Two countries, too much?

I think it depends on how long the planned trip is? But in general, Paris and London are very easy to combine. In that case, book an open jaw ticket to Paris and home from London or v.v.

Hi, Carol. Welcome to the Forum.

We're delighted to help, but need more information. How long will you be in Europe? Are you a "sit in the piazza with a coffee or drink and people-watch" person, or do you plan to hit the ground running, viewing museums, churches, galleries...

You'll get lots of questions and suggestions here, and you may have to occasionally remind yourself that we mean well. Let us know a bit more about your timing and interests, though, and we'll have plenty of ideas for you.

Edit to add: Yes, I know "piazza" implies Italy, but place, even italicized, looks like "place."

As Badger says, the key is how much time are you planning to be there, as to whether doing both makes sense.

If US is home, it could be cheaper to fly INTO London and OUT from Paris, due to the way UK airport taxes are structured.

You would have to plug in your choices ( dates and your origin) to see what works best.

Thanks for the suggestions. I plan on a week in Paris and a few days in London and a trip to Wales for a few days. I love museums and people watching. I will need to pace myself as I'm not young! Thanks again!

As others have said, it depends on how long the total trip will be. If you're thinking something like 3 days in each of 2 countries just so you would have seen a bit of both of them, for me staying on 1 country would be better. But people have different preferences. Someone visiting France might end a trip to Paris and environs with a few days in another city such as Nice and fly home from there. It isn't so much different from ending the trip in London. Or at least it wasn't pre-Brexit, but for the traveler hopefully that won't make too much difference once travel resumes. And it sounds like going on the chunnel is something you'd really enjoy.

If you do both countries, as a first-time traveler I'd suggest England first. It will be easier to get around since you already speak a variant of the local language. Getting around in France isn't that hard, either, but it would be a bit easier in England (especially when you're still getting used to the local time)

France is one hour ahead of Britain (six hours ahead of eastern US vs. five hours), if that makes a difference. It seems like you plan to spend about two weeks on this trip. A week is a good amount of time for a first Paris visit. Three days isn't much time for London, but hopefully you'll have a chance to return on another trip. The "Explore Europe" section of this website has a lot of info about both cities and countries, including our host's recommendations on using your time. But of course your own choices might differ.

As for Wales, the southern part (like Cardiff) is a fairly short train ride from London, but if you're interested in the northern part or rural areas anywhere you may have a time problem. And I'd be very cautious about renting a car and trying to drive on the left. Some people have little problem with that, but it's hard for me.

The Eurostar is by far the best and easiest way to get between Paris and London. Try to get your ticket several months in advance if possible, as the price rises dramatically the closer you get to the date. At the same time, as with all travel, I suggest looking for refundable flights, trains, and accommodations as best you can, since there's still much uncertainty about Americans getting into Europe and sights being "open" by next fall. Given how much better Britain is doing with vaccinations compared to the continent, I'd guess Britain is likelier to be "open" than France by then .

Welcome to the forum and have fun planning your trip -- hopefully the first of many!

If this is your first trip to Europe, you might consider hitting London first and Paris. Adjusting cultural to Europe is little bit like jet lag in that you may need to time to settle in. Big advantage to landing in London first is they speak English, more or less, so it is easier to adjust. Then Paris will be different, most still speak English in the touristy areas, but you will have a little experience with dealing with a different currency, meals, etc. By the way, the train to Paris is the EuroStar. We are headed to London on Sep 22 for about ten days and on to Paris for another week or so. Of course, it is tentative.

I went to eastern Canada in 2015, London in 2016, Italy in 2017, Greece in 2018, parts of the Netherlands and Belgium in 2019. So far my preference is to only travel to one country at a time, unless I think two neighboringcountries should be similar enough. I would pick either England or France but not both. Starting with my trip to Italy, I have been writing myself an itinerary, before major trips, with the assistance of guidebooks, listing one or more major activities for each day, where I am sleeping, how I am traveling between cities, and so on. I find the action of looking at my guidebooks and writing it, quite helpful. I don't like the idea of just winging a trip or making random or last minute decisions. My plan for handling language barriers is - and this is my suggestion: I travel with a dictionary and phrasebook, and I teach myself certain phrases before I leave home, thinking I need to know the language, but then in the country, sometimes I say words and phrases or speak a few sentences in the language; the vast majority of the time I keep my mouth closed. I intuitively feel like it would be an embarrassment to talk American English to strangers in another country. I travel solo too. You should write yourself a supposed itinerary and post it, for better answers.

