Regarding illegal rentals Beware The noose is gradually tightening

This is good news. Will make it easy to find the legal ones.

There are always tourists who - when the co-propriete has had enough - change the code.

So, there have to be calls made to managers or property owners, if the tourists have made the proper SIM card transactions.
And the lost waiting time with the cafes...

First and foremost this idea they can fine the Sites is laughable. Second this entire effort is essentially unenforceable in a city the size of Paris with tens of thousands of short term rentals. 65 Thousand according to the article for AirBnb alone.

And if you think about it even if they do try to Fine the sites AirBnb will certainly push back. There will be court cases, data is held in other countries and this is not a simple or fast legal process to embark upon. You are probably looking at years as opposed to months to adjudicate.

Second as has been written before the AirBnb people have pointed out to the Paris officials that Aibnb is breaking no law. The city must pursue the owners of the apartments. The sheer fact that they are trying to attack the Web Platforms means they are admitting they can't enforce this regulation effectively in the only place it really can be enforced and that is with the individual owners of the apartments.

A bit of critical thinking I believe would lead one to the conclusion that they have little risk of having their AirBnb vacation in Paris interrupted by this effort.

The essential problem here is that there is a huge market that the French authorities cannot get their arms around because they are so far behind the curve on this one. Their response is to try to kill the market...that will fail.

I certainly hope that the authorities do strongly restrict the vacation rentals. Yes, that will raise costs for travelers like myself and wife. However, travel is a moral act. You must do it in a way which does not damage the location.

I've been thinking of purchasing an apartment in some European city to stay in some and rent out other times. I'm glad I held off - the situation is changing. AirBnB has changed the environment.

Have to agree with aarthur that fining Airbnb is not going to work.
Paris has to go over those listing the ad not the listing website.

I totally agree with Paul’s post above. Travel so as to not damage the location or the lives of the local residents. Uber and AirBnB are never considered when
I travel. Huff and puff as you like. There are other ways to travel economically and we have been doing so for decades.

Airbnb has already been held responsible in one Parisian court where a landlord sued the tenant and Airbnb and won. Airbnb was liable for allowing the listing.

Here's the link from a previous discussion.

Uber and Airbnb are never considered when I travel either. I only consider them as options to be rejected.

Sorry, but AirB&B is not just "a platform." It can and should be liable when renting places that do not conform to local regulations as short term rentals. It is perfectly fine for a city to set regulations as they see fit. If local citizens do not like it, they can work to change their laws and lawmakers. So if Paris decides that they need short term rentals to do A, B, and C, and that they will issue a license number so that potential renters can verify their compliance, then AirB&B needs to follow that law.

If a hotel chain, say, Marriott, has hotels all over the world, they still need to comply with local regs. They cannot plead ignorance.

Rental platforms can require a license number with a listing. No number, no listing.

I wish we had a like function on this forum. Regardless, anything that makes it easier to distinguish legal from illegal apartments is good news to those of us who prefer apartments.

AirBnB began restricting listings to 120 days last year in Paris and then later, added a field for the registration number in the listing. The capability to de-list listings without a number is probably there, but they have been likely pushing back against getting too much in the enforcement loop. But as they enter into luxury listings and integration of hotel listings, and continue to emerge from a series of battles with cities in the US, they are choosing increasingly to work with the local authorities. This latest bill probably is probably to add enforcement strength behind the latest push.

The rental apartment market is well-established in many locations, and some cities with a strong tourist trade and less pressure on the rental stock are more welcoming and accommodating, while meeting the needs of the full-time residents. In Nice, there is a streamlined process in place that at the same times includes regulations and certain standards and limitations. There is a lack of hotel stock and not a severe housing crisis, and while there are certainly opponents, there is also a clear economic benefit. I think it's no different than requiring a building contractor to put a license number in a classified ad when soliciting work. The cities should also step up and allow for streamlined verification of these license numbers. .

