Please sign in to post.
Posted by
32517 posts

wow. by the time you start to get into the article, it ends. Such a short piece. And so much that could be said.

Posted by
7277 posts

So now I have to wonder about historical knife and spoon usage. Were pointed knives (as opposed to later, rounded ones) used to spear food, eating a hunk of meat as if it was a lollipop? Same with a potato?

Or if cutting something on their plate (or in a bowl?) with a knife, would a forkless diner hold the food down with their spoon?

At least every culture seems to agree that spoons surpass forks and knives when it comes to soup - unless one just slurps directly from the bowl.

Even in our enlightened modern age, hands and fingers might still have to be used some of the time. They’re still prevalent for bread, french fries, crudités, and hot Buffalo chicken wings. And for sandwiches too, most of the time.

Straws have become the “evil” implement, now.

Posted by
2487 posts

And what about the hand which holds the fork, and whether the fork does its work alone or together with a knife?

Posted by
4495 posts

And what about the hand which holds the fork

It’s mentioned but not talked about. As Nigel says it’s so brief.

This article offers a possible French connection.

https://www.insidehook.com/article/food-and-drink/reason-americans-use-fork-way/amp

Maybe also offers insight into why Americans standardized right side of road driving about the same time as the French, but I think the scholars’ viewpoint is that the 2 countries did that for the same reason simultaneously but independently.

Were pointed knives (as opposed to later, rounded ones) used to spear food, eating a hunk of meat as if it was a lollipop? Same with a potato?

Yes that is the way I read it to mean.

I stopped fork side switching decades ago. It was occasionally commented on as being odd, but I haven’t heard that in many years.

Posted by
7277 posts

Side switching is weird. It wasn’t used by any of my family growing up, and I hadn’t noticed that technique used by others until I’d eaten a lot of meals, some using a knife, along with other utensils.

I’m left handed, if that somehow would make a difference. Now that I think about it, slicing potatoes and an onion last night, I held the knife in my left hand. Cutting a steak, and eating the resultant piece with a fork that had been stabbed into that part of the steak, I use my right hand to hold that knife. So without thinking about it, at least for me, ambidexteriosity exists for operating a knife, but lifting a fork or spoon clearly requires the dominant hand, lest I miss my mouth and wind up sticking food onto the side of my face!

The mechanics of eating are similar to those of gardening, now that I think about it. Shovels, spades, pitchforks all move material when turned upward. Pointing down isn’t too efficient. Of course, elegance isn’t a factor in gardening, but table manners are seen differently by some folks than by others.

Posted by
2417 posts

My objection is the ham-fisted use of the term 'Americans' to mean the exiled Puritan colonists of early New England - most non-native occupants of North America weren't those Protestant outliers, but other Europeans venturing abroad from the more civilized areas on the Continent. They had different eating habits.
We've had a couple centuries of upbringings here in the USA of holding fringe WASP culture up as the standard by which we measure what's 'normal' or 'typical' and it's been holding us back from joining the rest of the world for too long.
On the evolution of eating implements, consider how the development and distribution of cheap and effective saws and cleavers changed the way foodstuffs were prepared -- there were not many steaks or bacon strips when most animal carcasses were being pulled apart or hacked into joints instead of sawed or carved.

Posted by
3514 posts

I am left handed (actually more ambidextrous) so my fork is always in my left hand. I cut what needs to be cut on my plate with a knife held in my right hand using the tines of the fork to steady the item being cut. Simple and easy. No swapping back and forth between hands. But the knife is only in my hand while being used to cut, otherwise it is placed on the edge of my plate furthest from me.

I find it difficult to watch people eat who hold their fork upside down (tines down) and use their knife to pile food onto it to then place in their mouth. Seems overly complicated. Might as well use a spoon instead of the fork. The fork has pointy things, use those to stab the food so if doesn't fall off your fork if you must.