It doesn’t matter much which order you cover the places, but if you have longer in Paris, you may want to go there first as the first day or 2 could be lost to jet lag. Otherwise your shorter time in London maybe a blur.

Whichever order, don’t spend time doubling back and book an open jaw ticket. The price of this may determine the order.

I love museums and people watching

Given your love for museums I wonder if you are short-changing London a little. The fabulous thing about London is that most of the big-hitter museums are free to visit, and you can come and go as you wish. Natural History Museum (look on line - so much is available on line because of the lockdown, a great time to see what's there and get excited), Science Museum, Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A)(has so incredibly much to see - please tell us what sort of thing would interest you, the V&A has so very much, from ancient sculpture and columns used by people preparing for the Grand Tour, to shoes and fabrics and everything in between), the British Museum, the British Library (much zippier than it sounds), National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery, Imperial War Museum, Sir John Soanes Museum, The Wellcome Collection, The Wallace Collection, are all free to enter, along with many others. You could spend months getting around all of those, and people watching in the courtyards and in the cafes is great, so if you only have 3 days in London you will have to make many difficult decisions. What to leave out?

What did you expect to visit in Wales?

Go to England first since this is your first trip to Europe.

I agree with going to England first for a few reasons. Airline tax wise it’s less expensive to fly into London than out of London. You won’t have a language barrier. My first trip to Europe we ended in London, traveling there from Paris. Visually London was a letdown after Paris, but maybe that’s just me. Paris is my favorite city and I’ve now been 6 times, with plans for another trip at the end of this year. I’ve been to London twice and enjoy it very much. I have plans to return next year. If you have two weeks, you might want to spend a week in London and a week in Paris, flying home from Paris. There is a lot to do in each city. What draws you to Wales? If it’s not something specific I would encourage you to limit yourself to London and Paris. If you must go to Wales I would headed straight there on arrival in London (don’t drive after a long overseas flight) and spend a few nights there, then divide the rest of your time evenly between London and Paris.

As stated above, traveling between London and Paris is fast and simple via train. If you buy that ticket early on (be careful about cancelation policies, though, for a trip this year), it will be very reasonably priced.

I suspect that you will want to visit more than one place in Wales and that you will find transportation there rather slow. Do investigate travel times to and within Wales before planning to go there for just a few nights. Also be aware that--at least in the Cardiff area--October is the wettest month of the year in Wales. That would be something of an issue for me since the weather may be coolish as well.

Edited to add:

I meant to provide the website for the UK trains: nationalrail.co.uk

Bobby, from Mars,

I know what she is saying but it is a bit of a stretch.

Flying from Luton it would take her at least 15 minutes by train and 10 minutes by bus from the station to the terminal, at least 30 minute before departure to run onto the plane, not counting security and walking to the gate, plus time from home, so that's at least an hour, then an hour flight, then an hour (not RyanAir, but Easyjet ok) into Paris. So just about 3 hours but not less, and not sane.

Train from St Albans City to St Pancras International 22 to 35 minutes, minimum 45 minute check-in and security, 2:15 on Eurostar.
That's 3:22 minimum.

Ooops - lost an hour to the time zone. Add an hour.

But I see what she's saying....

Carol: Depending upon where you are going in Wales it may make sense for Manchester to be your arrival airport. There are several nonstop flights from North America to Manchester and there are discount airlines also that serve the city.

London can be an overwhelming city to arrive in, and the transportation costs for a trip from there to Wales and back will be significant, more than you are expecting anyway, and getting into or out of London is always a time-consuming hassle. For southern Wales Bristol might make sense for your arrival airport, even if it means arriving in London first then immediately connecting to Bristol. I notice that from JFK (just randomly picked that origin) Aer Lingus has a fare to Bristol via Dublin return from Paris for $670, in July.

2 countries: As long as you have the time, 2 countries is a great trip. Feel free to splash out with a return flight directly from Bordeaux, Marseille, or Nice! Go for it, and think beyond London/Paris.

Generally, I think the linear trip itinerary, say arrive in Bristol depart from Paris, is the preferred option, and the orbit trip itinerary, say arrive in London, spend 10 days and take day trips out into the countryside like a comet, rushing out each day and then back for the night, is less efficient and more expensive and less satisfying.

