in because he is worn out a “great trip” will crumble.

It is sad to not get to Rome when you want to go. But it is Tragic to be in Rome and not be able to go to see what you are interested in.

So if you were taking your elderly parent what order would you go in?

Posted by
6431 posts

Of course you know your father best. But to me this makes perfect sense. It's a reasonable sequence, gives you some jetlag recovery time in a city you already know, exposes you to two of Italy's best destinations, and finishes in a country where you're comfortable and can take at your own (or his) pace.

I can't tell whether you've been to the UK before. If not, my only caution would be about driving on the left side of the road. Some Americans get used to this quickly, others (like me) don't. Try to get a car with an automatic shift so you don't have to learn shifting with your left hand along with everything else.

Rome2rio is a good way to explore transportation options (but verify its results with the actual transport providers and book through them if possible). It shows flights of under two hours between CDG or Orly and Florence, but it also shows a train from Gare de Lyon with a change at Turin, total about 9 1/2 hours. I mention this as an alternative in case you want a ground-level ride through much of France and northern Italy instead of the stress of airports and such. You'll want to train from Florence to Rome, and fly from there to London.

For your British cities I'd suggest London, of course, and York, easily reached by train. You could spend a couple of nights there and rent the car to drive south, or take a train to Oxford (3 hours per rome2rio) and get the car there. Return it to Heathrow before your flight home (you could check out Windsor Castle on the way).

I wouldn't worry about the direction of travel in September, Italy might be a little warm and England a little cool but not likely to matter much.

Posted by
6733 posts

My first suggestion would be to be careful about over-estimating how much time you have, and under-estimating how much time you will burn zipping around from country to country, city to city. You say (a couple times) you want this to be a relaxed, low-key trip where you can take your time, where the pace is slow and easy. But "three weeks" (depending on how you count days) is not all that much time if you are talking about including Italy, France and the UK, especially as you describe your concerns for how you don't want to wear out your father.

The UK plus Paris would reduce the flying back-and-forth a lot: fly in to London, do your UK plan, then train from London to Paris, spend a little time there then fly home. That would eliminate all intra-Europe flights, which are probably going to consume a full day each with your father.

Posted by
124 posts

Because your primary concern this trip is for your elderly father, and because he wants to see Rome, I suggest you skip Florence this trip. Florence is a great city to visit with amazing art and architecture, but you are concerned about tiring out your father. There will be a lot of walking and standing just in the museums alone: the Louvre in Paris, the Vatican museum and the Borghese Gallery (book both in advance!) in Rome (these are must sees; there are more worthwhile museums in both cities as well). The other sights your father will want to see in Rome (Coliseum, Forum, Pantheon, Trevi Fountain, Piazza Navona, etc. also require walking to enjoy. Don't forget walking to restaurants to eat. Adding Florence before Rome may be too tiring for him. Let him ease into the trip in Paris, and then enjoy Rome.

Also, don't crowd too much in any one day - maybe plan just two sights per day, and see how it goes. He may want to take a break for a couple of hours in between activities.
Use a hotel in Paris (preferably with a breakfast) - you're just there for a few days. You won't have to deal with housekeeping, etc.
If your father can navigate stairs well, all three main cities have subways (although Rome's is more limited than Paris and London) and buses.
UK car use requires driving on the left and using roundabouts.
Suggested itinerary to consider: day 1 arrive in Paris, check into hotel, short, easy daylight strolls, dinner. Days 2 & 3 Paris. Day 4 travel to Rome, check into hotel, short, easy daylight strolls, dinner. Days 5-9 Rome (go easy, let Dad take his time and enjoy). Day 10 travel to UK. Days 11-20 UK. Day 21 travel back home.
Good luck! I wish all of you a great trip!

Posted by
4256 posts

Since your father specifically mentioned Rome, you should not eliminate it. As much as I love Florence, I would stay in Rome to minimize travel and changing hotels. If your father can handle a train if you don't have luggage, you should consider day trips from London, even to York, to make travel logistics easier. Of course, take a taxi to the train station-or stay at Paddington Hilton if the trips leave from that station, since it's easy to take Heathrow Express.

