Handicap Discrimination Bus Services in France and Switzerland by FlixBus

Where did you see 86 euros for the train? SBB.ch offers tickets on the direct train from Zurich to Mulhouse for 50 CHF if you buy 2+ months in advance. Full price is 72 CHF.

Most bus companies do not allow motorised wheelchairs on board buses simply because of their size. Transport For London has agreed to permit motorised wheelchairs on their buses however they have to meet strict dimension rules.

FixBus' policy isn't discrimination but rather a rule based on practicality.

Outrageous. Europe DOES have accessibility laws like the ADA, and some countries have had accessibility laws long before the ADA. Here is a link regarding rights of the disabled and transportation: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers_en

Scroll down and there is a link to a form to make a complaint. But as I have found in the US, the law is only as good as the enforcement, which is pretty lax. You may want to Do some research and contact a disabled advocacy group in the EU to let them know about the refusal by FlixBus.

It’s no excuse to say there is no room for a mobility aid when technology has advanced so much to help.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about this. They do not have to take electric wheelchairs. It is their decision.
They cannot refuse you (that would be discrimination), and you would probably be OK with a normal wheelchair, but they are entitled to refuse your electric wheelchair.
Buses are generally a lot more difficult for disabled passengers than trains. For trains, you usually have to contact the railway company some days in advance, as most older trains have steps, and they need to organise a wheelchair lift to get you on and off.

I was looking at traveling from Zurich to Mulhouse via bus. Train is 86. Euro with no stops.

"with no stops" is not true. There are no direct trains from Zürich airport (or Zürich city centre) to Mulhouse. You always need to change in Basel, and both trains will have multiple additional stops. You will need to allow extra time between trains at Basel than the website planner allows by default, to allow for getting your wheelchair on and off trains

Two more things to double-check with the hotels you plan to stay at:
1) Are there lifts? Are there stairs? Are the rooms big enough for your chair (most are not)?
2) Re-charging your chair. Will it work on European 230V 50Hz electricity? Is there a suitable socket in the room you can reach that can supply enough power?

John, I’m sorry about this. I’m w you and jvb. The world is not friendly to the disabled. It’s wrong and it’s not fair.
Even just accessing restrooms in Europe is difficult. I hope you find a satisfactory solution.

The regulations cited above say in relevant part: "Notwithstanding Article 9(1), carriers, travel agents and
tour operators may refuse to accept a reservation from, to issue or otherwise provide a ticket to, or to take on board, a person on the grounds of disability or of reduced mobility . . . (where the design of the vehicle or the infrastructure, including bus stops and terminals, makes it physically impossible to take on board, alight or carry the disabled person or person with reduced mobility in a safe and operationally feasible manner." I think complaining about FlixBus's decision on this matter is going to be a lost cause. I too hope for a satisfactory solution but I don't think one is going to come for a claim of violations of regulations. More likely, it will happen because of public pressure that affects the bottom line.

Unfortunately, the laws covering this are different in other parts of the world. The bus company is following the letter of the law in that part of the world and therefore is not discriminating.

Could things be different? Of course. The bus company could go beyond the letter of the law and allow persons with electric scooters or wheelchairs to take them along on their trips. However, until there is enough of a demand that the bus companies see a significant enough of a income from this there is nothing that will change unless the law changes.

Oh, and in case anyone cares to know, I have mobility issues. Over the past 2 years I have gone from happily tackling stairs to the top of any cathedral dome to moving to a ground floor flat because the stairs cause me too much pain. I just started using a cane to keep my balance and have it with me about 50% of the time. I cannot see myself taking any further RS tours (unless a miracle occurs) since I don't move fast enough, although I do still travel on my own. Doctors say that in about 5 years I will be in a wheel chair or totally immobile, depending on how I respond to available treatments. So I am not uncaring nor uninformed nor uninterested when it comes to mobility issues and accessibility, I just understand that business is business and without seeing a profitable application, or being forced by law which is the most likely option, most companies are not in a charitable enough frame of mind to make allowances.

“Until there is enough of a demand”

Demand won’t be known unless people speak up. I swear the disabled is the last group to get consideration and inclusion in society. Everyone is one accident away from needing accessible transportation., wider doorways, low thresholds to get in to buildings. For those that easily dismiss the need for having a bus that will transport an electric mobility device because it’s not “practical” or a money maker for the company, I hope you never have a need for accessibility. It takes a strong person to persevere when the tide is against you.

I have seen battery-operated wheelchairs on buses in Paris.

The bus has a ramp - but you have to go to the website for the specifics.
The wheelchair icon is there - I used a dummy address.
www.ratp.fr/itineraires?start=99+Aveune+Emile-Zola&lieu_depart=&end=Opera+Bastille%2C+Paris&lieu_arrivee=point_interet

Toilettes are access-friendly, if you have to go.

