Most new format North American driver licenses are Vienna Convention compliant (no IDP required?)

I am not sure exactly what the Vienna Convention specifies for licences, however I would have some questions:

• Are the codes for the groups (section 9) the same?
  • The groups used in the EU are here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Fahrerlaubnisklassen.png
  • The Washington DC example you give (click here) shows group A only (motorbike?). The Ontario example (click here) shows group G2, which doesn't exist in the EU list.
• What about Height (5 metres 2 cm?), weight (120 Kg), that is a very tall thin person. And expiry (02/21/2018), 2nd day of the 21st month??
• At least the Canadian one has height 178 cm (units given) and dates in unambiguous YYYY-MM-DD.

In the end it is up to each government (French, Italian, Austrian etc.) to say which licences they do and do not accept.

And the British AA is reporting that UK licences will need an IDP post no-deal Brexit, and those are definately EU compliant: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-international-driving-permits

Just have a correct format licence is not enough to remove the need for an IDP.

The numbers for the fields for heights, weights, eye and hair color are not from the Vienna Convention (nor are they included on European licenses) yet the US and Canada are using the same numbers (?); there's some coordination there. The classes in field 9 are not the same but if not driving a large van or motorcycle, why worry.

The British AA is clearly staking out a position to sell lots of IDPs with a ridiculous page, let's buy some stock.

Love the year-month-day format! That's the true international date format. Day-month-year seems illogical.

In the end it is up to each government (French, Italian, Austrian etc.) to say which licences they do and do not accept.

True, but there's no longer any justification for the IDP, if rationality makes any difference. Mostly federal laws are not well tailored for tourists, which is expected, but it means a gap between law and enforcement. Somewhere I read an interview with a French police captain who said they only enforce the IDP req against non-Roman alphabet licenses, but the law is written more broadly than that.

I was surprised that all Canadian licenses east of Manitoba are in French. Didn't know there were French speakers in PEI, NS, N & L.

Hopefully nobody from the current administration reads this website

Sounds like a states' rights issue to me.

I was surprised that all Canadian licenses east of Manitoba are in
French. Didn't know there were French speakers in PEI, NS, N & L.

They aren't in French (except Quebec) They're bilingual - French and English. There are French speakers (usually bilingual outside of Quebec) in every province and territory.

We can joke with Tom (hey, I have a lot of boxes of rocks in storage I could send you to sort), but I appreciate this information very much. I have never rented a car in Europe and have no current plans to do so, but before every trip I go through the "What if" thought process. Now I know I should keep on top of this situation rather than just assuming an IDP will be required forever.

I'm curious as to who is spearheading this effort on behalf of North American drivers? It doesn't appear to be either federal government, and certainly not the AAA/CAA who reap a bounty from the current situation selling IDPs and photo services. I'll admit I don't think either organization sells the 3 IDPs that the BAA seems to! Imagine taking 3 versions of IDPs to Europe?

I may have answered my question, it appears to be the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, at least in the USA.

https://www.aamva.org/FL-ITN-DriverRelatedCredentialPrintSolutionExh3-022016/

0.7 Compatibility with ISO Standard for International Driver License

This standard generally follows the ISO/IEC 18013-1: ISO compliant driving license – Part 1: Physical
Characteristics and Basic Data Set; and, Part 2:Machine-readable technologies. The ISO standard (which was
developed under leadership of the U.S.) specifies requirements for a card that is aligned with the UN Conventions on road traffic (covering among others domestic and international driving permits), and also addresses security and interoperability issues in general. Taking advantage of the investment already made by ISO in the ISO standard and of the international expertise embodied therein, this standard continues to move toward full compatibility with the ISO standard while at the same time making adaptations to accommodate local requirements.

Just because it sorta looks like it, doesn't make it one.

When I received my newest Colorado driver license, I was surprised at how much it looked like the EU licenses several of my coworkers have. Checking at that time, I found it didn't comply and the IDP was still required.

"I was surprised that all Canadian licenses east of Manitoba are in French. Didn't know there were French speakers in PEI, NS, N & L."

