Critique my nascent and crazy itinerary!

. It makes me nervous, though, as if the plane is delayed, we could miss a train, etc

The trains to Normandy (I assume Bayeux) are regional trains, so you can just buy a ticket when you get to St Lazare station. Walk up price is 105.20 EUR for 2 currently. Yes you could save some money buying in advance, but like you say, the plane could be delayed and loose the tickets and have to buy new full fare tickets for the next train.

Hi there! Some questions: have you mapped out your itinerary on a map (like google maps) that also shows you how long it will take to get from A to B? Are you set on Lyon/Burgundy? If you are set on visiting Lyon, I’d skip Bordeaux and keep Burgundy. If you are open to taking Lyon and Burgundy off your list, you could train from Loire Valley to Bordeaux. There is a lot to see and do for 4 days there as your base.

When is this trip? You are aware of the Olympics, right?

Hi, I just have a couple of minutes to reply, so I will share my trip report - just traveled by train. Hope that helps!

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/our-combined-solo-couple-vacation-in-france-2019

@keickerman. I am just getting started. I actually used ChatGPT to propose a rough outline and was going to go from there. I need to figure out how to do an itinerary on google maps. I use it all the time for directions from one place to another, but I haven't really figured out how best to use it for overall trip planning. I usually use Rome2Rio or the SNCF app to figure out how long it will really take to get between regions.

Burgundy over Bordeaux seems like the universal vote, so I will stick with that. I really want to go to Lyon, I think if I had to skip something, it would be anything other than Normandy/Brittany in favor of Lyon.

@Pat, it is late June/early July, before the Olympics.

@Jean, I think I saw your trip report before when I was casting about for ideas. It is awesome, thank you.

Dear TravelChildMom - not to throw a damper on your plans, but please be aware that (I think) things will already be getting to be a mess in France in late June/early July regarding the Olympics -- teams and their coaches and support staff will be arriving to get acclimated, media will be descending to get settled in and set up, national Olympics committees are likely to begin arriving ....

I would honestly travel anywhere except France next summer.

Olympics considerations aside, travelling by public transport I would do Loire > Lyon > Burgundy and not the other way around. This lets you take advantage of direct trains from Tours to Lyon, instead of having to cross Paris by metro between Gare Montparnasse and Gare de Lyon.

Considering the Olympics, I would avoid overnighting in Paris at all. Head straight to Normandy as you land; give yourselves 4 hours between landing time and train departure time and you will be fine. And just aim to spend a final night at CDG airport. You could spend the extra night in the Loire, where 2 nights feels a bit short.

The issue with coming to France will not just be hotels in Paris. It will be with flights in and out of CDG. And trains in and out of Paris.

France will still be here. I would come anytime other than summer 2024.

Or fly round trip Barcslona and explore southwest France.

I suggest checking flight prices and Paris hotel prices now; it will give you an idea of how busy it will be and if you can afford it. If you find a flight you are happy with, book it. You might want to avoid staying in Paris, which would give you nights to spend elsewhere.

Re your itinerary. It’s quite rushed. Do you like fast trips and just getting a glimpse of places? If so, this could work. But realize that two nights in a place only gives you —at best — 1.5 days to see and do things. As you estimate the time to get from place to place, make sure to allow time to pack, check out, get to the train station, wait for the train (you don’t want to cut it close if it’s an unfamiliar station), get to the new hotel and check in.

If you’re okay with moving around a lot and only seeing the highlights, this itinerary could work. The only stop I think you really need to add a night to is Normandy. You’re going to have to rent a car or book a tour. Do you really want to do that on your first full day when you may still be tired from the flight. As history lovers, this is one stop you don’t want to short change. There is so much to see, and it’s a beautiful area even without the WWII history.

France is full of wonderful places. I hope you have a great trip!

@Bets @Kim. I already have the flights. They are exchangeable, but I was able to book nonstop saver award flights with no difficulty. We did Barcelona and the Cote d’Azur last summer.

@Calvados I have spent hundreds of hours planning travel and have four RS books on my couch right now. ChatGPT was to get a rough sense of order of locations so I could start planning.

@Carroll I already have the flights -- nonstop saver award tickets that were right there for the taking only 10 days ago, which I took as a good sign with respect to Olympics timing. I am very open to less time in Paris (weird sentence to write, as I am also open to being in Paris, any time at all!); the number of nights there were more around logistics. I will say that I understand what everyone is saying around moving around so much. We were exhausted with our trip last summer, and though we moved around a lot, we moved hotels a bit less. We were able to have a home base in Nice for five days, so that was great. The distances here are more challenging. I am considering all this advice.