Here's a handy website for France:
http://www.sagetraveling.com/sage-traveling-monthly-newsletter/the-3-most-wheelchair-accessible-cities-in-europe/

Of course, there are restrictions on battery-operated cars in underground garages, so it might just be a question of insurance.

This absolutely is discrimination. Maybe not “legally” based on existing Law, but it absolutely is discrimination. And it is wrong.

jvb, I agree w everything you said. The disabled are treated very badly when it comes to accessibility. My son was born with disabilities and it made me see things very differently. Until it happens to you, it’s easy not to see the extreme discrimination.

But I agree there is nothing John can do about FlixBus in time for his trip.
The law has to change and that will take time and a lot of dedicated people to make it happen.

Good luck John, I hope you have a good trip despite all the hardships that come w disability.

Coaches can have extra large doors, lifts, and level surfaces within to enable wheelchair users to travel.

Some operators will restrict battery-operated chairs to dry cell or gel, They may also only accept a variety of wheelchairs that they have already approved for travel and verified as being able to be carried safely.

City buses in my home town include the Greyhound type which are the ones referred to as coaches. But they have a mid-cabin side door with a wheelchair lift and convertible seats next to that area where the wheelchairs can be secured for a safe ride. The seats can be used by anyone when no wheel chairs are on board and they fold out of the way for the wheel chairs. Any type of wheel chair is accepted, powered or manually operated. I have not see the electric scooters loaded on those buses so I am not sure they are allowed. So it is possible given the right push by government.

"Slopes to allow wheelchair access are much harder for me to walk on than the flat or even stairs"

Tell me about it. Frequently these slopes are the only access to a concern. Frequently these slopes are wet or otherwise slippery. For an 80 year old like me using a cane, these are deadly. There are many businesses I can no longer enter because of these slopes. Are opportunities for a small group of people being enhanced while sacrificing those of a larger proportion of the population? From the view point of any cafe terrace in Paris one will see many more upright aged than those getting around in wheelchairs.

Emma we're on the same team

"I wonder if part of the issue with electric wheelchairs is safety related to their batteries and maybe also their weight?"

I have been on buses carrying electric wheelchairs with dead batteries. No one on the bus was strong enough to move the wheel chair so we were stuck until big strong people could be sent to move the chair. Seems like the wheelchair owner bears some responsibility for making sure the batteries are charged. Many buses do not have two exits making a dead battery a disaster. While we can all talk about best of all possible world situations, practicalities must also be addressed.

75020, there’s a reason why you don’t see many people in wheelchairs in and about Paris (and many places).... wheelchairs can’t get there.

Paris is very wheelchair unfriendly... most sidewalk curbs are not sloped, bathrooms are often down a narrow, winding staircase, the mêtro is mostly inaccessible, etc.

“Small group of people”?? Minority, but not small. Maybe you think that because you don’t see many, and that would be because... they don’t have access.

People in wheelchairs have a right to go anywhere and everywhere the rest of us can go (person made places - obviously not natural environments like Mt Everest, etc). Your inconvenience for some sloping entries is nothing compared to the obstacles people in wheelchairs face every single day.

Batteries running out... everyone makes mistakes. I am sure the person in a wheelchair w a dead battery was the one most inconvenienced.

No one is denying that Paris is wheelchair unfriendly. Yes, the metro is a problem, but buses aren't. Toilets? The sanisettes installed all over Paris are completely usable by those in wheelchairs. Perhaps where you visit you see few curb cuts, however, in my neighborhood all curbs now have cuts. I also expect that you are not suffering from mobility issues so don't see the problems many of us with mobility issues but not in wheelchairs face.

"People in wheelchairs have a right to go anywhere and everywhere the rest of us can go."

No one is arguing that either. You missed the point. Sometimes the rights of some interfere with the rights of others and more attention should be given to the rights of all who might be affected.

I haven’t missed any points 75020. Yes, sometimes the rights of some interfere with the rights of others for noble and just reasons. I go all over Paris 75020. Sanisettes are not everywhere. Do not assume I don’t have mobility issues (you know what they say about people who assume), I very much do. Ramps are a problem for me too but I recognize my inconvenience is nothing compared to the inconveniences people in wheelchairs deal with every day.

Susan

There is a difference between what visitors perceive and those of us who live here perceive. By the way, if you wish to become acquainted with the placement of sanisettes, on your next visit get a hold of the 3 plans par arrondissement which shows them all.

To repeat
Sometimes the rights of some interfere with the rights of others and more attention should be given to the rights of all who might be affected.

