French is tough - tips for language success?

A) to some extent offended to hear a foreigner try to voice their language,

I have never found that to be the case.

B) willfully resistant to hearing a foreign accent.

Only if you do not know what you are doing.

I agree completely with Tocard. I’ve never had these experiences.

I agree with Tocard and Bets. French people, including those with whom I work, have been listening to my Oklahoma-accented French for some 19 years now - and yet continue to encourage and engage with me.

My French is NEVER going to sound anything near to native.

Learn common verbs and their conjugations, and also some common phrases. You can then piece together the phrases with your knowledge of verbs and nouns.

I have been here for almost a month already and I don't get beyond the basics-- thank you,excuse me! I seem to smile a lot and truly I get a lot of smiles back and very successful completion of whatever task I was attempting. I know that's not the answer you were looking for but it's all the answer that I have.

What were you trying to say with that “Haut Lieu” and how did you pronounce those two words? Can you write the sounds you used phonetically?

Hank,
Non-native speaker here. I am married to someone who spent his younger years in post-war France, so I have the chance to use my high school and college French with his family over there. I can only say that being around people speaking French, some level of immersion is really the best way to improve your accent. His mother, born in the US with a French mother and American father, who lived part of her youth in France and part in the US, always spoke French with a slight American accent, and English with a slight French accent. Her son, my husband, went to France at four, with no French at all, returned to the US at 11, with no English left in his head, and, like his mother did, regained his English language skills. (There was no ESL for him at eleven, and he was with a non-French speaking family, so he really did learn just by immersion!) Compound that with the fact that many of the French family members were Marseillais, and you have the strong Provencal accent to contend with as well! Yet even without my husband's family to practice on, I have to give credit to my French teachers in high school and college who were diligent in stressing our pronunciation, whether it be in conversation or reading the literature aloud. (Let's hear it for the "dictes"!)
Don't be discouraged! Try a class, maybe at a junior college near you, or maybe with one of the programs out there, like Dualingo or Babble, etc. Practice makes perfect. Keep trying. And don't be sad about mistakes. I have made some real bloopers, using false cognates and very iffy franglais. You will succeed!
Bonne chance!

I speak a little French. Most people I meet appreciate the fact that I try to communicate with them in their language.

Don't let people make you feel nervous or belittled. You're doing your best and if they don't appreciate it, walk away.

Eleanor Roosevelt said "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

I think joining a French class or a conversation group at home is an excellent idea. You’ll be able to practice the vowel sounds with a group who’ll understand the difficulty and hopefully support and encourage you, and just become less self-conscious. I agree that French is a more difficult language for foreigners to learn - the rearrangement of one’s tongue and throat is much harder than for, say, Italian or Spanish. Good luck!

By the way, to my ears, the most beautiful and pure French pronunciation/accent belongs to the Little Sparrow, Edith Piaf. Try to get your hands on any of her records or CDs and just listen with your eyes closed. I will never be able to roll my Rs like her, but it is delicious to hear her do it. And not every French person can compete with her for those Rs!
As a matter of fact, I think I'll slip one of her CDs into my player right now.

Courage! (In my head I said that with the French accent.)

Hank, I recommend the website iTalki.com for language learning. I have been using it to learn Russian. You can find a teacher to work with you. Each teacher posts a resume and a short video and you can see when the teacher is available. You can filter by language, by country, whether teacher/community tutor, etc. You can do trial lessons at discounted rates to see if you like the teacher. It’s very flexible but you get quality lessons. I’ve been using this site for 3+ years.

More than pronunciation, the biggest problem I have observed that is not realized by most Americans is the difference in decorum, a different tone, a different attitude. Tu vs vous is a feeling, not just language. We don’t have friends right away; we have acquaintances, pals, people we know. Friend is a rarified word. There’s more formality. You won’t find people using first names off the bat. Big handshakes and toothy smiles can seem overwhelming. Finally, people keep more to themselves and don’t share their personal lives with every stranger or sales clerk. At least, not before the third glass of wine. If you are getting push back, you may want to scan your level of formality vs what in France we call complicité and see where you fall.

