Trip planning, France (Dordogne, Bordeaux, Basque, Carcassone) and Spain (Basque towns, La rioja)

You'll need to swing back eastward before getting as far as the Picos de Europa area, which I though had the most dramatic scenery I saw in Spain, but the Spanish Basque countryside is also very nice. There should be some good hiking in that area; I'm sorry I cannot make specific suggestions. However, the Euskotren passes through some pretty scenery and makes a lot of stops. It's possible you could walk a segment that's not too far from either Bilbao or San Sebastian without making it an all-day affair.

I really enjoyed wandering around Bilbao, because other than the Guggenheim, it's not terribly foreign-touristy. I walked along the estuary between that museum and the medieval Casco Viejo and later through what I think of as the "downtown", around Moyua Plaza. I like late-19th/early-20th century architecture, so the downtown area was interesting to me.

In San Sebastian it's worth walking around both sides of the river. The east side was less touristy at the time of my visit, but if you zoom in on Google Maps, you'll see that both districts are full of restaurants and bars. There were so many tourists, it was hard for me to appreciate the city. I'd compare it to Taormina and Annecy in the density of foreign tourists.

Olite has a forgotten air about it. It's not a village, but it may be right up your alley. It's not overwhelmingly blessed with places to eat (it's really quite odd), so it might be worth doing a bit of research on that if you expect to be there at mealtime. Laguardia, on the other hand, has quite a lot of places of the wine-bar ilk. I don't think you'll go hungry there. There's a church of architectural interest (I don't remember the details); in the past you had to stop at the tourist office before visiting it, perhaps to pick up the key. I happened to visit on the day of a fiesta when the T.O. was closed, so I can't say how worthwhile it might be. In Laguardia, incidentally, I believe you need to park below the town. There's at least one elevator to take you up.

I made brief stops at Estella and Puente la Reina. Didn't see another tourist in either place. If you're passing by, you could check them out. I think they're on the pilgrimage route. I don't remember sights other than perhaps old churches--nothing terribly exciting. They're not very far from Olite.

You may also find yourself near Vitoria-Gasteiz. Not many people seem to go there. There's a good-sized historic district on top of a hill, with outdoor escalators to assist you. The city has multiple art museums as well as a playing-card museum (which I didn't have time to visit). At the time of my trip (2016), Vitoria-Gasteiz public transit used the same stored-value card as Bilbao, which is useful to know because I think there's a modest charge for the card itself. Also at the time of my visit, the cathedral was undergoing major restoration. It wasn't open for regular visits, but there was a once-a-day English-language tour offered, which I found worthwhile.

I enjoyed wandering around Bayonne's historic area, which is rather extensive. Some streets were pretty lively during mealtime, but I don't remember noticing many foreign tourists. I liked the city.

There are Basque Museums in both Bayonne and Bilbao. Bilbao also has an organization promoting the Basque language. It has a sort of museum that can be visited. I was lucky they could connect me with an English-speaking staffer quite quickly, because the other visitor as the time I was a Spaniard who worked as an English teacher, who was fine with having the tour conducted in English.

I had read good things about Pau and expected to enjoy a few hours of just wandering, but that turned out to be a really, really rainy day, so my plans were washed out.

Thanks, Anne, you always have great information! Yes, now I'm remembering that I've seen video of Picos de Europa. It looks pretty spectacular. I could probably go west as far as Oviedo/Cuidillo before swinging back. I'd probably have to dump Carcassonne if I do that. Any thoughts about Carcassonne? I have a large map of Europe that I've highlighted cities/towns of interest. Carcassonne is all by itself on my map, with the exception of Albi. I guess when we get to doing Arles/Avignon/Aix, Carcassone could be a day trip from there??

I haven't been to Carcassonne, though I've been all down that coast . Maybe next time. I did like Toulouse (the pink brick gives it a look quite different from most other French cities, and I liked the lots-of-students vibe) and Albi. Both of the latter can be very hot in the summer but should be OK in September should you find you have extra time.