As C.Jean mentioned, as Canada is "officially" bilingual there are French speakers in all provinces in varying degrees. The heaviest concentrations are probably in Ontario and Manitoba. Quebec is primarily French, and have a language law (Bill 101) to make sure it stays that way (businesses can be charged and fined if their signs aren't prominently in French). New Brunswick is also officially a bilingual province. Some parents in my area camp out with tents and sleeping bags at local schools to make sure they can get their children into one of the French immersion schools. However despite the popularity of French, you'd be hard pressed to find someone in B.C. that speaks French except in Federal government agencies.

Although my D.L. is newer, it doesn't appear to be compliant with the E.U. standards. I opted for the 2-in-1 card, which also includes my Provincial Health card on the back.

Checking at that time, I found it didn't comply

What didn't comply? It doesn't say "permis de conduire" but then the German one doesn't, either. Place of birth is missing, but then when you get an IDP you just verbally say this to the person filling it out so it's not verified in any way. You can verbally say it to the police also, or carry a passport for that. And the class system is different, but if renting a basic car that's not a problem. Certainly good enough for Germany and France without a second thought.

Page 66 https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road_traffic_EN.pdf

Note that this is only the first step toward compliance, getting the classes in order wouldn't be difficult.

EDIT: Looks like the requirement of the French "Permis de Conduire" was removed in the 2011 regulation update.

It doesn't comply with regulations that make an IDP necessary because it was designed to follow the Real ID requirements, not to obsolete the IDP. Numerous fields needed are not there (or not aligned with the specified content), you have already noted most of them.

In other words, all of the US and Canadian driver licenses are changing so they look very similar to fulfill the Real ID requirements and nothing else. The coincidence that they also appear to be very much like the EU licenses as specified by the Vienna Convention is just that: a coincidence.

Will this lead to a future additional change to make them sufficient to remove the requirement for an IDP in some foreign countries? Maybe. We can only hope.

Vienna Convention is just that: a coincidence.

You didn’t read the link in my post up 5. Most licenses in the US and Canada are being coordinated specifically to meet the Vienna/ISO conventions, at the state and provincial level, this is the first iteration.

Real ID is something else and involves a star on US licenses in the upper right corner to denote that certain types of identification were shown during the application process, and that there are security features.

Note this Real ID compliant license is not Vienna compliant

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/local/amp/how-to-get-real-id-deadline-documents-needed-dmv-13506372.php

I did read the document. Plenty in there about Real IDs, Federally acceptable IDs, Non compliant IDs, and so on. Nothing about specifically making the standard match the Vienna Convention or eliminating need for the IDP. Nothing about saying any Real ID is also compliant with the new regulations stated in the document if it was designed or issued prior to the document.

So, if I'm driving in a country that currently requires an IDP and have an encounter with law enforcement, I can just use my regular driver's license (that is now up to some standard) and then show them a copy of this thread, right?

What could possibly go wrong...

Seriously, though, I just don't understand the stubbornness shown by some against the IDP. As has been noted, it's cheap and and easy to get--easier, say, than researching and then slogging through a 130 page document, for instance. And, if it's the law of the land where you plan on driving, you should get one. It's really that simple.

Just trying to see your point. Trying to have a civil conversation. Maybe learn something new and important. But I guess this topic is done.

Until I am told by the country I am visiting that an IDP is no longer required for persons with US driver licenses, I will continue to have a valid IDP with me when visiting those countries. Easier and less stressful than worrying about it.

Just renewed my Non-Real ID California license, so it's IDP's for me another 5 years. Gives everybody time to figure things out.

Hopefully nobody from the current administration reads this website, I
can't imagine they would be happy to hear that red white and blue
American licenses are being emasculated by following European
standards or treaties.

The Vienna Convention is very much an international treaty. And while the US isn't known for following international standards, every step in that direction certainly is a good thing.

However, as many have pointed out. Because it looks like a European licence doesn't mean it can be used in Europe.

USA citizens still don't need the International Drivers Permit
https://www.tripsavvy.com/international-driving-permits-for-the-uk-1662365

For us, to get the IDP it is a bit of a pain the the A--

There is not office within 75 miles of where we live. Closest is in another state.