Posted by
915 posts

This reminds me of a humorous scene in “Cranford” in which Michael Gambon’s character is speaking about the forks he’s inherited from an earlier generation. Meanwhile, Imelda Staunton’s character is chasing peas around on her plate trying to figure out how to spear more than one pea at a time. Finally, Gambon uses his knife to shovel the peas into his mouth.

Posted by
3039 posts

I eat like a German. I keep the fork, tines down, in the left hand. I use the knife in the right hand. I do not switch. It is completely idiotic to move the fork from left to right hand to put food in the mouth. The only advantage is that it slows down the eating.

Amusingly, during WWII, some movies used this style of "left-hand fork" as a sure-fire test for when someone was a German spy. If they did not use the idiotic "switch-hands" style, they had to be a Nazi.

Posted by
7277 posts

Rachel, there are “regular” forks, salad forks, and dessert forks. I guess there’s also a pea knife?

Paul, if this isn’t too personal a question, are you right-handed? Slice with a knife in your dominant hand? Undoubtedly spread butter with a knife in it, too, I’d guess. Maybe we lefties aren’t consistent when using knives.

Posted by
8377 posts

Even in our enlightened modern age, hands and fingers might still have to be used some of the time. They’re still prevalent for bread, french fries, crudités, and hot Buffalo chicken wings.

There are those who would disagree. All these things can be eaten with knife and fork, more cleanly if less expeditiously. I remember my first visit to Germany when I got the stink eye in a McDonalds from a mother for eating fries with my fingers in front of her kids. Then I realized why they provided a little wooden fork with the fries. I don't remember if thats still the case.

Posted by
3039 posts

I am right-handed. But I work hard at being ambidextrous. While in college in the 70s, I broke my right wrist, and this forced me to write left-handed (badly). But I have at times done left or right-handed mouse control. I am good with either.

Posted by
7277 posts

Paul, bravo for your dexterity! Anyone with just one, or no hands, certainly has to come up with other means to use many of the modern conveniences. So rules must apply differently to some.

stan, I wonder if the mother and her kids used a fork and/or knife for pretzels. I recall stepping into a McDonald's in Munich in 1976. I was surprised that their shakes were listed on the menu board as “Happy Macs.”

Posted by
7277 posts

So changing the subject to different flatware, one of our local PBS stations is showing a Downton Abbey marathon. One of this afternoon's episodes from Season 3 included Mr. Carson quizzing a new employee about spoon types. A whole row was laid out for identification by the new guy . . . tea, grapefruit, pudding, etc. The tough one was the bouillon spoon, with a smaller scoop than a soup spoon. If you have the means, you can have a lot of different utensils. Hopefully you know which is which when you’re the user, and use the appropriate one, correctly.

Later, Mr. Bates, wrongly in prison, was at a table with other inmates, and all were shoveling in jail food. Everyone (including Bates) used a ham-fisted grip. No threading the handle through fingers. Not sure if that’s an English thing, a 1920’s thing, a prisoner thing, or artistic license for a TV program. No one in the scene was dainty or fussy, that’s for certain. And I suppose pointed metal forks weren’t issued out at mealtimes in prisons then.

Posted by
3514 posts

Cyn, It appears to be the way Europeans in general hold knifes, forks, and spoons: gripping the handle firmly with all fingers. It does give what can be called a ham fisted grip when compared to the US way of holding forks and spoons similar to how many of us hold a pencil.

Google: "Pictures of Europeans eating with knife and fork"

Posted by
759 posts

If we are getting into American traditions shouldn’t we also discuss the use and history of the spork?

Posted by
5697 posts

Does anyone else find themselves unconsciously switching between American and European fork-handling ? Within the same meal ?? Cutting meat seems so much more efficient keeping knife in the right hand, fork in left..

Posted by
3514 posts

Ufkak, that is the best way especially now summer is near and we will mostly be eating grilled items outside.