For those that think that your choice of AirBnb or Uber are hurting the French in some way please remember it is THE FRENCH who are the ones behind the wheels of the Ubers and the owners of the apartments and the ones benefiting from your stay and putting that money you pay into the French economy. (and thus not going to some big corporate entity that will keep a share)

In my view us visitors should let this play out and let the FRENCH settle it and not take sides one way or the other. It is their issue to resolve.

Too often there is this sort of arrogant notion by some travelers that they know best what is good for the folks in a country they are merely visiting. If a guy in Paris wants to rent me his apartment that's fine with me. Why try to dissuade others from doing so? And really the law and order argument falls flat here. This is essentially a ZONING issue in Paris.

How would you feel if French tourists were trying to interfere with your towns zoning fights over Uber or AirBnb? You wouldn't. And from my perspective that is exactly what some are doing here. It's not our business. I am not breaking the law and neither is AirBnb.

And please keep this in mind. Do not underestimate the Hotel industry's role in this issue. And as more and more small and medium hotels use AirBnb and other similar platforms this issue will fade away. But right now there is too much money on the table and the big Hoteliers want it.

It's a win win situation. Let the locals work out the logistics of zoning their own city.

This is interesting and a lot of interesting points. I'm eager to see where Americans and other tourists are trying to influence French laws. Opinions are expressed, but I'm unaware of any Americans lobbying for these laws.

Some French people are benefiting from apartment rentals but hotel occupancy has dropped 20% at the small hotels that cater to the same tourists. The five-star hotels are going strong, but the lower level and small hotels are hurting. It's robbing Peter to give to Paul. Also, some apartments for rent are not French-owned, so it's not sure the money is staying within the economy. Certainly, the Airbnb profits aren't if they are incorporated in Ireland, as many US cyber businesses are, in order to avoid French taxes. I haven't checked, so I don't know where it is incorporated within the EU. One of the problems leading to this crack down was the tax money that wasn't being paid by the apartment owners on their profits renting or sub-letting their apartments.

With Uber and gig-economy drivers, it's the same situation, except the drivers do pay taxes. Cab runs are down, so again, one is being robbed to give a crumb to another. Again, if Uber isn't incorporated in France, where does Uber pay its taxes?
When I travel, I am concerned about contributing to exploitation. The question is "What is exploitation?"

"When I travel, I am concerned about contributing to exploitation. The question is "What is exploitation?"

Good question Bets. I've never been interested in Air B&B's - I prefer the security of having somebody at a desk downstairs to tend to my needs and address problems with my accommodations.

On the other hand, cab companies have done nothing, ever, to earn my loyalty, let alone my business. I gladly use Uber, Lyft, etc. whenever possible.

The idea that someone is "Robbing" someone else through their action of putting their apartment up for rent on a short term basis Is a bit extreme. It is not a zero sum game or all one sided. No one is being robbed. There is room in the marketplace of tourism for all of it.

This is simply people acting in their own best interests. Small hotel owners are more than welcome to utilize AirBnb and the other sites to fill rooms. And many are. Very successfully. Those that choose not to are making their choice. But they have the choice to do so and compete in the same marketplace. But choosing not to and then complaining that AirBnb is unfair seems like sour grapes to me.

As travelers we have the choice of where to stay. Should we try to discourage others from staying where they wish based on our own political-socio view of the world? Who are we to make that assumption?

New trends in travel come along with varying degrees of frequency. At one time Cruising as we know it today did not exist. And what did Hoteliers think of that? RS redefined European travel for many and one could argue using the logic of some that he "Robbed" the old traditional huge tour companies of their business. But the market changed. People wanted something different than what was being offered. That is simply what is happening with AirBnb and Uber etc. It is a different world. The market and people's wants and needs are changing.

In the meantime is it really up to the individual traveler to try to be a global policeman and "enforce" ones view of what is right for some 65,000 apartment owners of another city? Is it right for me to try to take income from some unknown French woman/man by trying to convince others to not use their service?