If you live in the 20th arrondissement (75020 is the postal code for the 20th), good to hear that area is making improvements to the curbs for wheelchairs. As they, and everywhere, should have a long time ago.

As this is a forum for tourists to ask questions, I’m sure most would agree the 20th is not high on the list of most tourists to visit. The areas of Paris that most tourists visit are not wheelchair friendly at all.

I agree that the rights of all people in wheelchairs should be given more attention. Long overdue.

Bonne journée!

Charity starts at home. Americans concerned about this topic should read the following and have a discussion with their congresspersons:
https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/congress-wants-change-americans-disabilities-act-and-undermine-civil-rights

Congress Wants to Change the Americans With Disabilities Act and Undermine the Civil Rights of People With Disabilities

Tyler Ray, ACLU Washington Legislative Office & Vania Leveille, Senior
Legislative Counsel SEPTEMBER 6, 2017

Title III of the ADA creates a proactive duty on businesses to remove
architectural barriers and other obstacles that impede access to the
establishment. But businesses have resisted making such changes for
decades. And, now, they are asking Congress to help them. A harmful
new bill in the House of Representatives, the so-called ADA Education
and Reform Act of 2017 (H.R. 620), is gaining steam. It will be
debated in the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday morning and may
go to House floor for a vote soon thereafter.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/620

Latest Action: House - 01/30/2018 Placed on the Union Calendar,
Calendar No. 403

Paris is very wheelchair unfriendly... most sidewalk curbs are not sloped, bathrooms are often down a narrow, winding staircase, the mêtro is mostly inaccessible, etc.

The métro doesn´t have to be wheelchair accessible. The city of Paris makes sure that all of its handicapped citizenry has special vans that take them anywhere they need go. The service is called PAM 75 and just because you don´t know about it does not mean that it does not exist.

The city of Paris is very sensitive to those with special needs but there will always be certain constraints in a city constructed over 150 years ago.

"I’m sure most would agree the 20th is not high on the list of most tourists to visit."

Maybe a lot of Parisians in the 20th say thank heavens for that although perhaps the visitors to Père Lachaise think differently.

You can call G7 Taxis for an attached ramp for the handicapped.
www.g7.fr/en/discover-our-services/g7-access-taxi

Lola. Below is the train information I got.

GBP

Hi John

Help
TRAINS
TICKET DETAILS

Zurich to Mulhouse
Wed 23 May - 07:00

Departing on May 23, 2018 at 07:08. Arriving on May 23, 2018 at 08:44. With one train change and a duration of 1 hour and 36 minutes. Priced at £72.00.
07:08
23 May
08:44
23 May
1hr 36m
1 change from
£72.00
Departing on May 23, 2018 at 07:34. Arriving on May 23, 2018 at 08:53. Without train changes and with a duration of 1 hour and 19 minutes. Priced at £79.00.
07:34
23 May
08:53
23 May
1hr 19m
0 changes from
£79.00
Departing on May 23, 2018 at 08:00. Arriving on May 23, 2018 at 09:35. With one train change and a duration of 1 hour and 35 minutes. Priced at £72.00.
08:00
23 May
09:35
23 May
1hr 35m
1 change from
£72.00
Departing on May 23, 2018 at 08:08. Arriving on May 23, 2018 at 09:44. With one train change and a duration of 1 hour and 36 minutes. Priced at £72.00.
08:08
23 May
09:44
23 May
1hr 36m
1 change from
£72.00

This began as a discussion on Long Distance bus FlixBus. It has morphed a bit to Paris transport. When I traveled from London to Bruge on Eurolines several years ago, I notified the bus company a month in advance. When the day arrived to travel, the driver placed my electric scooter in the under the bus luggage storage and away we went. i can walk, using crutches, so that makes travel a bit easier, if they will allow my scooter to ride.

I have been to Paris probably 15 times in the past 17 years. I actually think it is not to bad. Most restaurants have outside seating, so eating and drinking is no problem. Toilets, up a flight of stairs or down the same, can be daunting a bit. But, taking my time and using my crutches, it works. I normally stay in the 9th and visit friends in the 17th. I roll all the way, stopping when my wife needs a break. Coffee is available everywhere and if you do not mind the extra Euro charge, you can drink it outside. I do use the bus at times, and they have ramps that come down from the middle of the bus. My wife takes my ticket and hers, validates them and stands beside me in the handicapped section of the bus. Usually, there are children in prams there, and we have lively discussions, along with their parents. I have not ridden the Metro in probably 13 years.