Posted by
5239 posts

I have so many variables it really depends on what I'm eating. A standard meal that consists of items that need slicing then it's knife in the right hand and fork in the left, tines down however if there is something that requires scooping such as peas or mashed potato then then fork is rotated to shovel position. I never hold knives, forks or spoons in a 'ham fisted' grip but rather the 'pencil' style. If eating something that doesn't require a spoon such as a bowl of pasta or noodles then I'll simply use a fork in my right hand. I have never engaged in the cutting something, putting down the knife and then switching hands for the fork, that's something I always associate with Americans along with cutting food with the side of the fork.

Posted by
14804 posts

I was told by an American history professor that the practice of Americans changing the hands became popular before and during the American Revolution. It was a form of protest to tell the British that they were not happy and wouldn't accept basic British customs. Eventually it became so popular, changing hands became the norm.

Posted by
1315 posts

It was a form of protest to tell the British that they were not happy

I think that is a very civil kind of protest. Much more so than beheading the king as they did in France

Posted by
3514 posts

Cutting meat seems so much more efficient keeping knife in the right hand, fork in left..

Well, that would depend on whether you are right handed or left handed or ambidextrous. In other words, what hand gives you the most control when cutting meat? And do you only hold the knife while cutting or do you keep it in your hand until done eating?

Posted by
5239 posts

And do you only hold the knife while cutting or do you keep it in your hand until done eating?

I'm right handed, I cut with my right hand and the knife stays in my hand whilst I eat with my left. If no knife is involved, ie just a fork or a spoon then I use my right hand. I don't have any particular difficulty in using a fork in my left hand compared to my right hand. A knife isn't solely for cutting, it is also used to assist in moving food onto the fork.

Posted by
3514 posts

I have no issue moving food onto my fork, held tines up, without involving my knife after I have used it to cut the food items into bite sized pieces.

Ah, the US and UK. Not only separated by a common language, separated by conflicting usage of eating utensils. ;-)

Posted by
432 posts

What an interesting thread! I am second generation Canadian as my grandparents all came from northern/central England during the early 1900's. My hard learned lessons as a child when using a knife, fork and spoon, came from grandparents/parents British practices. You don't use your fingers to push food onto your fork - you use your knife. If you are cutting something, you use your knife in your right hand, fork in left to hold item down, then put the knife down to eat with your fork in your right hand. You don't cut everything on the plate that needs cutting, you only cut what you need at the moment. If you don't need your knife, it is laid on the side of the plate at a position away from you. Soup is eaten with a large spoon that is drawn from the side of the bowl in front of you and you sip from the edge of the spoon - you don't jam the spoon entirely into your mouth. I can still hear my mother's voice ringing in my ears....."eat nicely..!

Posted by
2417 posts

I guess it's my turn this round to grumble about the gross generalizations (sorry for the 'z') where Americans do this and Europeans do that:
Who are these theoretical 'Americans' and caricaturish 'Europeans'?
All the linked articles are about particular fringe breakoff sects of WASPs or Puritans or particular royal families with specific histories -- it's a long stretch from what went on at one in-bred court or one settler colony to all of Europe or all of America.

For context, let me mention that anthropologists and archaeologists are regularly in the habit of using statistical analyses of the number and shape of eating implements recovered from digs to surmise how those living there ate and socialized - how big were the plates and bowls and pots? Did people have separate plates and cups or share from platters or some combination? This kind of study can help us understand a lot about the conditions in a given locale, especially when comparisons are available with nearby settlements in place and time.
Here's an example:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25763806?seq=1

Posted by
344 posts

Wednesday 9.30 pm.

After a break I have dropped back into this to this delightful travel forum to see what has been on travellers’ minds and stumbled across this fascinating discussion.

It is well into the evening and I am just finishing off my second scotch, so could ramble a bit, misspell and become incoherent. No, I have not been taking hydroxychloroquine.

