French Manners; to Intrude or Not?

I'm no expert in French culture but have made a number of trips to France and my feeling is that this is an important detail for someone such as yourself who is concerned about being a polite North American tourist.

I think it's considered fine if you do what you said in your post: As you enter the store, "offer your greetings towards their general vicinity and consider it done." It should be fairly loud and in a cheery tone, loud enough so that they'll hear it. If you can easily make eye contact, even better, but if it's a larger store, offering a greeting towards their general vicinity should do it, assuming it's loud enough for them to hear it. But you don't have to wait for them to finish with someone else, that's my experience.

If you do this, you've done your duty as a polite North American tourist. You could also add a lilting "au revoir" as you leave the store, but that's a bit less important because you're out the door by then.

I think the single most important thing, aside from store situations that we've already discussed, is this: not to approach an individual, such as a clerk, ticket seller, or other tourist service industry employee, without first saying--once you've made eye contact--the obligatory "Bonjour Madame/Monsieur." This seems to be important to the French. In situations where I've forgotten to do this, I've noticed a coolness on their part.

If they notice you say Bonjour.

I would do the greeting thing whether they notice you or not.

I agree with Kent and have had similar experiences. I do recall one time when I was a bit rushed/concerned and quickly approach a guard at Versailles, I believe, and said, "where is. . .". She was cool. Mistake #1 not greeting her. Mistake #2, not making an attempt at speaking French or asking in French if she spoke English. She did answer the question but was clearly annoyed. An apologetic, "Merci, Madame" smoothed the ruffled feathers a bit.

Yes, the French are different, more formal (even in this day and age), and seem to expect it from tourists (many other nationalities give tourists more leeway).
I've read that many French don't like to be asked, even in French, if they speak English--that it's actually a bit disconcerting to many of them, because with their keen interest in speaking well, that even those fairly good in English are reluctant to claim that they do speak English and may say "non", they don't speak English.
However, after hearing my francais, which is painful to their ears, they usually say: "Actually, I do speak English un peu." And then we continue in anglais, and their anglais is so much better than my grancais.

What Ken and Kent said is exactly right. The only part i diverge on is, if you want to be polite and respectful, you always say Merçi, Au Revoir when you leave, even if you don’t buy anything.

Also, in some small shops, you should ask if you can touch something before touching.

What Susan said about the touching merchandise thing! This is very easy for us to make a mistake on, because we're so used to doing it.

What Kent said...

I first use the appropriate greetings in French, then say in French my questions. Since I'll most likely have difficulty in comprehending what they reply, I ask in French if they speak English.

No problems as they can plainly see I am a tourist, they will reply in English.

At the end I say en français, "Merci, madame/monsieur" and "bon journee."

In Germany and Austria I go right into the German and stay with it. If "they" reply in English, I continue with the German...ie, no lapsing into English.

And the same (about touching) fruits and vegetables in a grocery store and sometimes the market. They will put it in a bag for you.

It's a conundrum. I've tried to learn some French. It's a tough language. I've been more successful with Spanish and that isn't saying much. I have learned French greetings and the polite words. When I ask for something in French in a shop, like "un baguette, por favor", or similar, I get a response in French that I can't understand and then I stand there looking stupid. So if it is impolite or not the custom to ask if someone speaks English, and I do get that in itself is a bit impolite, it is France after all, what do I do? I should say, I've not had difficulty anywhere in France, and people have been quite charming and willing to help, but of course, I would like to follow social norms. In Alsace we did ok, with my limited German. Loire, Burgundy, Normandy and Brittney, we often had a bit of difficulty communicating, but the French people that we encounter always have tried to be helpful.

I guess, my advice would be to smile and greet everyone when about to ask a question or entering a shop. Don't worry too much. From there, you can muddle along. I love France and will continue to visit France. I find that people in France are just as kind and helpful as other places, just a bit more reserved and formal.

I find that people in France are just as kind and helpful as other places, just a bit more reserved and formal.

What Jules said.

I'd like to point out that my comments above should be interpreted by allowing for the fact that I've had a number of years of French in school (still far from fluent). Unlike many other peoples, many French seem to think that even from tourists a passable French accent is important. Travelers who haven't had French language instruction, will tend to face the same conundrum that Jules describes.

I've found the same expectation of a greeting in Italy and Switzerland. I followed a group of non-greeting Americans into a few small shops in Sicily, specifically watching the reaction of the shopkeepers. It was notably frowning and negative, changing to more positive expressions when I gave an appropriate greeting. It seems to be our usual thing to avoid eye contact in the US, as well as fear of mispronouncing those foreign expressions.

