Tentative France/Belgium Itinerary Fall 2023

This sounds like a dream trip- but personally I’d give Bruges more time vs Brussels

It looks lovely, but I'd sketch out a list of what you want to see and do in Belgium before committing so much time to Brussels. Seems like a lot.

Thank you both. Easy to change amount of days in both places. I know we can fill up the time in Brussels just wandering around, but not sure that is best. Will research more and see if it’s worth 7 full days in Brussels. There are a few things I would like to visit and a couple of specialty museums-the Music Instrument Museum and the Train Museum-that my husband would like to see.
I think though that both of us would enjoy more days in Bruges. Hoping the time of year-late October- will not be so busy with cruise ships and bus tours, knowing there will still be some.

While it’s a nice change to see an itinerary that isn’t compiled of 1 or 2 night stays in 10 different cities, I’m not sure about the Belgian part of your itinerary. 7 nights in Bruges and 8 days in Brussels seems like a lot, or dare I say; too much. Bruges is a compact city, with its visitor sights close to each other within walkable distance. There are visitors who “do” Bruges and Ghent on the same day, which is not enough time in my opinion, however 7 nights for Bruges alone is on the other end of the extreme.
The same for Brussels. Unless you plan to take lots of day trips, I don’t see how you can spend 8 nights there. What do you want to see and do there, apart from the 2 museums you mentioned?
I’m also not sure how it being the capital of the EU can help you spend so much time there. You can visit the EU parlement, but that’s it really.
Don’t get me wrong, while I’m Dutch, I live close to the Belgian border and visit Belgium often. To me Brussels just isn’t the nicest city in Belgium. Leuven, Antwerp, Mechelen, Ghent, Bruges, etc are all much nicer cities to stay in IMO.

Have you considered adding the Netherlands to your itinerary? There are direct trains from Brussels to Amsterdam and there are direct flights from Amsterdam to Seattle. You could spend 4 nights in Bruges, 4 nights in Brussels and 5 in Amsterdam.

I agree that Bruges may not be worth seven nights, and the Brussels is not the most attractive city in the area. Your two 7-night stays listed for Belgium don't make clear whether you intend to take advantage of the easy daytrips to and from anywhere between those two cities, as well as from the two cities. (That said, October is not a peak time to visit Ostend and the Belgian coast.)

It is true that there are some special museums in Brussels (like the art museums), but Antwerp also has a large number of good museums. And the world-class KMSKA has just reopened after five or more years of renovations. You risk missing some of the more charming spots in NW Belgium if you don't daytrip to Mechelen, Lier, Turnhout, or places like them. I am NOT talking about more hotel changes, but only daytrips. I should note that the historic centers of places like Bruges and Lier are not right at their train station! Attractions are closer in Mechelen, Leuven, Antwerp. But Antwerp and Brussels call for a lot of walking or comfort with tram or bus lines.

I love Paris, but I don't know if I would book 14-days straight there. But my point is that 7-nights in Paris and 7-nights in Bruges are not comparable in any way. Although I'm 71 myself, I wonder if your expressed desire for long stays means that you both move at a slow pace, and you don't want to hump to the train station every morning anyway? If I were getting up for a slow morning, I'd rather be in Antwerp than in Brussels.

I love that you have 2 weeks for Paris! In 2 of my post-pandemic trips I have had 14 days or a few more in Paris. One trip I divided time with 3 nights in Colmar but the other was 2 full weeks there. I still did not get to everything on my list! There are several of the California gals here on the forum who routinely spend a month in Paris so there is a LOT to do.

I understand your goal but for Brussels and Bruges, however, I'd probably divide those nights into 3 stops and stay an equal amount of time in Ghent as well. I really like staying in Bruges but 7 nights is a lot. Long ago and far away my Dad was posted to Brussels so I've stayed there for a couple of weeks at a time but we were also doing family stuff...not sure I'd enjoy being in Brussels that long otherwise.

I don't know if you have an interest in WWII history but the one thing I've wanted to do from Bruges and haven't gotten to is to visit the Atlantik wall segments near Oostende. I know you are not down to detail level of planning but it was on my mind and now it can be on yours, haha!

And yes, I've done the Amsterdam ->Seattle flight on Delta and it's great. Doing it again next April outbound as well.

Ghent deserves time.