I've just noticed that you're looping back to Bordeaux to return the car. Do you have to do that? There are some TGVs from Narbonne to Paris taking about 4-1/2 hours. That's obviously longer than the trip from Bordeaux, but you'd avoid a lot of driving. I didn't spend much time in Narbonne, but it seemed a nice place, and Perpignan--while certainly not one of those totally charming towns--is very pleasantly non-touristy. The 13th-century Palace of the Kings of Majorca is interesting as long as you don't demand that your palaces be furnished. There are multiple TGV options from Perpignan to Paris that take 5 to 5-1/2 hours, should Perpignan intrigue you more than Narbonne. However, the driving time from Carcassonne would be considerably longer to Perpignan than to Narbonne.

I've just thought of another nice outdoor place--at least I think it is; I'll probably never get there because it is such a challenge without a car. Cirque de Garnie sounds really neat. It's about a 2-hour detour south of Pau, so it would add a total of 4 hours' driving time as you head east to Carcassonne.

Hey Jules, welcome back to the forums! For what it's worth, I would say that Olite and Carcassonne have a very similar vibe, with Olite's old town being slightly less touristic.

Also, you would not need to go as far as Oviedo in Asturias region, if wanting to see los Picos de Europa, you can just visit the western half which is in Cantabria region, closer to the Basque country. I would recommend Fuente Dé or Potes, or if you can snag a room at Hotel del Oso (in between the two), home to rustic Meson del Oso, the best food I had in northern Spain, including all of the Basque Country and their over priced Pinchos lol!

Although it's not undiscovered, I thought the old stone town of Potes was charming.

I know you are mostly asking about Spain but I cannot recommend 33 Tour in Bordeaux enough. We have toured with Xavier twice. It’s just you and him in his van. We did several small and VERY tough to get into wineries, including several where you can’t even buy the wine (you’d never see that in Napa). The first time we did the “normal” areas. He discovered we liked big wines, and weren’t afraid to try new or younger wines so the second time we went several years later he took us to Graves, which at that time was not big on the radar. We would have lunch at small, family owned very local restaurants. Plus it relieved us from driving for those days and allowed us to taste.

Carcasonne we stayed at a great small BnB, will see if I can find it. The nice thing is it was one of the very few places where you could actually walk to the castle.

Sounds like a good trip.

We drove Northern Spain and for our days in San Seb we parked the car in a garage. Parking was impossible otherwise. But we were there at the end of July so maybe by September it will be better, but if not, the garage was fine for 3 days (not a killer expense). In Bilbao, I chose a hotel with parking. Both places, once we arrived and parked, we didn't use the car again until we left. Between San Seb and Bilbao, on the peninsula, is the Oma Forest. You have to hike to it, but that was a truly unique experience (an art installation in a forest). We also went all around the Picos and yes, Potes and Fuente Dé would be a nice day/overnight. Fuente Dé has the gondola that you can take up into the Picos and do a bit of hiking, if you like. It reminded me of the Yosemite high country - beautiful granite everywhere. Driving from the coast to Rotes can be slow going. We are comfortable mountain drivers but it is a winding two lane road and if you get stuck behind someone less comfortable as we did, it can take more time than you expect.
I did like Carcasonne, but we spent only an afternoon and night there, walking around the walled city, and then walking around town in the morning. It was a fun night, and I didn't feel like I needed more time than an evening/night of walking there. I found the town slightly gritty at first, but walking to a bakery first thing the next morning when the streets were emptier made me appreciate it.

Hi Jules, have you purchased Rick Steves’ Basque Country Spain & France guidebook? I used his suggestions for pinxtos in San Sebastian and would love to do it all over again.
I would skip Arcachon and Soulac sur Mer...how about this route:
Bordeaux to Hondarribia (2h 15m)
Hondarribia to Donostia-San Sebastian (30m)
Donostia-San Sebastian to Bilbao (1h 30m)
Bilbao to Castro Urdiales (45m)
Castro Urdiales to Santillana del Mar (1h 15m)
Santillana del Mar to Cueva de Altamira (15m)
Cueva de Altamira to Oñati (2h 15m)
Oñati to Laguardia (1h 30m)
Laguardia to Santo Domingo de la Calzada (45m)
San Domingo de la Calzada to San Millán de la Cogolla (30m)
San Millán de la Cogolla to Olite (1h 45m)
Olite to Salies-de-Béarn (2h 45m)
Salies-de-Béarn to Pau (1h)
Pau to Saint-Lizier (1h 45m)
Saint-Lizier to Carcassonne (2h 15m)
Carcassonne to Saint-Émilion (3h 45m)
Saint-Émilion to Bordeaux (45m)