Well said, Bets!

I once asked a young London hotel clerk for directions to a place that I knew wasn’t far. I absolutely could not understand a word she said.

I tried "Haut Lieu" with a tasting room attendant like 5 times in a row, sure I was making the same sounds as she was. Nope, every time "no! say ...."

That isn't belittling, that's fairly typical French helping.

She wasn't, I don't think, making fun of you, she was trying to help you get it right. She was trying to be kind.

Many is the time I have been brought up in the middle of what I thought was a proper French sentence - 4 years of French for me, 2 in school and 2 in a Montréal university, and a mother who was completely fluent and worked as a translator - by a French person correcting my grammar or usage or pronounciation. They see that you are making an effort instead of just saying "no French - American" and want you to get it right.

Yes, when I first happened my hairs stood on end and I was not a happy bunny. It wasn't until it was explained to me, like I'm doing here, that I understood and was content. I am old now and much of my French has left me, but still I try because I enjoy it...

good luck with your trip

My experiences speaking French in France have only been positive. If I get any reaction at all from the natives, it's a smile (reserved, bien sûr!) and a compliment. And it's not too uncommon for them to gently correct me, which I accept gratefully.

I have been practicing with Duolingo however my pronunciation is still definitely American and does not seem to improve. I take some solace in the fact that I once heard an Australian man with a Melbourne accent speaking French and I actually understood him. The French person did also. It's better to try.

If all else fails: je vais l'écrire

I tried "Haut Lieu" with a tasting room attendant like 5 times in a
row, sure I was making the same sounds as she was. Nope, every time
"no! say ...."

That isn't belittling, that's fairly typical French helping.

yeah Nigel I wasn't saying that it was. The tasting room lady was fine, not particularly nice or patient but not being or having a problem. Rather that was an example of me not being able to hit the right vowel sounds.

But I will say that I understand when people are treating me like I'm stupid or being otherwise belittling. As I made repeatedly very clear in my OP, not common, and French people have also been the nicest to me about weak language skills. But the idea that it's always me because linguistic discrimination doesn't exist among the French, who have enough of a contemporary problem with linguistic discrimination that literally they recently felt the need to specifically legislate against it, is unrealistic. I mean it's right there in the legislation, prima facie.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20201127/france-approves-law-banning-discrimination-based-on-a-persons-accent

Not ascribing this attitude to you Nigel! But sometimes it feels like any issue you have as an American with any French person is somehow always 100% your own fault. That can't be so ....

Don't be discouraged! Try a class, maybe at a junior college near you,
or maybe with one of the programs out there, like Dualingo or Babble,
etc. Practice makes perfect. Keep trying. And don't be sad about
mistakes. I have made some real bloopers, using false cognates and
very iffy franglais. You will succeed! Bonne chance!

..,.

I agree that French is a more difficult language for foreigners to
learn - the rearrangement of one’s tongue and throat is much harder
than for, say, Italian or Spanish. Good luck!

...

Don't let people make you feel nervous or belittled. You're doing your
best and if they don't appreciate it, walk away.

Eleanor Roosevelt said "no one can make you feel inferior without your
consent."

All helpful advice! Thanks very much for the encouragement. I do think taking a class will help.

I took eight years of French in school and college so speak the language fairly well. The French people that I interacted with couldn’t be more accommodating knowing this is not my first language especially when I can’t remember a certain word. They have been very helpful and patient. Only once was I treated rudely when I was tired and my diction was poor. The language can be difficult for those not accustomed to it. My husband tries to speak the language (which he never studied) and will mix up “onion” for “agneau” and “anglaises” for “eglise” for example. We still laugh about his attempts at the language.