Yes! Wonderful suggestions and replies. Easy enough to shorten Bruges and possibly move away from staying in Brussels. Will be looking at all suggestions given.

Dutch_traveler
Per the Netherlands: I’ve spent many days and nights in Amsterdam and the surrounding area-love it when Floriade is happening-plus Den Helder, twice I liked it so much, Zwolle, the Kroller-Muller Museum and the Park de Hoge Veluwe to ride a bike through astonishing territory. And then Haarlem, and 3-4 tourist bus trips to Delft, Den Haag, Rotterdam and the like. As for SEA-AMS-SEA, I’m very familiar with both the flight and the convenience having been on it many, many times. I think the Netherlands is off the time line for this trip unless there is a southern city/town that piques my interest. Uh-oh! Husband just expressed interest. Hmmm….

Day trips and hoofing it to the train station-definitely. Conundrum-not really having enough time while at the destination. Even though the mantra of ‘we can come back’ is supposed to be workable, it is unlikely to be true for us in the smaller destinations as there is yet another one to visit. Although staying elsewhere and daytripping to Brussels could certainly work.
As an aside to pacing speed-I spent quite a bit of time (too much probably) on this last 72 day trip to Italy muttering about how people needed to move along, move along-quit stopping in the middle of the pathway to gawk and step aside to do so. I NEVER said anything aloud and we scusi (ed) our way through, so we could move at our pace, which is a bit quicker than most tourists I admit. Even in group tours, I often found myself at the front end because of moving faster than others. No slouches in the pace category, but thank you Tim for the reminder to keep it going which could play into how long we stay in some places.

Paris. Another conundrum. I’ve never been and my husband was there in the 70’s for a short visit. I want to do the visit justice but that justice is sure a personal decision. Are 10 nights enough, are 14 too many? Although we will go to the Louvre (not for long) and see other museums, our interests lie more in observing the differences in the arrondissement, eating and drinking wine and experiencing the street cafe culture. I love London Walks and see there is a Paris Walks also so we will definitely be participating in their offerings.

Off to look at Ghent and Antwerp first, then the others. Thank you!
Looking forward to more input.

Conundrum-not really having enough time while at the destination.

I understand what you are saying, and it's true that Bruges, Ghent and Leuven are very rich destinations. But although I am an encyclopedic tourist myself, I think it is false to say that you cannot do them justice on a daytrip. (Let's set aside the mantra about "Chakra after the tour busses leave". I'm simply talking about attractions in a day!)

I've made two daytrips to Bruges from Antwerp, three daytrips to Ghent, and three or four daytrips to Brussels from Antwerp, as well as one business stay in Brussels. (Why? Let's just say eight or ten long trips to Antwerp.) It is not a waste to return to the medieval centers of these bustling modern cities. But it's quite possible to say you "saw them" after just a 10AM-5PM day. Opinion.

I've even done Lier and Turnhout in one day, but I knew exactly what I was doing in Turnhout because I had been there before. And they're on the same train line. I'll add that one of Ghent's plusses is that the Mystic Lamb is a seven-day attraction, although some retail is closed on Monday, decreasing the value of the visit.

Hello,
I'm planning a long trip for summer 2024 that includes 8 nights in Paris, as well as 15 total days in Belgium (out of 70 days total).

I think you have a great plan, and don't think those amount of days are a problem at all. For Belgium, we have 8 nights in Bruges and 7 nights in Leuven (we like smaller cities, and plan to take the train into Brussels as required). We love slow travel and are looking forward to really getting to know a place. I definitely realize you can see Bruges on a day trip, but there are no shortage of day trips and we like not having to constantly move. From Bruges, for instance, we'll be spending time in Ghent, Ypres and the World War 1 sites, Ostend and the coast, bike riding to Damme, etc.

From Leuven I have a few day trips planned to Dinant and the Wallonia area, as well as maybe Antwerp.

And 2 weeks in Paris sounds great. My 8 nights is probably ok, but if we weren't trying to get to more places, there are no shortage of ways to spend time there.

I'm also travelling with kids though (8 and 12), and we're going to try to not do too many things per day, so take my opinion for what it's worth. Just wanted to let you know though that you timelines in Belgium don't sound like too much at all.
Best of luck

14 nights is not too much for Paris! 10 is fine and both are better than 3 or 4 that many first timers do. You can also do day trips from there, including the often recommended Chartres and Giverny.