I quite liked Arcachon. We found a walking tour through the TI office. It took us through a section of the town that had been developed to be summer retreats for wealthy families. An amazing array of art nouveau-ish mansions. The town is very close to the Dune du Pilat, a enormous sand dune, 111 meters tall, which you can climb. There is a boat ride around basin; and, if I’m remembering correctly, you can get off, hike or picnic, and return on another sailing.
In the Rioja area, we stayed at an inn on a wine estate, just outside LaGuardia. The church is very interesting. As I recall, we had a tour from the TI office there, too.

If you are in the Rioja area I highly recommend you see if your trip can coincide with the Rioja Wine Festival which is usually in the latter part of September. I checked the website and there is nothing posted currently. It's held in Logrono which has an area of about 3 square blocks of side-by-side tapas restaurants. In the evenings during the festival, groups of people from neighbouring areas parade in the streets with their bands singing and playing music - we got the sense it was a rivalry/show-off type of thing with much hilarity from the participants. And then, of course, there are all the wonderful wine and tapas. We stayed for 3 nights and it remains one of the most enjoyable memories of Spain. Logrono is on the Camino route but other than the walkers/pilgrims there were very few tourists. A lovely town!

We also spent 4 nights in Bilbao and loved it. In addition to the Guggenheim, the Bilbao Fine Arts Museum was a highlight for us, as was the food. Pinxtos everywhere - and all of them were terrific. We booked a walking tour with the Greeters organization and ended up spending the entire day with our guide. She truly showed up Bilbao from the perspective of someone who had spent her entire life in the area. If you go you have to read The Basque History of the World by Mark Kurlansky. It is revelatory and a history I had no clue about.

We weren't able to get to San Sebastien because of the film festival. We had a car to get from place to place but once we were in a town, the car remained parked. On the drive from Bilbao to Logrono, we stopped at Guernica. If you've seen the Picasso, it's worth stopping to get a sense of the place and what it must have been like. It's not often you get to connect art to a place in that way.

We are going to be in France 6 weeks from Aug - early Oct on a self-supported bike trip starting in Bordeaux, then through the Medoc, up the Atlantic Coast to La Rochelle, and then head down through Soulac sur Mer to Arcachon and then follow the Canal deux Mers and ending up in Perpignan. We are stopping in Carcasonne as it is on the route but are keeping in mind the divergent opinions we have heard. If you DM me I'm happy to share our hotel list - we literally just finished booking the last of 22 hotels about 20 minutes ago. While some of our stays are more hotel than inns, they are all on the small side as we need places that can accommodate overnight storage for our bikes. Fancy-pants hotels aren't interested in bike-people...

I agree that you shouldn't forget Toulouse. There are also direct TGVs from Toulouse to Paris so you could return the car there.

Carcassonne is awesome. Like most such places, you should really stay within the walls at least one night to see the town without the crowds. There is free (or cheap, I can't remember) parking in the moat just outside the walls.

I love the Dordogne region.

• I loved Carcassonne, but if you don't like crowds, I'd recommend an overnight stay. One of my most memorable moments was getting to the walls at sunrise and getting some photos of the first light hitting the walls.
• Beynac is one of the prettiest places we visited in the Dordogne. It has a castle that Richard the Lionheart stayed. It's also the location for the outdoor scenery in the movie Chocolat.
• Lascaux caves had always been a bucket list item for me and it didn't disappoint.

Hi Jules,

I´ll start with Logroño. Usually San Mateo is as KAS described. While nothing official has been said, it will most likely be pretty calm this year. Next month is San Bernabe, he is the patron of Logroño and this year is the 500th anniversary of the end of the Siege of Logroño by the French. It was to be a huge event, and they have been preparing for a few years. But it now it will be some simple events, they will give out the fish and wine, and do a few other things. Of course the tapa bars should be open, and if it is anything like last weekend it will be full of people.