USA citizens still don't need the International Drivers Permit

@geovagriffith
The link you posted say holders of US licences don't need an IDP to drive in the UK, they still need one to drive in some other countries (France, Italy, Austria etc.)
And it isn't citizenship that decides, it is which country issued your licence, which could be different. It is in my case, I am a UK citizen with a Swiss Driving Licence.

Rented a car three times in the past two years and twice I needed to show my IDP (of all drivers) before they would give me the keys.
You can take any chances you want but assuming you live in or near a moderate sized town I don’t see how it worth $20-$25 and half an hour to take a chance with part of a trip cost thousand of dollars. It is not like you can “fix” the problem while on the the trip if it turns out you needed it.

I think there is one point being overlooked.

While one function of the IDP was to organize information into a uniform format to address language issues and clarify information; the other very important part of the IDP is to serve as a Notarized Document that you are carrying a valid license.

Among the probably thousands of forms of Drivers licenses in the world, use of varying authentications (Holograms, UV Light images, water marks, etc), as well as renewal methods (paper validation to carry with you until you get the "real" license)...it is very easy to make a fake license and present to someone in a Foreign Country who is not familiar with what it should look like, and what anti-counterfeit measures are in place, and have it accepted. (As our friends that post on here periodically offering just that, tell you.)

Putting the information in a standard format and labeling it uniformly is a good step, but uniform authentication does not seem to be part of the plan.

There is not office within 75 miles of where we live.

AAA will issue the IDP by mail if you can't get to their office. Details on the AAA website.

I have a NY State Enhanced DL (REAL ID compliant); I can guarantee you that NYS will not change any of its formatting to comply w this Vienna Convention standard, REAL ID is expensive enough to comply with for the states.

Paul has a very good point regarding fakes. But also noting that Real ID compliant DLs are not mandatory (at least in my state) so that there will be effectively two kinds of licenses around for the foreseeable future, to further confuse the issue. I don't see the people who need to see your license abroad to be trained to distinguish whether your license complies with the Vienna convention, little gold star notwithstanding.

“Place of birth is missing, but then when you get an IDP you just verbally say this to the person filling it out so it's not verified in any way” - I’m no fan of the IDP, I think it’s a bit of a scam, but this point is not true.

“USA citizens still don't need the International Drivers Permit” - Of course not, they rule the world. The link you provided just relates to driving in Britain, and it does not make any clear conclusion: “you probably don't need an IDP for the UK,” is not a firm statement. Then again, CAA or AAA do not make firm statements regarding the IDP for certain countries. They ‘recommend.’

And every province in Canada is officially bilingual, except for Quebec, which made the rest of us officially bilingual.

“Place of birth is missing, but then when you get an IDP you just verbally say this to the person filling it out so it's not verified in any way” - I’m no fan of the IDP, I think it’s a bit of a scam, but this point is not true.

I don't know about Canada, but I can assure you that the AAA never requires showing a passport or birth certificate to obtain an IDP.

Some follow ups:

The purpose of this post was to

1. Inform North Americans on the progress being made in the driver license area to conform to an international standard, as far as I know an effort not led by either federal government and not publicized in media.

2. Try to combat the false information that an IDP is a translation, frequently posted on this site. The local officials don't want translated words, they want standardized, numbered fields. Also by showing a European license and these new format North American licenses side by side, a person can see how very close they are.

3. Inform some large state/province residents (BC, California, NY, Michigan, VA) that they are not yet complying so email your state/provincial representatives.

4. If you have one of these newer licenses, start pushing it with rental car people that your license is in the European format and show them the numbered fields. The fields might be out of order but order doesn’t matter.

Further notes:

The date format used on the Canadian and US driver licenses is not the same as commonly used in Europe, however the Vienna Convention does not require a certain format so they are still in compliance.

Additional fields like height and weight are not required so these can be in any units of measure.

Re-reading the “place of birth requirement” in the link above p 66, that isn’t required either, see footnote 1 “The place of birth may be replaced by other particulars defined by domestic legislation”

Also pink color is suggested but not required.

So that leaves the only non-compliance as class field 9, which the long document from aamva linked above says is being worked on to comply with Vienna, and AFAIK the various states are not using the same classification system anyway, so compliance here may not be a struggle.

