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Desperate for France/Italy Itinerary Advice!

Posted by (Santa Fe) on

Hi all! My husband and I (40) are going to Saint Tropez in June for his brother’s wedding. We like to make the most of trans-Atlantic flights by covering good territory, and I’m stuck between two potential itineraries for a 16 day trip. We’re flying into Nice, will do a couple of days there with his folks (who are 65-75), about three days in/near Saint Tropez, and then I have my heart set on the Luberon Valley for a couple of days. Here’s where the itinerary splits:

--Head to (car or train) Beune for two nights, check out Burgundy villages, then to Colmar or Strasbourg for two nights, check out Alsatian villages, then drive to Lauterbrunnen area for two nights (pray for clear weather), drive to Como for two nights, fly out of Milan.

--Direct flight from Marseille to Venice, two nights there, drive to Dolomites (Tre Cime for several hours), two nights in Val Gardenia (Ortesiei? I want to see the Seceda ridgeline), drive to Como for three nights, fly out of Milan.

Como is a huge wishlist place for me, and our flights are already booked out of Milan. I’d really appreciate perspectives on:
--Swiss Alps vs. Dolomites; I know Switzerland is way more expensive, but it will just be for two nights, and if we plan and save accordingly, not an issue. Also, renting a car in Italy (Venice) and dropping it off in Italy (Milan) is about $1,000 cheaper than taking a car from France. Not a dealbreaker, but definitely a consideration.

--VENICE IN JUNE. I guess this will ultimately be the deciding factor. If enough people tell me Venice will be thoroughly unenjoyable in June, then we’ll just nix it and save it for another trip in the shoulder season. We’re archaeologists and love history, and Venice is a huge deal! We’ve been to other places (Mykonos, Amalfi) that had heavy influences from Venetian traders, so we’d really love to see it in all of its splendor. I can tolerate crowds to a degree, for an amount of time, but if we’re literally going to be elbowing our way through crowds for two days, and it’s hot, and stinky, and full of mosquitoes, I’d just rather not.

To try to answer some typical follow-up questions/comments: we’re relatively fit and used to active travel; we’re comfortable driving abroad (have experience in Rome and Athens, as well as remote and windy roads in Tuscany and Romania), but definitely open to taking advantage of Europe’s extensive rail system. We love history, but prefer sites over museums.

Oh, and another question that might actually make a big difference: Are beds in France as hard as they are in Italy? Any insights are much appreciated! June is uncomfortably close, and I need to start pinning down accommodation! TIA!

Posted by
1557 posts

k.mil,
Do your 16 days include travel days, or is it 16 days on the ground? 16 days total gives you 14 days of vacation/sightseeing, etc. That might affect your itinerary decisions.
To estimate drive times between locations, try viamichelin.com. Enter start location (e.g. St. Tropez) and end location (e.g. Beaune), mode of transport , and it will show one or more routes (e.g. fastest, most scenic, etc.) Add 1-2 hours on to that to allow for short gas/food/comfort stops. This will give you a good comparison to train times. (I just tried St.Tropez-Beaune.....6 hours with about 50 euros in tolls on the autoroutes, via Grenoble, or 10+ hours on regular roads.)
And, yes, on the forum you will find no one who recommends dropping a car in a different country than pick-up. $1000.00 extra is about right. Some companies don't even allow it.
Lots to think about and decide!
Have fun planning!. Many of us enjoy going through our options. Happy trip!

Posted by
1557 posts

P.S.,
The last time I encountered hard beds in France (or anywhere in western Europe, for that matter), was in the 70s and 80s. And that included cheapo hotels and moderately priced ones. We've never stayed in fancy ones. Every gite or chambre d'hote we have stayed in since then has had comfortable beds.
I must add that when we slept in our VW bug in 1974, that was pretty uncomfortable. But we were 30 and 31 and made of sterner stuff then.
Bonne chance!

Posted by
1557 posts

k.mil,
Beaune is in the Cote d'Or (Burgundy), not the Luberon. Were you planning on stopping overnight in a town in the Luberon on your way to Beaune? Also, remember the rule of thumb is that two nights means only one full day for sightseeing. Take into account on your travel day checking out of lodging, and checking in on arrival at your destination, beside your travel time. You may arrive in the afternoon and have s few hours for seeing things, but it's best not to count on that, especially if you are driving and if you are travelling some distance.
We have driven to Colmar from Beaune using the autoroute, and it can be done so that you arrive in time to see some things, or wander around before dinner. We left Beaune around 9 a.m. We did spend a half hour finding our hotel and parking, then another half-hour with a terribly incompetent clerk who at first tried to put us in an occupied room. She was new and poorly trained, but eventually we were settled and had our car parked. We walked to the center of town and had time to just wander and find a place for dinner (followed by a fun evening in an Irish pub there!)
Best wishes for a happy trip!

Posted by
210 posts

I think that you should consider doing Venice another time. We were there in the off-season (October) and it was still quite crowded. If you only have a short time, it may not be worth it. We did not find mosquitos a problem in October, but summer in Venice is probably different. Peter

Posted by
28 posts

Hi Judy! We'll be on the ground for 16 days. Thanks for the tip about the Michelin trip planner--I didn't even think about tolls. The other thing I was thinking about was taking trains between some locations, but we'd want a car to explore the countryside and smaller villages, so we'd have to build in some time for sitting at rental car places.