I took eight years of French in school and college so speak the
language fairly well. The French people that I interacted with
couldn’t be more accommodating

8 years is a lot of French Mary!

I think my level is a lot closer to your husband's. Similar levels have been adequate for other languages, but I think I need to get a couple of French classes under my belt. I don't get flustered when things start to go wrong with language in other places. Got to build up my confidence :)

By the way, to my ears, the most beautiful and pure French pronunciation/accent belongs to the Little Sparrow, Edith Piaf. Try to get your hands on any of her records or CDs and just listen with your eyes closed. I will never be able to roll my Rs like her, but it is delicious to hear her do it. And not every French person can compete with her for those Rs!

Edith Piaf's R is an uvular trill that is no longer present in contemporary French. I've only ever heard it in songs and in old reels. So you don't need to practice it - I am unable to produce that sound, even as a native French speaker.

I no longer bother to attempt the all in - I've got all the pleasantries locked down and that will have to suffice. If the person on the other side thinks that to be inadequate, they should throw up their hands and I'll happily go to another shop.

Most importantly, with contactless pay, just show me the amount, let me tap, and away I'll go.

Hi Hank. It sounds as if you really want to work on your pronunciation and on understanding cultural differences. Here are three resources:

The first is a telecourse called French in Action; episodes are available on line or perhaps through your public library. French in Action was developed in the 1980s at Yale and is still sound; it will leave you with a headfull of helpful phrases. The second is the intensive residential course at Institut de Français in Villefranche-sur-Mer outside of Nice which includes a language lab component with individual feedback from your teacher. They have a website. The third is French or Foe, Polly Platt’s widely available book for Americans by Polly Platt on overcoming cross-cultural problems.

Best of luck!

“French in Action” is available online for fee from Annenberg:

https://www.learner.org/series/french-in-action/

It is OK, but not as good as their “Destinos” Spanish course, in my view.

We like Pimsleur for learning spoken French; we used to listen and speak in the car on our way to work. But both my husband and I took French in high school for 3-4 years so that was a good introduction to pronunciation. And I found that listening to, and singing along with, Edith Piaf did wonders for my speaking ability.

Last two post s so helpful!

I would like to try an immersion program at some point when I get my French language skills better. Really minimal at this point.

My wife and I really like France, rapidly becoming our favorite place to travel in Europe. Her German is solid, and my Spanish elementary but functional. So of course France becomes the place pulling us into its orbit ;)

Polly Platt wrote her books over 50 years ago, and they are still among the best on the cultural adaptation. Timeless.

My high school in San Antonio didn’t have French as a language option, so I didn’t get to start it until I went to college. The best thing about the first semester was that it was all auditory, like it is when we first learn to talk. We used nothing written. For me that was a big help, especially since I'm more of a visual and kinesthetic learner than an auditory one. It was also a help that languages were 5 semester hour classes, so we had class everyday plus daily language lab homework. I guess that was a form of mini-immersion.

There are some people who have a talent and a gift for learning languages. And there are many people who do well because they were born into a bilingual house. These days kids can start very early learning a second language in some schools in the US, maybe in kindergarten or 1st grade like is possible in Europe.

Then there are the rest of us who have to really work at it because we start so comparatively late. How proficient we become is based on how much we want or need to communicate with people in their language.

I'll never be able to have an intellectual conversation with a native speaker, but I get by (weakly), in Spanish, French and German. Beyond the basics and pleasantries, my favorite phrases in any language are how do I say xxxx 🤔 and what is that 👉 called. I love it when I'm corrected. And I particularly loved it when the waiter in Paris switched to English, saying, "You're trying very hard, aren't you?" 🤣

Good luck to you Hank. I completely understand what you’re saying, I have a horrible time using the minimal travel French I do know because I can hear how awful it must sound to French ears. The vowel sounds really are hard for me. I took a travel French class at a community rec center where I live and it was helpful to some extent because of the drilling twice a week for 4 weeks before I traveled. That might be something to check into. I’m going back in Oct of ‘24 so I’ll need to see about a redo.