Does it matter who owns the apartment? If they are French or Tunisian or Vietnamese or even an American expat. Do you REALLY know who owns the hotel you just booked? What difference does it make? In reality it makes no difference.

Now everybody just pack, grab your passport and enjoy your trip. Travel can be a political act as RS says but this seems to be missing the point.

This topic will be discussed and discussed.

Hotels, yes, were very slow to react to changes in travel, in part contributing to the rise of AirBnB type platforms. But the loss of "regular" housing to the short term market is only part of a huge change in housing needs. So many variables are converging at one time putting all sorts of pressure on housing in certain cities. Cities, especially like Paris, can’t build up. Think of Corbusier’s plans to bulldoze the Marais and build high rises. The best return on investment in the lower interest rate era is real estate. It can be left empty and draw a return greater than money in a bond fund. Youngsters like city life where there’s stuff to do. Corporations are having to relocate to cities because that’s where the brains are.

Paris is investing heavily in infrastructure. Paris is full of construction with extending the metro lines, changing streets to accommodate changing needs for bus routes, extending the tram line in a belt to completely surround the city, developing new housing in areas formerly occupied by RR yards and tracks such as in Batignolles, the 19th at Boulevards Ney and McDonald, the 13th, around the Bibliotheque Mitterrand, Pantin and numerous other areas tourists don’t see. Huge attempts are being made to make the banlieus a part of the city. (a tram trip about the periphery of Paris would be eye opening to visitors)

Paris needs money for this and many individuals and companies are escaping paying the taxes on income they earn here. So a tightening up is necessary. Banks and other corporate investors own great swaths of Paris real estate which is held empty. The city is trying to go after them. Other reasons for vacant housing are laws that favor tenants making it possible for a small investor to loose his shirt in his purchase of an apartment for rental so he holds it empty for appreciation only. The city is trying to figure out ways to offer a form of insurance to small property owners to city insure them against bad tenants. In the land of the pied a terre, the city is trying to figure out ways to almost force second home owners to sell their property. One is by increasing property taxes in big jumps.

In Paris, the demographic change has been nothing less than phenomenal in the outer arrondissements (where I live) where housing is still affordable. However, most tourists, who are here for only a couple of days, (the average tourist stay is 2.4 days) don’t see that. Almost two versions of Paris are being created. The one where stuff is happening and the sanitized museum one containing the “must sees.” A few of us who actually live here try to get visitors out to see the action and energy in Live Paris with little success.

All of your comments are geared to only a small part of the Paris housing market. In a metropolitan population of about 10 million, 100,000 housing units are nothing but they are important in the overall housing picture in a city that is seeing huge changes.

You are all thoughtful people. These from the Atlantic (The link is below)
"The company has shifted the burden of rising prices in crowded downtown areas from travelers to residents—pushing down prices for hotel rooms, while raising rents for city dwellers. Was that Airbnb’s intent? Almost certainly not. But that is the outcome, anyway, and it is a meaningful—even, yes, disruptive—one."
and;
"Airbnb was supposed to challenge hotels by letting tourists pay renters. But its platform is unwittingly producing a subsidy of tourists, paid for by nonparticipating urban dwellers, who bear the cost of higher rental prices."

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/02/airbnb-hotels-disruption/553556

While the OP makes some good points I would just ask everyone to consider these numbers:

According to the article cited in this thread AirBnb has 65,000 rentals in the city. Now if those rentals have just a 60% occupancy rate which by the way is VERY conservative, that represents 39,000 ROOM NIGHTS. And that is just for ONE NIGHT. Now if you extrapolate that occupancy rate over the 3 summer months of June July and August lets say 90 days that represents 3,510,000 Room nights!

At the average cost of a Paris hotel room at €100 per night this adds up to Three Hundred Fifty One Million Euros. LOST by Traditional Hotels.

Now who do you think is REALLY pushing this change?

As for holding AirBnb legally responsible for these ads and rentals, that would be like holding newspapers or websites liable for people advertising and selling cars without registrations.

AirBnB is heavily investing in China, so we won't probably be bothered in Paris anymore.