I don't think I saw what kind of accommodation you were going for? If it's hotel, I would change in the middle of your Paris nights to a different neighborhood so you can have a different feel. If it's an apartment, I probably would not just because of the cleaning fee, etc.

Paris Walks is wonderful! You can also watch some of the online videos from Corey Frye - A French Frye in Paris (who also does group walks) and France with Vero (a Rick Steves guide who lives in Tours) and develop your own walks.

https://www.youtube.com/@afrenchfryeinparis

https://www.youtube.com/@francewithvero

I did my own last spring looking for Roman ruins in Paris based on one of Corey's walks as well as some research on my own. It was quite fun, lol.

I don't know if you've been to the Alsace region of France. But, if not, I might suggest robbing 2 nights from Bruges and 3 nights from Brussels and spend those 5 nights in either Strasbourg or Colmar and see that area.

Accommodations on our trip.
Our common go to is airbnb. Second, we use booking.com. Recently, I’ve added vrbo to the mix. If our stays are 3-4 nights, I definitely look at hotels too, but in general, find them more expensive for the longer stays especially since we do like to have a washing machine for those.
France and Belgium-more expensive overall than Italy. Rats! Not unexpected.
Research this time seems a bit more complicated but I haven’t yet figured out if it’s really because nothing is available or if the info hasn’t been released because it’s too far out. Some of both probably.

We will firm up the air travel first and soon as fares are quite reasonable again. I don’t see change for dates or the in to (Toulouse) and out of (Brussels).

Alsace.
Briefly, maybe years ago. Like the idea and love the wine!

SJS-check out the podcast and website Join Us In France. Annie lives in Toulouse and has lots of information for that area and all of France.

I can recommend two apartment services I have used in Paris. Cobblestone Paris, https://cobblestoneparis.com, who has been in Ricks Paris Book for awhile (Wife & Husband owned). Apartments du Louvre, https://www.apartmentsdulouvre.com. Apartments du Louvre have two buildings, small elevator & A/C in their units (Family owned). Others may list other rental agencies in the city as well.

Sounds like a great trip, I'm looking forward to a 2+ month trip to Europe when I retire in 9 1/2 years. Currently I can only do 8 - 15 night stays.

Enjoy.

diveloonie-thanks will do.

Brushtim-will definitely check those. Think Paris is really going to challenge our budget, whatever our budget might be by next year.

Checked those apartments! Wow! If only we could be in that price range. I need a place that I won’t feel guilty leaving for the day! I’ll keep it bookmarked as we never know.

Update:
Currently removing Brussels and putting Mechelen in. It looks and sounds like it would be okay for 7-8 nights and getting to Brussels airport is on a nonstop IC train. Antwerp an easy day trip from there and Brussels if we feel the need.

Turnhout means through Antwerp from Mechelen, so not a day well spent.

Looking at taking the tram from Oostende to De Panne as a day trip from Bruges to look at the Beaufort Sculpture Park of permanent art that has been installed over the past few years from 2003.

Ghent an easy day trip from Bruges.

“ Turnhout means through Antwerp from Mechelen, so not a day well spent.”
I’m sorry, but I’m puzzled by this remark. Turnhout is a lovely city. How can you state it’s not a day well spend, because you incorrectly think you will need to go thru Antwerp to get there? There is a direct train from Mechelen to Turnhout that gets you there in only 49 minutes and doesn’t go via Antwerp.
I can’t help but think, you’re going about this backwards by first choosing your base. Why not read up on Belgium and decide what you want to see and do and then decide which bases suits your wishes best?
I’m not sure what train planner told you the incorrect information about having to go thru Antwerp in order to get from Mechelen to Turnhout, but when you start planning I suggest you to use the official train planner of the Belgian railway company which can be found at their website https://www.belgiantrain.be/en

With regards to the Netherlands. Based on what you wrote, with the exception of Kroller-Moller, you only visited the densely populated area in the western part of our country. There is much more to the Netherlands than just Holland. There are beautiful historical cities in other parts of our country too. For instance Breda, ‘s Hertogenbosch, Maastricht etc in the south. Groningen, Leeuwarden etc in the north. And the Hansa cities Zwolle, Deventer, Kampen, Zutphen etc in the east. All very much worth a visit/stay.