My wife is totally bilingual, having been raised in Montreal. Although I have high school French, it is rusty given the dearth of opportunities to practice it here in 'tous anglais' Toronto.
So one thing that we include in trip prep before traveling to France, is to play French Scrabble before departure, keeping a French dictionary handy.

Btw, my first career was playing in a rock band. Introducing our songs in admittedly rusty French whenever performing in Quebec proved to be a very good idea. The respect for their culture impressed our audiences in la Belle Province (you have no idea). Few Anglo bands thought to try that.

I am done. the maudit Anglais

« I would like to try an immersion program at some point when I get my French language skills better. »

You know, Hank, it sounds as though for you, the purpose of an immersion class would be to show what you already know when it’s actually a chance to show what you currently don’t know in order to learn more—like a person wanting to get fit enough before joining a gym. My advice is just to jump in as soon as you can, mistakes and all, whenever you can.

I have traveled with a Quebec native- first language French. In Paris when she speaks French, she is often answered In English. The assumption is that because her accent is not Parisian, she isn’t a native speaker. This hasn’t happened outside Paris.

I have a friends, bilingual Canadien, French and English speakers, who sent their children to the French school in Chicago. They were told not to speak French at home as it would “mess up” the kids’ Parisian accent they were taught in school.

OP, Is there an Alliance Française near you? They generally have low cost French class with native speakers.

Hank, I will take your French lessons for you, if you take my Hungarian lessons for me.

I speak German and once spoke a bit of Italian but French has eluded me as I try to acquire it mostly with on line instructional programs. It is hard to acquire a new language in old age. My pronunciation is terrible. And yet I have found that merchants in districts we stay are generally good sports and try to meet me half way. Most don't speak English or have less than my terrible French. So with pantomime and truly awful French I manage to conduct the business of acquiring what I need.

Thirty years ago I would occasionally find people rude about butchering their language, but I haven't had that experience in years. The only big problem is in very rural areas where people speak no English and assume if you use French you understand and so respond with paragraphs instead of as if we were toddlers just learning to talk.

Haven't had anyone be rude about it in years; of course my French isn't good enough to know if they are insulting me.

One big problem for me is not just pronunciation from the point of speaking, but also listening. I spent some time with Gael, Laetitia and News in Slow French for several months before we went this past spring. Far better than the course I took in the fall at Alliance Francaise, where one hears Americans butchering French.

Gael:
https://languatalk.com/blog/podcast/french/

Laetitia (I found it best to subscribe. 4 Euros per month)
https://onethinginafrenchday.podbean.com

News in Slow French:
https://tunein.com/podcasts/Language-Learning/News-in-Slow-French-p761034/?topicId=176588219

This was a big help in being able to converse with French whose English was comparable to our French ... or non-existent.

Hank, you’ve received better advice than I can give, but I just wanted be an encouragement to you to not give up! You’re past my level, but I do remember beginning with Duolingo a few years ago thinking “All I hear is sssss!” My hearing skills improved so much after a few weeks, understanding actual words. ; )

I’m 67 years old and spending at least 30 minutes a day on Italian now. Keep on learning along with keep on traveling!

@fred Thanks for those links! I’m going to take online classes at Alliance Francaise in Seattle and hope I have a better experience than you had. I tested into B2.3.

What I have found in France and also in Quebec is a huge frustration/anger at myself at not being able to speak French when I want to--which is kind of irrational since I have never learned it. I spent all my high school, college, and post college years learning and traveling and working in Spanish, and eventually became a Spanish teacher. Granted, I never consider myself fluent--only proficient. If I had ever been able to learn a third language, it would have been French. When I go on trips, Spanish, of course is the only foreign tongue that will come out of my mouth. I have tried a couple of the language apps (one of my Covid projects!) as well as a couple short pre-travel community college classes, but nothing sticks in my head. If I really wanted to learn it and use it, I would need to be in a more lengthy physical class, I think, and have that interactive classroom experience, with reading, writing, speaking, and listening. At this point in my life, that's probably not going to happen--so next time I will most likely try to just focus on the more useful travel phrases. But I can't help but feel myself missing out on meaningful moments when I can't have conversations or spur of the moment interactions.