I think, for starters, fewer nights in Paris. Maybe none in the beginning and we will just power through to Normandy. And maybe one night at CDG at the end. If I can time it right, maybe we can stash our bags at the airport hotel, take a train into the city and do a couple of the things I still have on my list for Paris and take a train back to CDG on the same day. The day trips from Paris can definitely go, those were just thoughts for if I was in Paris that long. That gives me an extra couple of days for the rest of the trip. Then I can look at whether I want to skip one of the Loire Valley or Burgundy, or if I can manage both. I don't know enough about them to decide at this point, but the Loire Valley was one of the main purposes of the trip.

I will say, I was more worried about transportation/packing and repacking, etc., than time spent in the places because RS France suggests basically the amount of time I have listed for these.

I definitely plan on tours for anywhere that we want to learn history and/or need a car. We were not going to attempt Normandy without a guide; probably a private guide so we can ask more questions and plan what we see a little better. If anyone has a great guide for Normandy, let me know.

Hmmmm. ... If I do Paris straight to Normandy, I am not going to be up for four train changes with all of our luggage. I guess I would take a taxi/G7 to St. Lazare or whichever station I need. I couldn't do that on a normal day, let alone after an international flight.

Yeah, take a taxi to St Lazare, it is convenient!
And trains to Normandy are direct from Saint Lazare. No changes.

Have you thought about a stop in Rouen? Repurpose one of those nights at the end. When I travel with a compressed schedule like this, I have some fairly strict self-imposed rules about how long I am willing to spend moving between stops. I will generally use taxis to/from airports and distant train stations and avoid train journeys that are over 3 hours.

Grinding it out to Rouen upon your arrival is easier than going all the way to Bayeux, or you can still spend the night in/near Paris and then on to Rouen the next day. It also makes the journey from Rouen to Bayeux relatively painless.

It sounds like this is not your first rodeo, but my other strict rule is packing light with 1 bag per person (a backpack). I rarely unpack the bag fully. Dopp bag comes out as do a change of clothes. Everything else stays in. This makes early checkouts a breeze.

If you embrace this style of travel, 3 hours of logistics is not really a big deal if it places you in the heart of your destination and you can spend the rest of the day on foot. Eating a meal, booking your museum reservations, trip planning, journaling, messaging loved ones, or whatever on the train will also help you reclaim some of your time. You will need to do these things anyway,

You may know this, but just in case: taxis between the airports and Paris (in either direction) have a fixed rate. So from CDG to Gare St Lazare, you will pay 55€ (it's nice to know you don't have to worry about the meter running up even if you were to get stuck in traffic).

Be sure to follow the signs to the official taxi rank at the airport and don't get lured away by someone who approaches you in the terminal offering an "official" taxi.

55€ covers up to four people and their luggage to the Right Bank.

@PNW Patrick I wish I could pack lighter, I really do. I have several good reasons (need certain liquid toiletries and many medications/medication paraphernalia) and bad reasons (it's just who I am) and medium reasons (we have sweated through European summer vacations before. The clothes are mostly not re-wearable, there's only so much you can handwash, it doesn't dry in time to repack, laundry is often expensive and/or impractical). It is only in my best interest to pack lighter. We have had trouble getting on and off trains, stashing luggage appropriately, etc. It has always worked out, but my 13 year old is not super strong yet, and I am not very strong at all, nor am I supposed to lift heavy things. Each trip I try to get a little better, and each trip, I put my toiletries and some shoes (I don't overpack shoes) in the huge suitcase and see that it is practically half full. I do have packing cubes, compression, cubes, etc., etc., etc.

I will definitely be checking to see how far/long the travel is between destinations. This summer we flew from BCE to NCE, did TGV to Avignon (not bad at all) and then TGV to Paris (again, not bad at all). We enjoyed the train rides, and I definitely spent some time on the trains as you describe. I'm assuming some distances here are farther and/or not TGV, so I have to figure it out. I have gotten a ton of nice advice.

Like you, I always always take a taxi to and from the airport, to the long-distance train station, from the train station to the hotel, etc. Local trains/metros are not good for big heavy suitcases, nor are the stations. It just does not work for me whatsoever. I just repurpose the money I would have spent on renting and parking and fueling a car. Once we are in our destination, we are up for local metros, busses, and lots of walking. Sometimes I am hot and tired enough that I'd happily pay for a taxi, but they are non-existent, so we just deal.

I always start my (very long) trips with 6 lb. worth of supplements, so I understand that sometimes you just need stuff. But I wonder whether you've measured your usage of all those toiletries so you can decant just the right amount into smaller bottles. It doesn't seem as if you'd need such a large volume for a relatively short trip. For example, I've found that a travel-size solid anti-perspirant lasts me almost 6 weeks when used once a day, and 1 ounce of solid hair conditioner lasts 1 month even though I also wash my hair every day.

I have taken all of your advice and revised my plans ... hopefully someone is still here, or I can start a new post. How does this look? Particularly interested in whether I am allocating my extra days wisely:

Night 1/2/3 - Normandy
Night 4 - travel in morning/early afternoon to Mont St. Michel,. I'm worried this is too long in MSM, but I do want to spend the night. Depending on the train schedule, maybe we can spend some extra time in Normandy in the morning. It's possible I am too hung up on this and should save myself the hotel change ... not sure where I would put the extra night in that case.
Night 5/6/7 - Brittany: Rennes/St. Malo/Dinan, etc.