But I think what people call formal (as if informal is the culture norm) is really respectful. Whether French waiters or German desk clerks, respectful and professional is considered the right way for strangers to interact, not instantly friendly and overly familiar. My observation anyway.

Good points by Stan. Rick has said that most Americans tend to think informality--using first names early on, etc--is "friendly", and that a note of formality is "unfriendly"; while the French tend to think that these same behaviors are inappropriate except with people one knows well. Hence there's almost a built-in culture clash between Americans and French.

As stated above, just blow it into thin air but look around the room a bit. I’d avoid trying to distract the sales person. A little nod. It’s a question of acknowledging the presence of not just the clerk, but also every person present. You can just say bonjour, especially if there’re several persons. Or you can say just mesdames, if it’s all women. Or monsieur, madame if it’s both, which is what I do, as opposed to my French family who use the colloquial monsieur-dame. And you can mumble. All of the above work, either alone or with bonjour added. You’ve got a lot of flexibility. It’s just acknowledging other humans.
Then when it’s your turn to be waited on, say bonjour madame/monsieur directly to the person, but clearly, and then start your transaction.

You didn’t ask about au revoir at the end, but since it has come up, yes you should say merci au revoir monsieur /madame at the end of the transaction.

And after forty-five years of interaction in France, I still forget to say bonjour from time to time before asking a question.

In my first job as a college grad, I worked in an area in Minneapolis with smaller shops. At lunch time we'd stroll and mostly window shopped. A workmate always said hello when she entered a shop and thank you when she left even if she didn't buy anything. I always just spoke when spoken to otherwise never said much unless I had a question. It occurred to me that it is just polite to greet another person/sales clerk/shop owner and that its better to ask rather than handling merchandise without thought. So, I always will say hello/thanks even in the U.S. If anything, its just more friendly.

"It's a tough language." Maybe. Certainly some parts of it are "tough," such as the irregular verbs and pronouns in the word order.

Comparing the two, I will say French is tougher than German.

Fred, I've heard it said (maybe Twain?) that French is so tough even the French don't pronounce it correctly.

@ Stan...Admittedly, if it is by Twain, I am not familiar with that comment. What I find "tough" and challenging, perplexing, etc in French is not saying it, ie, the pronunciation, but the grammar, ie, the word order in the negation, the pronouns, the irregular verbs, the verb forms, and the verb spellings, etc.. Still, it's practice, practice, so if "they" can do it, then I had better too, if only to get over this linguistic deficiency.

In French grocery stores you handle and choose your own produce; you also weigh it and get a price sticker before check out. The machines are pretty obvious to use. In a market or small greengrocer usually the proprietor handles the merchandise and assembles and weighs it for you.

'To intrude or not' - Depends about the situation and it’s much about intuition. Entering the shop and the shopkeeper already is talking to somebody else and the conversation seems quite personal or otherwise focused and he or she keeps eye contact with that person for me it says “please wait a moment”, and not interrupt that with a greeting. As soon the shopkeeper interrupts the conversation and makes eye contact with me I nod and as soon (s)he stops the conversation I start greeting. In case there are more people in the shop and the shopkeeper small talks to everybody I greet and join the party as good as it gets.

Further I would not make to much a politeness contest of it, try to take a mistake with a grain of salt, the lesser painfull it will be the moment you make one. French are in general introvert, so in case you are extravert it helps if you are aware of that, so you better can handle the difference in getting along with each other. It's to my opinion more a matter of understanding each others mindset.

Thank you all so much. This has been very helpful and has put my mind at ease.
Wil; I think you are correct in that the French are like Introverts, and as I am one myself I will feel comfortable with the quieter, respectful greeting style. Great analogy.
And thanks everyone for reminding me to finish the conversation as politely as you begin it. And to try and speak French first, no matter how bad my French Canadian accent sounds to their ears.
Merci mes Amis!

Wil, yes, I agree that this is not a "politeness contest" and if the shopkeeper is conversing with someone when I enter the shop I am not going to just randomly shout "bon jour", interrupting. I know enough French to function, but I most likely would not know (or be exposed enough to) the conversation in progress to tell if it is serious or just a friendly chat. I will take the first opportunity, if the shop keeper looks at me directly for example, to great them properly.