OK, I was raised speaking Canadian French. This was our primary language at home. Engilsh was my second language starting school. Unfortunately, in my tweens, my French Canadian grandmother died and the family's use of French fell by the wayside.

In the late 80's, I traveled to Paris with a bilingual French Canadian/English speaker. Many of the Parisians we met seemed to not understand what she was saying. Not sure if this was snobbery or if they just couldn't get what she was asking, In later years, I worked with both a French Canadian French speaker and a Swiss French speaker. They explained what the issues were: The French Canadian would say "Please come to the table and sit with me." The Swiss French person would hear: "Please move the table and sit." This is a gross generalization of the conversation but Canadian French is very different from Parisian French.

As a once fluent French speaker, I took an immersion course in French and could not get it. The folks who had never spoken a word of French were speaking much more fluently than I. Much of that course was verb conjugation-I just wanted conversational French.

Despite all this, I am going to France in 2024. I can read and understand much more than I can speak but hoping for the best. HAnk, my suggestion would be to take some courses, either online or live, to get you to some kind of comfortable. I will be be using an online course to brush up on my everyday conversation. I have no expectation that my verb tense will be correct but who knows.

Final point: look for a conversational French course vs an immersion course. No need to be conjugating verbs if all you are doing is asking for directions or ordering a meal.

Hank,
Just to reassure you....I have four years high school French and a minor in French from college, finishing in 1973. But as time has passed with my using French only every few years or so (except for Christmas card messages), I find myself speaking in infinitives (to heck with conjugations! Hah!). My future tense is almost always "Je vais+infinitive. So don't beat yourself up. I have found people to be kind and tolerant of my poor grammar, and they seem to understand what I am trying to say. They are also "tres gentil" about my pronunciation. Things do improve after being in France for a few weeks. They will for you also. Just wait, your French pronunciation will improve with lessons, exposure, and time. Courage! (Once again, the French pronunciation in my head.)

I am a French teacher here in the USA. People don't leave highschool fluent and many people who even get a bachelor's degree in French don't come out fluent.

Why? It takes learning in a French-speaking country and being forced to use it. I was lucky: after my bachelors degree I was accepted by the TAPIF program in France which gives Americans internships to teach English in the French school system. This did wonders for my French.

Cela dit, I still take classes occasionally to keep my French up to snuff. Consider taking a month-long trip to France and enrolling at a language school such as l'Alliance Française de Rouen, l'Insitut de Touraine in Tours, or l'Institut Catholique de Paris. You'll be amazed how much you can progress.

Learning to better your French is great and all, but let’s be realistic. Very few of us have time for this in our adult lives, you have to be quite committed to do this for the brief window of your travels. And some of us just don’t have a great ear for it.

I found an app called Speakeasy that has been extremely helpful for pronouncing basic phrases. It’s great to know more, but not necessary. I look at it this way: As a tourist who wants to improve their French, you want to focus on your interactions as a tourist. In France, there’s no better place than in a restaurant. Learn the phrases, how to pronounce “boutille” and “un carafe d’eau” and you’re on your way. Also, I think in France knowing the forms/practices of what you are doing are as important as saying it properly. It’s a cultural thing. You can stumble over some words phrases when you’re ordering dinner as long as you’re obeying the “process of ordering dinner.” Read up on stuff, observe other customers, make eye contact with and greet the shopkeeper… it starts all those interactions off on the right foot. And when you begin your interaction with that sense of approval your confidence gets a real boost.