Posted by
945 posts

You have already received great advice from the forum members. Making the trip easier on your father will also make it easy on you. Sounds like you have the Paris portion thought out. I agree that if you stay in the UK (outside of London) that a car will be a good option for touring. Have driven in the UK before and driving on the left is not that challenging if you have an Automatic.

My comments are around Italy. I would skip Florence and concentrate your time in Rome. Rome is a tough city on a traveler (lost of cobblestones and the sites you want to visit require walking, climbing, and standing). You may want to look into some options for accessible tours, here is a link to Sage which has some, including a golf cart tour: https://www.sagetraveling.com/rome-accessible-guided-tours. In addition, if you go on your own, take a look at the sites for ideas on limiting the walking: e.g. elevators, taxis, places to sit (especially challenging in the Vatican Museum—which is a zoo). The websites for the locations you want to visit will have recommendations.

Traveling with an elderly parent takes more time, but some of my best memories are of taking my elderly mother on trips (US only unfortunately). It forced me to see a different view of the places that I was visiting and get joy in the experience I was providing her.

Enjoy your trip.

Posted by
739 posts

First off thanks for the advice.
Just to clarify a few things.
21 to 24 days 2 on travel. For 19 to 22 full days.

We have been to Europe a couple times in the last couple years.
The. First time we did a very typical Rick Steves bit. Carry ons and trains and a ton of walking. With a car when needed. We did 41 miles in a week and he was 86 at the time. But he is getting older.

We did London (4 days) and Paris The South of France and The Lorie Vally (14 days) the first trip.

We did Germany for 10 days, Paris for 2 days, 5 days in London, a day in Bath and Stonehenge on the second trip.

Dad is good for walking and stairs BUT he has to rest after a flight or two or steep hills. Not for long. We did the Tower of London with little issues but he sat down after stairs. He did do the whole outer wall walk. On the other hand Neu Schwanstein was more of an issue as no place to sit and a rush to get up the stairs and keep going.
This is why we avoid tours if possible so we can go at our own pass,

I have HORRIBLE luck with the Eiffel Tower. I have loved it (from afar) my whole life but the two times I got to it... did not go well. A strike the first time cut my visit to about half an hour and last year it was so cloudy and overcast that thier was no point in going up to the tower the top as you would have just seen clouds/fog. I hope the third time is the charm.

So basically we have been doing London and Paris on installments. 😁
The trip to a Germany was pretty easy for my Dad as he was born in Germany and came to the US at 18. So he speaks German. And we had a car for most of it But neither of us speak Italian. And I figure the walking and the added issues of not speaking the language tend to add to the stress factor. That is why we did a couple days in London last year. To pick up things we missed and it is easy for us so more relaxing for Dad. He didn’t feel like he HAD to keep going as we had already seen everything we really wanted to see and last year was just pick up a few things.

As for timing. Neither Dad or I are Huge on artwork as such. This is why the Louvre has been missed until now. So I figure our trip will work something like the following
Arrive drop off bags. And wonder around. Grab something to eat and just find someplace to watch the scenery and stay awake.
Then one day for the Louvre and another day for the Arc de Triumph and our third try to get to the top of the Eiffel Tower. I figure we will spend a relatively short time in the Louvre and a lot of that finding places to sit whenever possible. Otherwise fill in with simple easy stuff as we feel like it. A boat ride a Bus tour siting and having great hot chocolate (did that last year because it was cold and rainy in Paris). I think that is not to much to do.

As for Florence. I figure the three Museums and the Cathedral (no climbing the dome). And spend some time outside just sitting and relaxing and watching the views and the people

Rome would be one major thing a day. The Vatican, the Coliseum, and such. With one minor thing that is relatively close to the major. And probably taxis between to limit walking and stairs.

The original plan for the trip was 3 weeks in Italy. As that was what my Dad wanted to see. But he decided that he was no longer physically able to do this much so he decided to notgo at all.
I am trying to get him at least some of what he wants to do. But even that I figure we will only see maybe 4 majors and 4 minors. In Rome. And we will spend what is needed to have a hotel close in so we can return to the hotel to rest if and when needed.
So I am trying to compromise and get him at least something that is worth the trip. And will build in as much flexibility as we can. But a lot of Italy needs reservations so that is more of an issue. Once again thanks.