As to revenue lost by hotels because of AirBnB, it's very hard to determine. We have friends who have an AirBnB here, and during one discussion I asked them where they thought all these people used to stay, or where they would stay if there was no AirBnB. They said that many of those are people who probably wouldn't visit if they had to pay $200-300/night for a room. Now, that kind of reasoning probably wouldn't apply to a place like Paris, where visitors will come because it's Paris, and they'll manage to find a place to stay no matter what. I guess we'll see what happens now that thousands of apartments will probably be taken off the tourist rental market as a result of the crackdown.
Also, it's clear that hotels are concerned about lost business. In our city, and the one across the river, the issue has been the subject of a lot of controversy recently, and both cities have adopted new rules restricting short term rentals. In both cities the most vocal opposition came from people concerned about the character of neighborhoods and the loss of long term rentals. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the hotel lobby was acting behind the scenes.

This is a hard issue for me. On the one hand, if someone owns an apartment and wants to make money by renting it out, why should he/she not be allowed to? We met the owners of an apartment we rented about ten years ago and they were hard working people trying to supplement their income. Good for them. On the other hand, if I was living in an apartment and everyone else in my building started renting their apartment instead of living in it, I would hate that. Imagine if all your neighbors were tourists.

I'm still not sure what the right answer is, but I do know that I am not comfortable breaking laws in the country I am visiting. I will no longer rent an apartment in Paris unless I can be sure it is legal.

There's a reason why condominiums typically have very restrictive rules on allowable rental periods. Who wants to live in an allegedly secure building with strangers showing up for a few days at a time? I believe my own building requires at least a one-year lease. A little over a year ago someone bought an apartment and immediately started renting it out on Airbnb. We shut him down fast.

In a place like Paris, my guess is that a sharp reduction in rental apartments will have a variety of effects:

• Some visitors considering quick getaways via budget airlines and cheap apartments may not visit at all. I wonder whether there will ultimately be a reduction in the number of flights due to reduced demand.
• Some travelers looking for budget lodging options will decide they can make do with very small hotel rooms rather than the hoped-for more spacious apartments. The cost of those budget hotels may increase due to increased demand.
• Some travelers will pay substantially more for each night of lodging, opting for upmarket hotels that offer space closer to what they would have found in apartments.

The idea that somehow the Traveler is breaking the law of the country they are visiting by renting an unregistered AirBnb is just simply not true. You are breaking no law. This is a misconception.

It is allegedly the apartment owner who has not complied with a city regulation by not registering his apartment that is in violation of the city regulation.

Now Hotels routinely break many city regulations that the tourist never knows about. Rules on food cleanliness, Passport information collection, taking cash only and under reporting income to avoid taxes and the list could go on...

The point is you never let these issues keep you from booking that hotel. You never feel YOU are breaking the law because the hotel owner has run afoul of some city/provincial/federal regulation... So WHY in this case?

And just to clarify and make the record clear I have Absolutely NO affiliation with AirBnb whatsoever.

Okay, I see your point, aarthur. I still feel like I would be aiding and abetting someone who is breaking the law. And I would also worry that my rental could be cancelled at the last minute if the owner got caught, which is an entirely different issue.

"Now Hotels routinely break many city regulations that the tourist never knows about. Rules on food cleanliness, Passport information collection, taking cash only and under reporting income to avoid taxes and the list could go on... The point is you never let these issues keep you from booking that hotel. You never feel YOU are breaking the law because the hotel owner has run afoul of some city/provincial/federal regulation... So WHY in this case?"

Actually, I would not book with a hotel whose owner has run afoul of city/provincial/federal regulations on food cleanliness and a host of other issues but I would not feel like I was breaking the law if I did choose such a hotel. I agree though that the laws on short term rentals are more like zoning laws or housing codes. I have said before on this forum that a tourist is not breaking the law by renting an unregistered apartment. The risk I see is that there may be an enforcement action against the owner between the time of booking and the time of the visit resulting in a possible scramble to find new accommodations. For some either because of their risk profile, the timing of their visit, the size of their party, the need for a kitchen, their budget, or some other reason, that risk is something they will not take.