To clarify, we already plan to spend a couple of nights in the Luberon valley and from there go either to Beaune or Venice.

Posted by
28 posts

Thanks Peter. I think you're probably right. It seems too easy to just hop on a short flight and finally see Venice, but this is probably not the trip for that.

Posted by
2586 posts

In June/July 2023 we went on a 3 week road trip that included the Dolomites, Venice, Stresa on Lake Maggiore, Wengen (in the Lauterbrunnen area) and Colmar. So I think I can help.

First, if Venice is calling to you, by all means GO! As a history/archaeology buff, it is fabulous! You’ll absolutely love it. Yes, it will be crowded, and probably hot and humid. But it will also be amazing. It was hot and humid when we were there. Only stinky at lower tides, and you can easily get away from the crowds. No mosquitoes at all.

Dolomites vs Swiss alps: I would actually go with the Dolomites. I was really surprised that I loved that area so much. Seceda is just other-worldly. We spent two nights in Santa Cristina val Gardena. We also took lifts to Col Raiser and Seiser Alm. Each view is so different. The area has a truly magical feel. And you get the best of the Austrian influences (architecture and food) and the amazing Italian food. We had the best steak and pizza of our lives at La Tambra restaurant. We stayed in one of their apartments and it was fabulous. Another huge plus is the prices are better in Italy. The Dolomites is not a cheap area for lodging, but food will be 50 % cheaper (and way better) than what it is in Switzerland.

By Como, I hope you mean Lake Como, not just the city Como. We stayed in Varenna on lake Como many years ago and it was wonderful. I don’t hear such great things about the city Como itself.

We loved the Colmar area so much that we returned for Christmas markets last year. The town and surrounding villages are just ridiculously adorable. It’s hard not to love the area. But I would save that area for another trip, maybe for the Christmas markets.

Posted by
34386 posts

I have found over the years that June is actually a really good time for Venice...

Going with the right mindset, willing to discover areas off the main pedestrian freeway between the rail station and San Marco, 99 percent of the city is not overwhelmed. Looking at history explore the Arsenale where ships were built on what was effectively an assembly line hundreds of years ago, into the more remote (nothing is actually remote - the city is fabulously walkable) sestiere or three. Get out into the outer islands. There is nothing like it.

I have been to Venice many times and never smelled anything from the canals.

No mosquitos in my experience, but in some places we have had the singing of gondoliers coming through the window (Hotel Ala).

Seeing Venice at dawn and dusk is magical, maybe even more at dawn. No trainloads of day tourists at that time either.

Posted by
8721 posts

If you have always wanted to see something, just do it. In Venice you can just start at San Marco and then walk as far from there as you can -- the place is all islands and eventually you run out of islands, so you can get lost. If you do then asks a bystander for directions to San Marco and head back in that direction. The further from the center, the more interesting -- with little passageways and bridges and charming buildings, churches, photo ops. We didn't find it stinky. At that time of year everywhere in Italy is a mosquito risk as they have not yet invented the window screen. Take a good DEET containing mosquito repellent just in case. I used to always have a mosquito repellent towelette in my back pocket so if we encountered them, we could quickly put the repellent on our arms and faces and neck. We found that the repellents available in Italy were useless including those stupid coils you plug in. You breathe whatever fumes they are putting out, but they dn't stop mosquitos.

Posted by
1883 posts

Some info about car rental, Lauterbrunnen, and Venice:
1. You can return a French car rental to the French side of the Geneva airport after visiting Lauterbrunnen, then fly nonstop to Venice. That $1000 inter-national car rental fee would be much more fun spent on fancy dinners or hotels....Pick up an Italian rental car at the Venice airport after you visit "no cars allowed" Venice.

  1. Lauterbrunnen: We stayed four nights at Hotel Silberhorn which also has a good restaurant. If you can only do two nights, don't bother - too much risk of low clouds = zero visibility. We planned one night for Jungfrau, one night for Schilthorn. The other night was our weather insurance - since we lucked out with clear September weather, we used the extra day to take the train to Interlaken and do a lake cruise.

  2. Venice: for maximum enjoyment, hire a private water taxi for transport between the airport and Venice. Late April, we stayed at Una Hotel Ala which is about six blocks away from San Marco. (Plan for three nights, two full days. If you can't do that, skip Venice - and we travel at a fairly fast rate - not the type who linger.) The crowds are mainly around San Marco Square and the Rialto Bridge. If you avoid those two areas, it's just normal crowding like you see in any large city. We had a lovely celebratory dinner at Gio's with views of the Grand Canal. Venice is buggy - it isn't so much mosquitoes as some really tiny flies. I was covered with non-itchy red dots - the dots went away in a few days but I wasn't thrilled about looking like an adolescent again! Hotel windows have shutters, no screens. You might want to read one of Donna Leon's Venice mysteries to get a feel for what Venice is like.

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