Posted by
26840 posts

I don't know about the availability of seating in the Vatican Museums, but I am doubtful about it, unless people are inclined to make way for your elderly father as they (in most cases) would on a bus. Reports of the crowding there would be a concern for me, and I would consider the Borghese Gallery instead. But that obviously won't work if your father has his heart set on the Sistine Chapel.

I'm impressed with how well you've thought this through.

Posted by
6431 posts

Just a thought about the Eiffel Tower. Yes, it's an icon, for sure. Yes, the view from the top is spectacular on a good day. But a good second choice might be the Tour Montparnasse, with a similar view (that includes the ET), no need for reservations (so you can pick your weather), and a much less crowded experience. Maybe you've been there, but if not you could give it a shot.

Posted by
739 posts

This is not my first rodio. So I am getting experienced in this travel with Elderly thing. Thus I know the pitfalls to be concerned about and the questions to ask.
It is finding the answers that is a pain.
As much as I love RS books and TV shows and such Rick does a pretty bad job of covering things needed by the elderly or people with trouble walking. This is not a slam against RS it is just what he covers. And as far as I can tell no one else is any better. But with the massive numbers of aging and elderly and the tendency for this group to have more disposable money to spend on travel it would seam logical to cover this more. Maybe as Rick himself gets up thier.

I have actually considered putting together a book specializing in this but I have no idea where to start and don’t travel that much.
But I have learnt to ask questions FIRST. I now know the tricks for a few locations but unfortunately this is after the fact...

Of course this whole website is basically predicated on the after the fact info. I ask a question and someone that has already done it give advice, usually after encountering the situation themselves.
I can now give hard won advice on several significant tourist locations. Unfortunately I could have used that information BEFORE going there. Thus I am asking more questions this time and I know the questions to ask!

Posted by
4526 posts

I will confess, I haven't travelled with an aging parent, but my mind balks at including a 5 hour flight (Paris to Florence) with all the airport time, just to start in a city that may be less pressure.
If Dad wants Rome, start in Rome and add a few days. It might be harder on you as the logistics man, but an apartment and 2 extra days means Dad is excited about being there (common first travel days) but with a few more days, he isn't obliged to be on the go every day. Rome is a little harder, but once over any jet lag, he will have the most energy of the trip. Florence would be lovely as quick train trip, flatter landscape and a direct flight to Paris. Then finish in UK.
Vatican website may address whether it allows folding seat walking sticks.....which might be a considerate tool for Dad this trip. I believe there may also be tours before normal visiting hours that might be less crowed, so easier to tolerate. I am guessing he isn't prepared to take a walker with a seat on it? Actually, you can rent a wheelchair at the Vatican. I know he most likely doesn't need one, but it could come in handy. Vatican can easily take 4+ hours and I don't remember seating.

Posted by
739 posts

Actually as I said there are other reasons to go to Paris. Things we could not fit in befor Such as the a Louvre or things that weather or strikes caused issues with such as the Eiffel Tower.
Add in that my Father is the type that if you dropped him into a new city he would be wanting to rush out and start doing vs taking it slow and resting up. One thing I have discovered from traveling with elderly relatives is that Long distance air travel (say 4 hours or more) can be noticeably more tiresome for them then for your average younger person.

I have even talked to a physician that is a specialist in the care of older patients and he said it s important to rest after travel of that order. So wherever we land will basically require the day of our arrival to be pretty much just relaxing. This is the advantage of doing this in a location we know how to work with and that we know we can handle because we have done so before. So that would be London or Paris on this trip
As for the time. This trip is set at a much different pass. We are hitting a few places but if you look at what is planned for the trip your average traveler would do all of it in half the time.

The other option, to hit Rome first is a bit like jumping into the deep end.

On our first trip we stayed in Nice. It was about the halfway point and the first day after London and Paris. And I could tell that my father was getting tired by then.