Re: let the French settle it...." Very true. As a visitor I am making my choice known and taking sides by rejecting that Airbnb option, ie boycott it. Visitors to Paris can do likewise or choose the Airbnb option. It is up to the individual visitor regardless of the facts, pros and cons,

To Fred, I admire your willingness to stand up for what you think is right but if you are going to "Boycott" something be sure you are hurting the right party. By Boycotting the individual, wage earning, middle class AirBnb owner are you hurting the right party? I think not. Who you ARE HELPING, to their everlasting glee, are the large and medium hotel chains who stand to lose the over 100 million Euros I pointed out in my post above.

Your boycott will simply make the large corporate entities stronger, raise prices, and squeeze out the little guy trying to make a Franc/Euro on the side.

How is that justice?

"By Boycotting the individual, wage earning, middle class AirBnb owner are you hurting the right party? I think not. Who you ARE HELPING, to their everlasting glee, are the large and medium hotel chains who stand to lose the over 100 million Euros I pointed out in my post above."
That assumes that the AirBnB owner is actually a wage earning middle class person. That is not always the case.

Is justice suppose to be under consideration here?

In France and elsewhere in Europe I mainly patronize the 2 star small hotel or Pension...no American chains, sometimes a 3 star hotel not belonging to a chain either. The tourist/visitor has the option of choosing, be it an university dorm, BnB, hostel, Airbnb, 5 star hotel, Pension, whatever.

Most of the smaller hotels do not have websites.
I would never stay in a hotel which had the "rooms for cash, and other infractions you noted, such as eating in your room."

The property owner has the right to 120 days out of the year to rent legally. It is tied to his financial information, and cannot be faked. The tenant, however, may not sub-let unless it is in writing. I'd be wary of the tenant, who has much to gain...
Just look for the registration number.

To JHK...I don't see the wealthy as being interested in renting out their small (?) apartments in droves. But I am sure you are correct there may be a few.

My one distilled point on this entire discussion is this: I just feel it's inappropriate (especially here on this forum) to try to encourage other travellers to buy in to one's personal view of whether to stay in an entire class of accommodation and thus affect many people (in this case the AirBnb owners) who do not have a voice here to defend their actions and give their perspectives.

I think on this issue there has been far too much fear mongering on this site about the regulation numbers and the risks of staying at an AirBnb has been exaggerated beyond the logical. I think this does a disservice to other travelers, the apartment owners and AirBnb and other platforms like them. It seems that some have a political axe to grind with AirBnb and use every chance AirBnb comes up here to sharpen that blade.

Thanks to the OP and all the others who have voiced their opinions for an interesting discussion.

can somebody please throw a bucket of water?

I'm filling the bucket now Nigel.......... :)

The myth that Parisien apartments are large is ridiculous.

Hotels have great beds - I wouldn't want to sleep in anybody else's bed.

Amen, aarthurperry, and it's always the same people beating the drum.

While on vacation, I always use hotels. But when I'm in France for a long period of time (for work) I generally look for an airbnb. Especially outside of Paris. This summer I'm staying a month in Rouen in an airbnb. I was careful in my choosing and I am thrilled that I will have the luxury of a washing machine.

I totally agree with Paul’s post above. Travel so as to not damage the location or the lives of the local residents.

I find this comment a little rich coming from a big defender of cruise ships.

The last criteria I would consider in determining whether too stay in a hotel or apartment/house is the age of the bed or who has slept in it. After all, a hotel bed has probably had far more use by more people than any home's bed.
Over the years when travelling in France, we have mostly stayed in houses rented by the week, usually through Gites de France. We try to avoid hotels, except when we have odd days at the beginning or the end, and even then will usually choose a chambre d'hote over a hotel. On our upcoming trip, besides a week in a house and 5 days at a friend's house, we are using AirBnB, twice, for the first time in France. In one case it's because the hotel we wanted to stay at is closed for vacation, and there aren't any other hotels in the village. In the other case, there isn't much available in the area. If I was staying in Paris (or some other cities that require registration), I would not rent an apartment that didn't list a registration number.