You know the saying “one in every crowd”? I am the one. You have been warned.
That being said I will go counter to almost everyone on this forum.
In 2018 I did a trip to Paris/London that expanded to include the French Riviera and Chateaux country. I did this with my then 86 year old father.
We spent 4 nights in London. And 5 in Paris. And we saw and did pretty much all the “standard” tourist stuff in each location. Will you see everything? No. But you will see the major stuff you are interested in. Just make sure you plan well and do things close together to avoid time in transit. Also spend money yo get a hotel in the heart of the city near the tube/metro so you minimize the time in transit. If you save 1/2 each way per day you get 14 hours of extra time. This is 1 to 2 full days of tourist time. (Most folks are awake and up about 15 hours. -1 hour to dress wash and what have you. -2 hours eating time. And you have about 12 hours a day. So you gain about one extra day.)
I have done two London/Paris trips. I hope to someday do a third.
Personally I would rather hit the highlights and move on then spend three weeks in one place. Plus spending a shorter time in each means you have reasons to go back. And the experience from the first trip to learn from so the second trip is usually a bit easier without the hiccups.
Also Paris and London are. Two of the largest airports so you often will find them a good option to fly into and out of.
I have a Cousin that did Paris on the installment plan. Her work kept flying her through Paris. So she would spend an extra day each trip on the way home. She did this about 18-20 times and has seen all of Paris by now. So no law saying you have to do it all at once.
As for the order of the trip. I tend to disagree there as well.. I fly to the most difficult place to communicate first. There is very little in London that will be good practice for Paris. But I find that the longer I am away from home and what is normal for me the more things get annoying. So I spend time in France early in the trip when these minor hiccups are just fun little reminders of being in Europe then I head to GB where the communication is simpler later in the trip as the communication issues start getting annoying. It is the pebble in your shoe bit, would you rather a long walk the first day of the pebble or the 14 day the pebble was stuck in your shoe?
Also the flight from London is shorter and thus better on the way home when the wind makes the flight time longer (you get to Europe faster then you return home usually, because of going with vs fight the jet stream).
As for the train ride.... it is nothing to write home about. I am a train buff and take trans just to take trains. However this trip is nothing special. It is a nice train and the stations are nice to see (if you are a. Harry Potter fan, pop in next door to see the location of platform 9 3/4, and get a ticket for any fans you know who are not on the trip with you). That being said it is the best way to travel between Paris and London,

Also I would suggest you categorize your things you want to do into A, B and C. A is must see. B is would be nice and C is if we have time. Then try to creat a day with one of each. You WILL do A, you probably will do B and if you have time/money/energy left you will do C. Also look for a few things. You can fill in at the last moment such as a night buss tour if you feel like it .
I find folks who do not travel a lot and havre never been to Europe have little real idea how much they will be up for in a give day. And they plan a busy day with no flexibility then get tired or want to spend some extra time somewhere but the schedule s so ridged they can’t change it.
I did that in a US trip. I was offered a fre cab ride up a mountain in a steam locomotive (just about the dream of all train buffs) but didn’t have the flexibility to take it...
Well this is my opinion..

Welcome to the Forum.

You’ve received some good advice. As you’ve mentioned this is your first trip abroad and you’ll be traveling solo. You’ve asked pertinent questions.

I’ve traveled to Europe most often solo since Nixon was in office. My perspective is as a solo female traveler who has been to both Paris and London more than once. Have not yet been to Wales.

As I understand your post you are considering seeing London, Paris and a bit of Wales. You didn’t say exactly the number of days your trip will entail I’m a math atheist, you said a week in Paris , “a few days” in London and a “few days” in Wales so by my count at least 2 weeks. IMHO that isn’t enough time to throughly appreciate 2 metropolitan cities and whatever you desire to see in Wales. Save Wales for another trip.

I believe you should visit London first then take the EuroStar to Paris and spend an equal amount of time there. If you are going for 2 weeks, spend an equal amount of time in both. Remember arrival and departure days cut into the actual amount of time of exploration and appreciation.

Fly multi city ...US to London Heathrow ( LHR is an experience in its own right ). After exploring London board the EuroStar at St Pancras to Paris. Please consider allotting time have a tea, coffee, cocktail or meal in the Booking Office restaurant inside St Pancras before your departure, it’s gorgeous.

Fly home from Paris.

For London people watching simply sit on a bench in Hyde or Regents park, meander about Brick Lane, visit Spitalfields and Portobello markets or walk along the Thames Path. For people watching in Paris find a cafe with sidewalk seating. Order food or coffee and enjoy people watching to your hearts content.

Before finalizing your itinerary compose a list of your must sees. As Nigel has pointed many of the museums in London are free. Depending on your interests many can occupy hours of your time.