I will admit to not cross referencing the various Vienna / ISO/ UN standards referred to above and in these linked documents because I think that these are all different names and locations of the same standards.

If you have one of these newer licenses, start pushing it with rental car people that your license is in the European format and show them the numbered fields. The fields might be out of order but order doesn’t matter.

"Pushing" your license on the person working at the rental car center might work...and it might not. Personally, I would not want to wait until I'm over in Europe to find out if the clerk I'm dealing with allows me to rent my car or will instead be, say, following the rules they've been taught and requiring an IDP from someone with a US license. But that's just me...

If you have one of these newer licenses, start pushing it with rental car people that your license is in the European format and show them the numbered fields. The fields might be out of order but order doesn’t matter.

As many people keep saying, whether the rental people do or do not accept your licence is irrelevant. The real question is whether it is legal. And you will only find that out the hard way if you are unlucky enough to be stopped by the police. "Driving without a valid licence" can be expensive, or you could even end up in prison.
The only definitive statement of what is or is not legal in a country is that country's government website, not the rental company, not any organisation in your country (and not us).

Driving without a valid licence

The validity of US or Canadian licenses isn’t in question. IDPs don’t make licenses valid.

Pointing that as the reason for IDPs fades so should the requirements.

I see that every country has its own requirements and that some specify an IDP for all non-EEA licenses, others like Germany specifically ask only for Vienna compliance and in cases like that it is worth pushing (if renting a car). Also worth pointing out Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium accept North American licenses as is, I am sure there are other countries in Europe where that is true.

Well, speaking of France: https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?article376

The validity of US or Canadian licenses isn’t in question. IDPs don’t make licenses valid.

That is the whole point, they do!
Your US or Canadian licence is only valid in France, Austria, Italy etc. if you have had it validated by an IDP. Without the IDP it is an invalid licence in those countries, and you are committing an offence.

James, the embassy of France in DC isn't always reliable about this, the "notarized" thing they have just made up.

Here's the French Law, note that the validity is not conditional on the second part.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1459

Le permis de conduire étranger doit remplir les 2 conditions suivantes :

1. Être valide
2. Être rédigé en français ou être accompagné d'une traduction officielle ou d'un permis de conduire international

Still not really much value in quibbling about what valid means. But I've learned all Canadian licenses east of Manitoba satisfy #2.

Tom, up-thread you said you wanted to...

Try to combat the false information that an IDP is a translation, frequently posted on this site. The local officials don't want translated words, they want standardized, numbered fields.

And then in your most recent post you quoted French driver's license requirements for short visits (I'll be nice and translate...)

To be valid

Be written in French or be accompanied by an official translation or an international driving license

This would seem to indicate the IDP is viewed equivalently to an official translation. Which would indicate that, at least for France, the IDP is viewed as a translation.

A translation allows a layperson to deduce which field is Vienna # 1, which field is Vienna #4b, etc., if the license is not in the Vienna format.

Since AFAIK there’s only one version of IDP and the same text is used for every country/state/province/territory license it can’t be a translation of any of the specific licenses.

This would seem to indicate the IDP is viewed equivalently to an official translation. Which would indicate that, at least for France, the IDP is viewed as a translation.

It says a translation or an IDP. To me that says not that an IDP is viewed as a translation, but rather that an IDP will give them the same necessary information that a translation into French would - namely, that your home license is a current valid license, not expired and not suspended. That's really all that an IDP does and why it has to be used in conjunction with your actual license. Viewing something as an equivalent is not the same as viewing it as a literal translation.

Indeed, it does say 'or'.

The French list 3 ways to satisfy this requirement--a license written in French (let's call that option A), or an officially-translated license, which we can call B, or an IDP. let's make that C. Sadly, for the purposes of this deeply important discussion, the French do not tell us why an IDP satisfies this requirement. Is it a translation? Is it the format? We just don't know, as they are silent.

However, if we can agree that in this case A=B, and A=C, then it follows that B=C, or that an IDP is, at the least, viewed the same as a translation. Does that make it a translation? I guess, from the amount of posts this topic is creating recently, that this is a deeply personal decision :-)

At this point, I am thinking it would be less confusing to discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.