That would me, I think. Good point, Tom. I will never, ever, take another cruise.

@ aarthurperry, Maybe I am blinded by my own personal experience but I know several people who rent their apartments or used to rent their apartments in Paris and none of them were what I would call middle class people making some extra money. Two are very wealthy Americans who rent their apartments on AirBnb through a management company although one sold her place last month and the other says she will continue until she gets caught because she does not like her place to stay empty all the time and if caught she will sell the apartment. Another owns several apartments in Paris that he has acquired over the years to use as vacation rentals. I have a neighbor in Paris who owns a second apartment in the building next door that he rents on AIrBnb using his wife's name as the owner and permanent resident but he told me last week that they will either sell that apartment or rent it long-term in 2019 because of the 120-day restriction. They got the registration number and plan to rent for more than 120 days this year and then make a decision later this year on what to do.
I own an apartment in Paris and I do not rent it out at all because I am risk averse. I can't risk the fine for doing short term rentals and there is no way that I would ever enter into a regular, long-term in Paris lease because the applicable laws are the most anti-landlord that this former New Yorker has ever seen. I would love to see Paris have a short-term rental law that allows me to rent my apartment to short-term rentals but it does not and so be it for me.

I love the security of a hotel reservation. That said, hotels in major/popular metropolitan areas are really expensive for a family of four. And a lot of hotels in European and Japanese cities can only fit 2 people. If you want to be close to the action you're often looking at $300 x 2 rooms a night.

I routinely have been able to find nice 1-2 bdrm AirBnB airpartments in lovely locations with space for my family to spread out. Plus I only book apartments with full kitchens, washing machines, good internet, etc. All this for a fraction of the price of a hotel.

Dumb question about registration number. Can someone just make one up? Then list it on Air B N B, or Homeaway? I am targeting those with a number, but what stops anyone from making one up?

Is this a country wide thing? I am also staying in Avignon, should I have looked for a number here?

I routinely have been able to find nice 1-2 bdrm AirBnB airpartments in lovely locations with space for my family to spread out.

I think you've hit upon why AirBnB has been so successful. In my city, I've been told that during the Summer, the rates at downtown hotels are $300/night and up. How many people can readily afford that? So instead people can find AirBnB apartments for $100-150.

"' Is this a country wide thing? I a m also staying in Avignon, should I have looked for a number here?"

According to the below:

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/New-housing-law-due-to-go-ahead

It (rental law) will apply in large cities (more than 200,000 residents) plus the departments round Paris and in around 28 zones tendues (towns with more than 50,000 residents where housing is in short supply).
However, mayors in these 28 towns must decide to apply the new law and it is thought the vast majority will not do so.

It is impossible for the property owner to fake a number. It is tied to his financial information, and it only fits the 13-digit spaces.

If the visitor plans to travel soon, it will be practically impossible for him/her to find a 2 bedroom apartment with real beds and 2 bedrooms.

As JHK said, the issue with AirBNB is that what was initially presented as a way for ordinary joes to rent out their spare rooms has turned into a way for buy-to-let landlords to get into the vacation rental business on a big scale, and evade the regulations that would normally protect their customers and neighbours, and require them to make some kind of contribution to wider society by paying tax.

Phillip's statement is right on point. I wonder what AirBnB's expectations were when they started. Was part of their business model the expectation that large-scale absentee owners would eventually make up a large part of their business?

The AirBnB business model was supposed to be that when an owner shares space with someone and pays them money. The average stay is about 2 days. You normally see your host.
Now, most people sleep on other friend's couches when guests come to call - and pays them money. The average stay is about 2 days. You don't normally see your host, however.
You still have to pay the "taxe de sejour".

AirBnb is currently courting the Asian continents, big-time, as well as the US.