I may have been unclear in this thread, but I consider Antwerp to be the best base for this area. Mechelen is historic and picturesque, and I wouldn't mind waking up there multiple days. But there are 7 days of things to do in Antwerp without leaving the immediate metropolitan area (not saying everyone needs to allocate 7 days to Antwerp, only comparing it to Mechelen, which does not have 7 days of things to do.)

I'm simply pointing out that you could take it easy if you wake up in Antwerp tired one day, or you could have coffee in a different place every morning in Antwerp, and walk by 20 restaurants before choosing at night. (Pre-pandemic observation. I don't know how much business has failed in the last 3 years.)

To me it's a bit to do a south of France / Belgium trip. Why not consider seeing some of "Le Nord" in France and checking out Lille, Arras in France and Tournai in Belgium?

Getting blasted a bit! It’s okay. Keeps me thinking.

This is still a work in progress.
We don’t need to have fully chosen our stay places until early next year. I say that as some places I’ve chosen appear to have limited accommodations in a price range that is affordable for us, meanwhile knowing that this trip will be more expensive. That means we may change a couple of destinations. In regards to that, I’ve upped our nightly price quite a bit and am still feeling like we aren’t seeing as many choices (hotels, airbnbs, b and b’s, vrbo, etc.) as I would like. Yes, I will go with whatever we need to do to get the type of accommodation we like within reason for us. That is solely a personal budget decision.

To answer to south of France to north: It covers ground but we have 7 weeks. This trips requests were wine country of Bordeaux and the D-Day exploration. I then get out the paper maps and the huge France Michelin road atlas to start to plug in what this will look like. From those two requests, I then look at other possible destinations that seem to fit into the original asks. Paris is my ask for this trip. So now we are north.
Quite honestly, I am also looking at where to depart from so we aren’t having to do a huge back track. I do limit us to a particular airline due to a mileage plan, so that affects those choices. For this trip Brussels has come out on top as the departure point as we will be north. Paris is an absolute NO!
So-where to go between Paris and Brussels? Bruges!!! Neither of us have been there, so why not go join the hordes of tourists there too? Now, with your suggestions, I’m trying to get a good grip on where to stay while in Belgium and I’ve even been looking at the southern Flemish region in the Netherlands. I changed to Mechelen simply to negate Brussels, but that doesn’t mean it’s our final choice. I have not ruled out Antwerp, Ghent or any number of other potential sites.

I have many more hours of sitting on my butt doing research to see where and why. That’s why when each of you come back around with a thought/suggestion, I write it down and start looking at the possibility. There are so many!

Mechelen to Turnhout- I’m not sure what I plugged the info into but thought I had used sncb.com for Belgian train schedules. It sure didn’t come up with anything other than through Antwerp. As the site was still posting normal operations even with the current strike, I felt I was getting good enough information using a departure date in February. I will try again as I know sites can reveal far different info between visits.

Enough for this post. Keep it coming! Thanks.

And the Netherlands. I agree about densely populated western cities, other than Zwolle which I did visit. My time there was often only 24 hours let alone any real time for travel. I couldn’t bounce off to anything too far flung as I had return to Amsterdam time requirements.
And this trip, other than possibly some time in southern Netherlands, we won’t be venturing to the east or far north now either. But, at least I’m looking…….

“ Mechelen to Turnhout- I’m not sure what I plugged the info into but thought I had used sncb.com for Belgian train schedules.”
That is not the website of the Belgian railway company. www.sncb.BE (not .com) does exist, but it’s only a referral website that takes you to the website I gave you.

“ and I’ve even been looking at the southern Flemish region in the Netherlands.”
As much as I love this region, where the majority of my family lives, it’s not a convenient base at all. There are no trains at all and other forms of public transport (busses) are scarce. Staying in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen is only an option if you’re going to rent a car.

Dutch_traveler
I did have the correct website-the one you gave me-I think I didn’t read it correctly or thoroughly enough to see that there are the good connections for Mechelen-Turnhout.
Was very interested in Hulst until I saw that it is a bus ride with 28+ stops (?) to get there from Sint-Niklaas after a train there.
And yes, finding it to not be so accessible without a car which we won’t have by then.
Thanks.