For La Rioja, I am going to recommend Briones. It is one of "Los Pueblos más bonintos de España". It is on a hill and has nice views of the surrounding area. If you are there in late September it is quite beautiful seeing all the colors in the landscape. Briones is also home to the Vivanco Wine Museum. It is an extraordinary museum with tours of the winery. It is really worth the visit. Also the road from Briones to Laguardia goes through a few little towns like San Vicente and Abalos where you can visit some smaller, nice wineries. For wines Haro is worth a visit. Santo Domingo is interesting, and few years ago it was the 1000th aniversary of the Saint so the cathedral has had some upgrades. It has been a long time since I have visited San Millan, before it was a UNESCO site, but historically it is interesting to see the birthplace of Spanish. Another suggestion would be Santa Maria la Real in Najera. It is a monastery with the tombs of several kings and queens.

To end, I would suggest when heading to Carcassone, you look at visiting Mirepoix and Foix. Mirepoix is about 50km from Carcassone and Foix is 35 from Mirepoix. These would both be in the smaller quaint less crowded category. And Foix had a very nice castle.

Really great suggestions! I will pull out a map and look up some of these locations in a bit. Typically, I spend a lot of time on trip planning and developing an itinerary, but looking at a calendar, I need to really get going. I just booked the air yesterday. I've cancelled multiple trips in the last 1 1/2 years so I've been sitting back a bit. Still, I'm making sure I can cancel most everything, if it comes to that. I'm keeping in mind with COVID, that it's probably wise to remain flexible. I picked Paris for my airport thinking there are a lot of vacation options from there if particular countries/areas become problematic.

Anne, thank you so much for planting the seed of not returning in Bordeaux. I had assumed that rental cars would be a bit of an issue since they certainly are in the U.S. and didn't explore a one way rental much. So looking at train routes/fares and rental cars on Autoeurope, it looks as if I could rent from Bordeaux using Sixt and return in Montpelier. It actually appears that the rental is even a bit cheaper that way, as well as the train. I also looked at Narbonne and Perpignon but car return didn't work and train fares were quite a bit higher, not that is my primary concern.

We've never used Sixt before, but have always been happy working thru Autoeurope. Anyone have Sixt experience? What are people using for train ticket purchase now days? I usually work thru the country specific site, but Oui doesn't seem to like my browsers. I've used Trainline in the past in those situations, but I think they are charging fees now? I did hear the fees were marginal.

Just told my husband that if we had a few more days we could go to Provence. He said he could agree to a 3 month trip and I'd still want a few more days. He's right!

Edited to add--Carlos thanks for the comments on Olite and Carcassone, I will keep that in mind. So far, for me, never too many, medieval cities! Your thoughts on Picos de Europa are helpful. The restaurant seems like a place I need to go!

Anne, I know you have done extensive trip reports. After I get my basics down I will be reviewing those!

Badger, I didn't think to try Toulousse for the return trip. Will look at that now!

Montpellier will mean more driving to drop the car, but it's a nice university town with an atmospheric medieval district.

Anne, thank you so much for planting the seed of not returning in
Bordeaux. I had assumed that rental cars would be a bit of an issue
since they certainly are in the U.S. and didn't explore a one way
rental much.

One way rentals will usually cost a bit extra, but as long as you return it in the same country those fees are often not that bad.

We've never used Sixt before, but have always been happy working thru
Autoeurope. Anyone have Sixt experience?

I have a bit of Sixt experience, and there is nothing to complain about.

What are people using for train ticket purchase now days? I usually
work thru the country specific site, but Oui doesn't seem to like my
browsers.

Always use the website of the company actually operating the train. In your case that would be https://www.oui.sncf which works fine for me. What browsers are you using?

@Badger, I usually use Firefox. I tried Chrome as well. The Man at Seat 61 commented that Oui can be a problem for those of us in the U.S. I did just try again and I got a very unfriendly message, "You have been blocked". Currently I'm just trying to get a feel for train costs in various scenarios so its not terribly important right now. I sure would like to take a train to Bordeaux directly after arriving CDG but I'm seeing that those tickets are very expensive unless purchased in advance, and I'm not comfortable buying a ticket in advance given there can be flight delays/issues.

I have always done one-way rentals in France (and for my trip to Spain). I was anticipating high rental car rates in Europe similar to what is happening in the U.S. with a shortage of vehicles. Indeed, rates are high in Bordeaux, except for Sixt which is quite reasonable.