Let’s hope travel will be safe by October. Continue your research. Both of the RS guides on London and Paris are full of valuable intel. As your intended October travel nears take a look online at Timeout London and Timeout Paris.

You should also review The Londonist and Journeywoman websites. Lastly, if memory serves , the sun will start setting around 4pm in October.

Safe travels

Douglas makes some interesting points, like going to Paris first where the language barrier is interesting before it becomes annoying (though I don't get the pebble metaphor). And his A-B-C suggestion is also a good one. Do the A sight first, then see how much time you have and how tired you are. However, some of the big museums are open certain evenings and less crowded then.

Maybe you could share what you want to do or see in Wales. If it's north Wales, the suggestion to fly to or from Manchester might be a good one. It's a good airport.

EDIT: You posted your initial question on the France board, but you might consider the England and/or Wales boards for anything more specific about those places. You'll get more people reading your questions who might have good answers.

I, too, travel solo some of the time. My first visit started in Paris (1976), not alone so to speak, but I was abandoned in the airport by the 'school group' while I was waiting for my suitcase (it was separate as I was from a different US college than the rest, so I'd flown into the the departing US airport). LOL. After being paged at the airport with the hotel name, I was left to find my own way to the hotel...and it was done. My point being, you can do it, either way, you will be fine. Both perspectives are fine. Both cities are pretty easy.

That being said, I find the most stressful part of travel are travel days, even now. Consequently, I would leave the travel in London and Wales for the end of your trip, when your are more settled. I would start in Paris and spend the week taking in the ambiance, museums, patisseries... It is easy to get from the airport to Paris, or line up a car service to deliver you to your door. Do which ever makes you feel most comfortable. If you don't speak French, learn a few essential words/phrases to be polite and start the conversation. I find Parisians to be very helpful and friendly without prompting.

I enjoy trains and enjoyed the Chunnel (tunnel/Eurostar) for the experience and it is the best and most relaxing way to get into London from Paris, IMO. After a week in Paris, you will feel more confident, and less stressed, when traveling to London and traveling to Wales. I have never been to Wales, but I'd enjoy even just going to Cardiff for a change, if that is what you'd like to do. I wouldn't rent a car by myself on the left side of the road on my first trip to the UK. But that is me as I prefer public transportation and have not rented a car yet solo abroad...but there are other solo female travelers whom probably can discuss that experience with you.

You'll have a great trip either way! The women on here helped me greatly when I took my first completely solo, non-touristy, trip to Europe so just ask in another post about that aspect if you have any questions or concerns.

Since this is your first trip to Europe, I disagree with Douglas about going to the most difficult destination first. It will be easier to get your feet wet and learn to navigate public transportation where you speak the language. I think you need at least 2 weeks to do your itinerary. You should plan your trip to start and end on weekends to maximize the time you can stay. Good for you doing this on your own.

Others will disagree, but we like to have afternoon tea when we arrive in London, skip dinner and go to bed early. The right venue(we like Fortnum and Mason but it is expensive) can be very restful after the flight. If you do this, be sure to choose one(like FM) that will let you dress in business casual.

I am utterly brain-dead after what is usually a totally sleepless night on the plane, so I would never pre-book anything for my arrival day; it would probably be wasted money. I try to stay outdoors, vertical and in motion. It's difficult to fall asleep while walking; in other situations, all bets would be off.

If you're one of the fortunate people who gets several hours of sleep on the plane, you may gain about half of a productive day at your first destination. Therefore, it's an excellent idea to have some plans about what you might do if you're in good shape as well as what your fallback plan will be if you're fighting to stay awake. Check on gardens, etc. Do be careful in really crowded conditions, because a jetlagged recent arrival is no match for a professional pickpocket.

The questionable utility of the arrival day at the beginning of the trip is one reason we often recommend that people get to their hardest-to-reach destination on Day 1: It's a productive use of jetlagged time. For you, the toughest destination would be Wales if it remains part of your itinerary.

If you do decide to go to Wales, as has been suggested, flying into a
more local airport from either France or the US might make sense.

Another option is to fly to Dublin from the US and take the ferry to Wales, it is around 3 hours by ferry from Dublin to Northern Wales. Manchester is also a good airport for Northern Wales.

I think you've gotten a lot of good advice - and since some of it conflicts that goes to show there is no one right answer. About two weeks is a reasonable amount of time to combine London and Paris and even do a short 2-3 day) side trip to a countryside location.