13 years ago, I did not need a scooter, I used the Metro in Paris. Now, a scooter is a necessity. Last summer, I traveled to Amsterdam, Paris, Wick and Thurso in Scotland. I used my scooter extensively. I stayed in a hostel in Amsterdam, on a barge. I left my scooter on the deck, covered with a tarp. I took my battery inside to recharge it every night. I did this for 8 days. I used my scooter all over Amsterdam. Same for Paris and Scotland. There are different degrees of handicappedness. I am not wheelchair/scooter bound. I can walk some, and that makes me able to do things that wheelchair bound people cannot. This is what makes me angry with FlixBus. They unilaterally dismissed me without even asking if I could walk or get on the bus as a "Normal" person. The just ASSUMED I was wheelchair bound and unilaterally dismissed my query. A scooter is not a wheelchair. There is a big distinction.

Below is what the FAQs on the Flixbus website state regarding travel for people with disabilities. I assume you referenced this in your email to them?

"If you have limited mobility and are able to board and disembark the bus independently or with the help of an escort, then we are already able to transport you on all of our lines. If you rely on a wheelchair but you can stand up and climb into the bus on your own, you can also travel with us on all lines. If you also rely on your wheelchair in the bus, we can currently only offer you transportation after careful, previous inspection of your wheelchair and on certain routes for operational reasons."

It's unclear what information you did or did not provide Flixbus prior to their reply. You did not post your e-mail to them, only their reply back to you. So, in all fairness, I am not sure how we are to evenhandedly parse this. It seems like Flixbus is more-or-less transparent on their website in what they can or cannot do, and they advise that folks notify their customer service to sort out any details at least 2 weeks in advance of the trip.

I agree with John their actions are discriminatory. A scooter is a commonly used mobility device and to not accommodate it is an act of discrimination. This needs to be pointed out so companies like Flixbus make the changes to be accommodating. Storing a scooter where the luggage goes is not an unreasonable accommodation.

John, those train times you were quoted are starting at Zürich HB, that is the city centre. I (and probably other people) assumed you were starting at Zürich airport, which is a different station (called "Zürich Flughafen").

I am sorry Flixbus will not take your electric wheelchair. But I can see their point, they are obliged to take you, your sticks and a collapsible wheelchair. But electric wheelchairs can be large and bulky, and larger ones may not fit in the luggage compartment.
The Flixbuses I have seen are standard coaches, with steep steps at the front and a luggage compartment under the seats.
Photo: https://www.ksta.de/image/24323296/2x1/940/470/6f63398ba3cc32ce60605d51f8ecd758/bW/flixbus.jpg

According to their website ( https://www.flixbus.co.uk/service/luggage ) :

Generally your ticket includes the free transportation of:
- One item of hand luggage (max. 42 x 30 x 18 cm, max. 7kg)
- 1 item of luggage (max. 80 x 50 x 30 cm, slight deviations in dimensions with a max. circumference of 160 cm permitted, max. 20 kg)

Pushchairs/wheelchairs/walking aids
Pushchairs, wheelchairs and walking aids are transported on some of our buses for free. Wheelchairs and walking aids must be registered with us over the telephone at the latest 36 hours before your departure:
Please note that due to safety reasons, wheelchairs can only be taken along if they are foldable and without an electric device.

I am currently on sticks after having broken my leg and having it in plaster. I am very grateful that most of the trams here have low floor entry, instead of the 3 big steps the older ones have. Electric wheelchairs drive on and off the new trams under their own power, no assistance needed.

If you can walk at all, John, you can get a seat on the bus.

Maybe your scooter or wheelchair will fit in the places reserved for them.

John, my question was which website provided you with those prices? In GBP? The prices I saw were right on the SBB site for May, using a pretend booking. 50 CHF is not bad.

Emma, thank you for posting the article. Some great ways to make cities accessible. Loved the beacons to use with the BlindSquare app.

Emma, thank you for posting the article. Some great ways to make cities accessible. Loved the beacons to use with the BlindSquare app.

Emma. The airlines have no problem asking. I also told them it was a scooter, not a wheelchair.

chexbres- The problem is: It is a power scooter. NOT a power wheelchair. They do not see any distinction. There is. My scooter will fold to the point of fitting in the boot of a Toyota Corolla. So, it is fairly small. It weights about 78 pounds. They, and some here, ASSUME that is the size of a full sized wheelchair that weights 300 pounds. It does not. It weights in at 78 pounds and can be disassembled to 3 parts equaling about 27 pounds each. It is smaller that several suitcases I have seen loaded on buses, trains, and planes.

Chris F - It is not a wheelchair. It is a scooter. There is a big difference.

Scooter: http://www.1800wheelchair.com/category/3-wheel-scooters/

Wheelchair: http://www.1800wheelchair.com/category/power-wheelchairs/

Lola. I was using https://loco2.com/ as a starting point.