Here in the extremities of the antipodes I am still using flint to cut my food and the cut down branches from the local eucalyptus and acacias to pick it up with. Forks with tines sounds like a great invention.

I am not ambidextrous but have in the past been known to be amphibious and dive for scallops and crayfish (southern rock lobster) and collect a few oysters from the inshore reefs. A fork sounds like it would come in handy with these.

Thinking that perhaps I should get my children to send me some of those forks, and a few knives so I can try out the different styles of eating heretofore mentioned. And get a table too. May try a unique apparatus from Asia that I have overheard on the digeridoo network, chopsticks. Rumour has it that they are a bit of a handful.

Perhaps when I next check in a discussion on the merits of Dr Samuel Johnson and Noah Websters approach to the English language will be in full swing.

I think time for a third scotch.

Keep on planning, stay healthy and safe. Next year is nearly here.

Regards
Ron

Posted by
7277 posts

Ron, there’s a handy oyster knife, too, which makes getting the shell open just a tiny bit easier. It’s still a challenge, and I have to wonder who first conceived of being able to open what looks like a rough, flat rock, for a tasty morsel inside.

And if you get some chopsticks, they’re kind-of blunt on the ends, but if you rub an end long enough on a tough surface, it can become a handy spear for sticking into your food. And if you don’t set it on fire, it can make a barbecue skewer for those crayfish.

A whole ‘nuther debate could be started about BBQ methods, sauces, etc. And whether forks, knives, and/or hands are best when consuming it!

Cheers on your next whisky, and you’ll be celebrating the New Year before most of us, being so many time zones ahead!

Posted by
927 posts

I adhere to standard U.K. table manners. Fork in left hand, knife in right. They are only ever put down together. It’s incorrect to eat with the fork in hand only. The ends of each implement should be in the palm of the hand, no pencil grip. Fork is tines down throughout the meal. Nothing should be scooped.

Posted by
7277 posts

Alright, Helen, that’s clearly the British way, drive on the left, fork on the left. So the 90% of you that are right-handed make do, manipulating your fork with the left hand?

So how does one manage mushy peas? Balance them on the back of the fork, and get them into your mouth, before they slide through, or off of the tines? And then if anyone, heaven forbid, eats non-squished peas? They tend to roll about, but scooping solves that.

And a jacket potato - the baked insides beg to be scooped from the skin enclosure. Does the potato get levered onto the back of a downturned fork, using the knife as a scraper?

Soup, bouillon, and broth have to be scooped, so is a spoon the only implement where a scoop technique is acceptable etiquette?

Posted by
734 posts

Cyn i dont get your point about being right handed? Which i am. Why should the fork have preference over the knife? No problem at all using the fork in the left hand. No problem eating a jacket potato either or peas. Not a fan of mushy peas, so not a problem either! After the majority of the knife and fork eating world do it this way😀

Posted by
7277 posts

caro, I’m a lefty, but hold my fork in my left hand, and cut with the knife in my right. Same thing for my husband. So we’re different-handed than right-handed Brits, but wind up using the same hands as you for cutting and for lifting food. For precise maneuvering of a fork, getting food into my mouth and not in my eye or up a nostril, I want to trust to my dominant hand! And in my and my husband’s case, cutting food that’s on a plate isn’t hard using the right hand with the knife. As long as it works for someone, that’s the main thing.

Folks with the use of only one, or no hands, they’ve got another whole set of issues to deal with. Happy eating, and May The Fork Be With You!

Posted by
4022 posts

I'm a 3rd generation Canadian with British roots and while my Mom insisted on a lot of table manners, most were designed to keep young boys from starting food fights or pushing peas up the nose of self or of a sibling. The only cutlery rules that I can clearly remember from her was to hold the fork pencil style and not bite down on the cutlery while pulling it back out. Personally, if I'm eating something that requires cutting, then I cut with my right hand and use in the fork in my left, but I switch to the right if a knife is not required. To me it comes down to efficiency to leave the fork in my left hand if I'm cutting, but I require the finer motor skills of my right hand if the food could roll off if not stabbed.