By pure accident I had rented a hotel room with a great view of the Med. and a gorgeous balcony with comfortable chase lounge chairs. We got to the room, and Dad took one look at the view and for the first time in the trip was willing to sit down, relax and just enjoy the view.
He even let me go out walk around by myself for a bit and bring back a snack and drink. He took a nice nap and spent the afternoon until dinner time sitting down and looking at the view. After dinner he did much the same. And he fell asleep early while looking out the door wall. The next day he was refreshed and ready to go.
So I am kind of working on the same theory this trip.
Get him a nice view in a place he can relax. Mix it in with enough activity to keep him awake to adjust to the time change. If I had a clue how to pull that off in Rome it may be different.
Another Advantage of Paris is it is about 2 plus hours shorter flight then Rome. And returning from England is also shorter. So we divide the flights into smaller chunks. For an 80+ year old 8 hours is a long fligh. Adding in two to three hours more is going to be that much worse.
Speaking of flight times. How did Paris to Florence or even to Rome turn into a 5 hour flight? It shows up as a couple hours on everything I have looked at.
So thier are advantages to Paris. And reasons to go to Paris beyond get over jet leg. That would probably put us in Paris anyway. And in order to make the trip doable for an older person some things have to be done that in a more standard trip would be dumb. Or vied as a waste of time. But allowance has to be made for my older traveling companion.

I really wish thier was more information about traveling with the elderly available but I am afraid it is a lot more limited then regular travel advice. So I am having to play it by ear learning as I go.
For instance Dad had his mind made up that he wanted to do a Beefeater tour last year. He thought they looked fun. So we got in and took the first tour in the morning. My dad having been a Sergeant in the Korean war had a blast with the NCO beefeater. But keeping up with the fast walking pass especially in the uphill segment was a bit rough on him. As it turns out however the beefeaters stop at the same spots so we could have slowly walked to the next place waiting for the Next Beefeater. But we didn’t figure that out until the end.
After resting up a bit he was good to go again and on our own at our pass he had no issue walking the wall walk. So it is learn as you go.

Posted by
4526 posts

《 One thing I have discovered from traveling with elderly relatives is that Long distance air travel (say 4 hours or more) can be noticeably more tiresome for them then for your average younger person. 》which is why I don't understand adding an extra one to your itinerary. I just think Paris second would work and made mention to add more days for Rome for a slower pace even if Dad wants to head out right away. Finding an interesting balcony would be great. Rome has green spaces as well as interesting street life. Ultimately, the decision is yours but I can't see the benefit of adding a pretty full day of flying needlessly.
I have buried both parents and am over 60 now, so I can see the challenges and turmoil to do right by your father.....you are not alone. Becoming the care giver for a parent, in whatever capacity, comes with the emotional burden of not wanting to let them down, but not having sufficient guidebooks as to how to go about it. And as the child, we still want to please. Just like parenthood, there is no instructions. You can try to work as a team, be honest with your parent, or if all else fails, say you want to go back for a nap, though it is he that is flagging. He wouldn't admit it, but he would do it for you.

Lastly, perhaps you want to ask in other travel forums. TripAdvisor has destination specific forums, as well as Senior Travel forum. Unfortunately, more of those questions are the elderly trying to find a tour to meet their needs, but also children looking to support their parent'sinterest to travel. Whether they come back to answer questions may be uncertain, but you might find solutions using the search fields.

Posted by
4132 posts

I'd probably go England > Paris > Rome, but any sequence that uses the Eurostar between Paris and London would be optimal from a logistics perspective.

So, Paris > England > Rome as good if you prefer it. I'd probably let air fares decide.

Note that Paris is very busy with conventions in September, so you will want to make plans and reservations soon.

Italy will still be quite hot but less so at the end of the trip rather than the beginning, probably. Put some restorative, not-running-around days in your itinerary.

Posted by
8572 posts

Make this an Italy only trip.

Fly into Rome, train to Florence, train to Venice, train back to Milan and fly home from there.

IMHO one must see Venice. So unique.

Pre book popular and iconic tourist sites:
Colleseum
Sistine Chapel
Statue of David
The Last Supper

Spend time simply sitting outdoors at cafes watching the world go by.

My two cents.