I think it kind of depends on what store you’re entering. If you’re entering a smaller store, say a busy place like a bakery where there may be a few people waiting, I would say “Messieurs Dames” as I am entering the door. Messieurs is plural for Monsieur. You don’t need another ‘mes’ for ‘dames.’ It doesn’t matter if people are talking or transacting business, you just sort of announce it as you walk in. Use just Messieurs or Mesdames if it’s just men or just women.

If this is too confusing just say ‘bonjour.’ If you say it as you walk in, you don’t have to assess if you are intruding

Deb,
I hope you have a wonderful trip! Your instincts and the helpful advice you have been given will make for smooth sailing.

We just got back from France. While we have been to Paris before, we have never been out in the countryside. We spent a wonderful week in the village of Loches. While most of the townspeople spoke enough English to help, I did run into a few shopkeepers who spoke no English. The good news is that with my extremely limited French and lots of charades, we were able to complete the transaction. It was all done in good spirits.

I agree, a cheerful "bonjour" when entering a shop is appreciated. I viewed it as a minor triumph to make my daily morning visit to the boulangerie and order a croissant for my grandson and me without speaking a word of English. Speaking of my grandson, he was our secret weapon. He has just finished a year of college in France studying French. I watched a number of folks warm up to us when he would speak.

Yes, the French seem a little more reserved than the boisterous Italians. Yet, they are very intuitive and seem to discern when folks are trying their best to be polite and respectful. Kudos to you to want to do the right thing.

One of Rick’s recommended books is “French or Foe” by Polly Platt, which my local library was able to find with a bit if difficulty. The one thing that stuck in my mind was the author’s 10 magic words to learn, so much so that I put a note with them in my phone:

excusesz-moi, de vous deranger monsieur
(or madame)
(Excuse me for bothering you)

j’ai un probleme
(I have a problem)

I’ll find out next week how well they work.

(I also think it’s funny that the French word for “bothered” is “deranged”)

Polly Platt was my absolute hero when I was a young wife, working mother in Paris in the 1970s and 80s. Many of us young American wives of Europeans read all her books to help us navigate this high-energy city and traditional culture. I still use « j’ai un petit problem », and it works very well.
Bon voyage.

A few years ago we read a book that really helped us to understand better, The Bonjour Effect: The Secret Codes of French Conversation Revealed by French Canadians Jean Benoit-Nadeau and Julie Barlow.

Also I recently watched the French language lesson on this website, and found it very helpful, especially with pronunciation and some key phrases.

https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/video/travel-talks/french-language

French Manners; to Intrude or Not?

You are NOT intruding so this thread title does not represent what you wish to do. :-)

Any insight into this potential cultural minefield would be greatly
appreciated!

It's not a minefield; it's simple common courtesy that you probably already do in the US. :-)

When you walk into a store, say "bonjour" and smile. An employee may be assisting someone else but he/she is also paying attention to the door. Then when you leave, say "merci" and "au revoir". It is the same as if you were walked into a small store in NYC, Boston or any town. You say hello when walk in the door and then say thank you when you leave.

The greeting in the general vicinity works just fine if they are busy when you enter.

As to "When I ask for something in French in a shop, like "un baguette, por favor", or similar, I get a response in French that I can't understand and then I stand there looking stupid. So if it is impolite or not the custom to ask if someone speaks English, and I do get that in itself is a bit impolite, it is France after all, what do I do?"... the easy workaround to this is to learn (in French) how to first apologize that you don't speak French (or speak very little) and then ask if they speak any English. No French person has ever gotten bent out of shape when I've approached them in that manner. In fact, when they hear the apology followed by the inquiry, they often go above and beyond to be extremely helpful. I can speak a small amount of French, but I have a hard time keeping up with the speed at which they provide a response, so I often have to revert to the apology followed by the inquiry whether they can speak any English.

In regard to asking for some bread or other item in French and following it up with "por favor", the French are probably trying to tell you that por favor is not French, it's Spanish - but at least now they just think you are from Spain and don't know the French word for please.

deb, if you have a Smartphone, the Google Translate app is super helpful.

You could try "bon jour, madame, good morning" and then "merci, thank you". That way they know that English needs to be involved in the conversation. They are just as interested in a positive transaction as you are, but need to know how to talk to you.

Ceidleh, good catch, my last two trips have been to Spain, and I worked for a year to learn some Spanish. Now I have Spanish "on the brain"., definitely Sil vous plait, for France! And I got really confused in Catalunya, where its this mix of Spanish and French and other influences, I would guess, something like, sis plaut. Now I'm working on Italian. Definitely easier than French. I really do like France, wish their language was easier to learn.