I tend to think that London first makes the most sense since it's a bit easier to acclimate and get over jet lag and get in the 'travel frame of mine' without the language barrier (slight as it is even in Paris). And if you find there is indeed financial benefit to flying into London and out of Paris that would be another reason.

The only advice I'd give is maybe decrease Paris to 5-6 days and add that time to London so that you do maybe 5 days in each (plus one more for the jet lag day to whichever you start with) and then 3-4 day for Wales. And figure out what it is you want to see in Wales. And do NOT think about driving.

You could easily fill up two weeks with a week in just one of those cities with day trips or side trips in that same country. But they are so easily combined I don't see the benefit. If you were talking about two destinations that you had to fly (or all day train) to connect that would be one thing. But the London/Paris combo is so easy and I think on a first trip you'd enjoy it more getting a taste of two cultures.

Someday someone needs to explain to me what skills you practice in London that will help 5-10 days later in Paris?

The language different. They drive on the other side of the st, the underground works completely differently then the Metro, the electrical outlets work differently and use different plugs, In short there is no more in common between London and Paris then between New York and London.
So I have no idea what advantage you get from going to London First.
A few years back I did London (first ever visit) and Paris (first ever visit) and then on past Paris but I can’t think of anything that was helpful by doing London first.
The next trip I did it the other way. I ended inLondon/England. And that was nice because it is easier to communicate in English and I find as the trip goes on you just get more worn out even if you don’t realize it. So making the trip easier as you go helps.
But as I said I can’t think of anything that I practiced or picked up in London that was of use in Paris

Someday someone needs to explain to me what skills you practice in London that will help 5-10 days later in Paris?
The language different. They drive on the other side of the st, the underground works completely differently then the Metro, the electrical outlets work differently and use different plugs, In short there is no more in common between London and Paris then between New York and London.

You left out the money is different, restaurants typically serve different meals, they have different views of historical events (say the Napoleonic wars), and so on ;-)

What you gain with travel are not drop-in identical skills but what are more aptly termed meta-skills.

A first-timer visiting Europe will need to get from the airport to the hotel, check in, find places to eat, use public transit, use maps, handle small purchases, become aware of different customs such as greeting shopkeepers or if you are allowed to pick items up, etc. There are more similarities than differences; for example regardless of whether you are in Paris, London, or NYC to ride a subway in the city you need to figure out the closest station, find the entrance, plan what station you want to get off at and what line to take, purchase a ticket, enter the system, etc. If like most Americans you've never done this in the States then the first time is going to be much more confusing than the 10th, even if the 10th is in a different system where things have somewhat changed.

Of course the more one has traveled in the US the more one has been exposed to this but someone from (say) Modesto may find NYC or Chicago perplexing. Add in a language barrier so you can't ask locals for information and help, it becomes more so.

Yes there is basic “travel skills” that are useful/needed. Such as how to get from Airport to hotel etc. However most of these skills are pretty typical of travel anywhere including in the US.

And in most instances I have to believe that someone going to Europe has probably done at least some travel in their home country.

As for things that are unique to England or France as opposed to the US. Those things also are (for the most part) unique to each individual country as well.
Thus I contend that the theory that starting in England and easing into the rest is of little to absolute zero value. However I contend that the exact opposite is of more use.
People are people. And in general even those who love travel have typical ways of doing things and laces they go and the farther away from this so called norm they are the more stain/stress they are under. Even if not aware of it these little differences can and do begin to drain people.
The different language being one of the biggest. And while in general you can get by in almost all major countries with only English for most folks this still gets in the nerves after a while.
It is my contention that by making the trip in order from “hardest” to “easiest” means that as the little things that get annoying on a trip (language, packing, beds that are to hard or too soft. Etc) will be offset by making things easier.

Once again I am not saying this is the only way but I do contend that it is better then the old saw about “easing into the trip” as I noted elsewhere that very little one experiences in England will make getting a taxi in Paris easier.

I actually do not think Paris is harder per the description of her trip. I took quite a few trips to Europe before getting to an English speaking country.

You can easily know what to do for metro or auto bus by reading before arrival. Paris is the best city to start in for all of Europe, IMO. And actually Heathrow is a much better airport to fly out of than CDG.

And as an older solo female traveler people will go out of their way to help, in my experience.

I am with Douglas on this one, plus with my previous post’s stated reasons.

Flying into Dublin to take the ferry to Wales is not a great idea. It
would take a lot of time and be really inconvenient.

True, but travelling to Wales, especially the north, from North America is inconvenient no matter how you do it.