I've been getting the "You've been blocked" message for weeks if not more than a month. I've tried both Edge and Chrome on my PC. It's beyond annoying, but I have no need to buy French rail tickets, so it's not a serious issue for me.

I don't suppose there's a possibility they're trying to do us a favor by keeping us from buying French rail tickets while most US tourists are blocked from entering France? That seems rather far-fetched.

A few questions/requests so far:

Oui is offering refundable rates up to, I think, a few days before departure, thru August so if I can I'd like to purchase thru Oui. If anyone in the U.S. is able to get past their "block" I'd appreciate it if they could share the browser they were successful with.

Some of the Oui fares from CDG to Bordeaux are so cheap ($30 or so) for advance purchase, I might risk a prepurchase. We'd really like to go directly to Bordeaux upon arrival to France, day of tickets for the high speed train are quite high. We have a direct flight from Minneapolis and we will not check luggage. Comments? Suggestions?

We do like "big wines" but we rarely send wines home so the wines we buy in Europe we tend to drink with picnic lunches. Occasionally we might bring back a bottle or two in checked luggage. We are hoping someone could share a couple smaller wineries we can visit in the Bordeaux area

I am going to post a new inquiry for Spain now that my questions have become quite specific. CARLOS!!! I looked up Meson del Oso, restaurant and hotel. I really have to stay there. I'm racing to get my itinerary done so I can pick the dates.

We canoe a lot when we are home and are thinking we don't "need" to canoe in Dordogne. I'm assuming we can have the same experience and see the same great views from a car? Originally I thought we'd do 5 days in Dordogne. Now I'm thinking 3 will do? I'm trying to give myself time for a brief peek into Picos de Europa

So far for the French Basque area, I'm thinking Bayonne, Ainhoa, Espellette and St. Jean pied de port. Is it easy to drive coastline by Biarritz and St Jean de luz? Should I feel bad if I skip those?

One thing I'd worry a bit about--with respect to early purchase of a bargain rail ticket to Bordeaux--is that your transatlantic flight might be rescheduled or canceled. So much is up in the air now. However, super-early ticket purchase can save so much money it might be worth the risk. You obviously do want to end up in Bordeaux on the day you fly to France; the question is how many hours to allow between your scheduled arrival time and the train departure time from CDG. I have never flown into CDG, so I can't contribute to that decision-making process.

I'm sorry you're being affected by the SNCF website issue, whatever it is. I wonder whether the same deals might not be available from thetrainline.com, just with a one-hopes-modest service fee?

I'm assuming we can have the same experience and see the same great
views from a car?

The views up into the towns from a canoe won't be matched from a car. But with limited time, I wouldn't call it a must-do activity.

Just on canoeing the Dordogne, the views are great. However, the river is shallow and slow moving, so as a sporting experience, it’s not terrific.
You should check out La Tour de Cause in Castelnaud-la-Chapelle, a wonderful b&b with the best breakfast we’ve ever had.

Ann, oh, yes, the flight changes. I don't know why I didn't think of the possibility (haha, likelihood) of flights changing. I traveled twice to Hawaii this last year (my daughter goes to school there) and there were stretches that the flight times/routing changed daily. I think the answer is no, but I'm going to check for other ways besides car to get to Bordeaux. Like in Italy, where there were different train options with differing prices. The last time I went to Spain, we landed in Madrid and immediately went to Sevilla. That was a good plan for a number of reasons including the ability to take a short nap.

In situations like this I sometimes take a look at a map and try to identify a place not to far from my arrival point (and thus with inexpensive last-minute train fares) that would be a nice overnight stop. Of course, unless that nearby town is a stop on the TGV line, you'd have some added travel time the next day when you finally headed for Bordeaux. The fact is that those super-fast TGVs to Bordeaux don't make any intermediate stops at all, so there's no great solution here. And I know your itinerary is already packed.

@acraven, my itinerary is a little packed because someone turned me on to Picos de Europa! ;) I've decided to do a little less in Dordogne (just 3 days) and probably just a brief visit to Carcossone. We feel like we can tie in things we miss in those areas on a future trip we'll take to Provence/Lyon/Beaujolais. Just kidding, BTW. We really value your opinions. Though we certainly have different travel styles, we do have similar interests.