Posted by
5239 posts

Not sure if, when one is not served a salad knife as in video, that it is proper to ear the salad with fork in right hand?

When would you not be served a knife to accompany your salad other than when you're a toddler being weaned?

She's eating perfectly fine, that's how I eat but not sure about the "aggression" aspects, I've never considered it in that way.

Posted by
3514 posts

I find someone holding onto their knife throughout the meal and not putting it down at all to be a sign of aggression. ;-)

When would you not be served a knife to accompany your salad other than when you're a toddler being weaned?

When the salad is made from items already cut into bite sized pieces requiring no cutting to fit in your mouth?

I worked at a homeless shelter off and on for a few years helping to serve meals and clean up afterward. The hungriest people held their forks and knives the way it is shown in the video, not putting either down until their plate was empty. When the shelter tried serving family style (didn't last long due to various reason and we went back to cafeteria style), they used their knives to get another roll or piece of whatever by stabbing it on the serving plate. They also sat hunched over the plate in a very defensive posture as if they expected someone to try and take their plate before they were done. Because of this, when I see someone holding their utensils in the British/European way it makes me feel uncomfortable even though I know these people are not hungry and homeless.

Posted by
8377 posts

I recall Emily Post or maybe it was one of the other etiquette references stating that both styles have equally valid histories and neither should be considered the one correct way to eat. Its the folding salad onto your fork instead of cutting that has me befuddled.

Posted by
3874 posts

As a "European", I've honestly never noticed a difference, this must be a British thing... haha!

Posted by
4495 posts

When would you not be served a knife to accompany your salad

Surely you are not suggesting something as gauche as eating a salad with a dinner knife! Then what would a person do with the soiled dinner knife between courses? It can't be placed back on the table, and holding it while waiting for the main course plate would be way too aggressive.

Just wondering if when not using a knife to eat a salad whether the fork can be used in the right hand, say as like a spoon as when eating soup.

Posted by
7277 posts

With the exception of an Iceberg Lettuce wedge, what salad could possibly need a knife? Salad greens should be served already torn into forkable pieces! And potato salad, macaroni salad, egg salad, coleslaw, Jello, etc.; No knife required.

The one exception would be Emerson Lake and Palmer’s Brain Salad Surgery, but that album would’ve called for a scalpel, not a salad knife.

Posted by
5239 posts

Surely you are not suggesting something as gauche as eating a salad with a dinner knife! Then what would a person do with the soiled dinner knife between courses?

You use the knife that is set for the main course. No requirement for the dirty knife to be placed on the table as it should remain on your plate alongside your fork to indicate you've finished and thus removed.

Posted by
3514 posts

You use the knife that is set for the main course ... it should remain on your plate alongside your fork to indicate you've finished and thus removed.

Does this then mean they place a clean knife for you to use with the main if you used the only one on the table and it was collected when the salad fork and plate is removed? In my thought processes, if there is only one knife it is definitely for the main and indicates the chef feels no knife is required for the salad.

Posted by
3514 posts

Cyn,

I was once served a caesar salad in a very fancy restaurant (business dinner/meeting) where the romaine leafs were left whole and coated in the dressing. A knife was definitely required for that one. But they also brought out the necessary utensils for each course one set at a time instead of having the table set for everything to start. This was in Milwaukee. I have never run into this approach anywhere else, but I also do not dine in places of that high of a price level often.

Posted by
5239 posts

Does this then mean they place a clean knife for you to use with the main if you used the only one on the table and it was collected when the salad fork and plate is removed?

In some places they might although it's typical for a place to be set with the appropriate amount of cutlery if they're going to do it properly. However it depends on the establishment but if I use a utensil to eat my first course I fully expect a clean one if it's not already in place.