Night 8/9/10 - Loire (three full days - too long? If so, where does the extra night go? Burgundy because of the day trips?)
Night 11/12/13 - Burgundy — including a day trip to Lyon. Beaune and Dijon
Night 14 - 1h40 to Gare de Lyon Paris, hopefully we can go very early, find a storage facility near our plans for the day in Paris, then taxi to airport hotel. I'd be happy just walking around, seeing the Opera Garnier (which I somehow keep missing) and having a long fancy lunch.

Others will be able to help more, but I want to warn you that Lyon is a large city with a lot of interesting sights. One daytrip there from Beaune (1-1/2 hr. away or longer) or Dijon (about 2 hr. away) wouldn't be enough for me. I definitely wouldn't want to daytrip there twice because of the cost; the roundtrip fare from Dijon appears to be a painful 63 euros, which surprised me. Beaune-Lyon looks like 54 euros roundtrip.

I liked both Dijon and Beaune but (between those two) I'd choose to base in Dijon. It just seemed to have more sights.

TravelChildMom,
Your new itinerary looks much better. Just a reminder though...don't forget travel time. For example, night 7 in Brittany, etc. means moving to Loire Valley on day 8, therefore day 8 is not a full day in the Loire. Day 9 and 10 are, so not three full days. Day 11 is a travel day, so only a partial day in Burgundy. As long as you allow for time to check out of your lodgings, get yourself to your new place, and check in to new lodgings, and don't count that day as a full day to sightsee, etc., you will be good. And day 13, from Lyon to Paris, you are right to try for an early start for Paris to give you as much time in the city as possible. A day trip to Reims or Giverny , on day 14, means you only have a partial day in Paris on day 13. If you are good with that, then go for it. By the way, acraven's points about the Burgundy/Lyon section of your trip are good ones. It's the time spent travelling that can be a problem and diminish your experience in that area.

You will have a great trip, and what fun to share this with your teenager!
Bon voyage,
Judy

@acraven I could spend a night in Lyon (originally two nights was my plan), but it is a lot of switching around and maybe not enough time in various places. I'm not sure which region to take a night from, or maybe if I am better off just skipping Lyon this time. The main reason I want to go is for the food and the Roman ruins. But we saw a LOOOOOOOOT of Roman ruins last year, so it wouldn't be the biggest loss on that front.

@Judy we would only have one (partial) day in Paris, and I probably would not do a day trip. We would travel to Paris on the morning of night 14. So we would have that night in Paris and fly home the next day. As I put in my new itinerary, we would just store luggage somewhere (hopefully that is a safe thing to do, it makes me nervous, but certainly not enough time to go all the way to CDG just to drop off bags and then back to the city), hang around in the central city, have lunch, etc., go to CDG and then leave the next morning. Day 13 (and the night) would be entirely spent in Burgundy or Lyon.

Thumbs up. I agree that it looks a lot more manageable this way.

Do spend the night on MSM if you can. The crowds were a bit oppressive when we were there midday in summer. If the streets are really jammed, you can escape to the ramparts where there are fewer people. Regardless, it empties in the evening and is a lot more enjoyable to explore then. It takes on a very surreal quality.

I think arriving earlier in the day is fine. I do not think you will be bored. If you arrive by train in Pontorson you have the option of eating there before you venture in. The food choices on the island are fine if you would rather get settled.

I might suggest exploring the tidal flats or views from the fields during peak craziness. Take one of the later tours of the abbey, then roam the island freely in the evening.

MSM was a highlight for our kids. I am sure you will have a great stay.

@PNW Patrick. Thanks -- now my concern is that by removing Lyon, I have made it hard to get from Loire to Burgundy. I might need to stop overnight in Lyon just to make the travel reasonable, in which case, that night needs to come from somewhere. The obvious candidate is MSM. I could take a night away from Loire or Burgundy, but then that increases the number of hotel switches ... this is hard!

Hi all -- I have updated substantially ... I am going to drive. I just don't think I can reasonably see the things I want to see without driving. So, here is the new plan. Would love advice on where to put the extra day. The only reason I have it slotted in right now for the Loire Valley or Burgundy is because I already booked hotels for nights 1-6 ... but they can be changed, so open to ideas on where to slot it. I was thinking it should be somewhere with the longest drive, or else the most pleasant place to stay.

The other option is to spend a night in Paris proper, which always works ... OR break up a long drive (like between Mont St Michel and Amboise) with a night somewhere else.

Night 1 - land in Paris, train to Bayeux
Night 2-3 - pick up car, stay in Bayeux, D-day tour, explore Normandy/Honfleur, etc.
Night 4-5 - St. Malo, explore Brittany
Night 6 - Mont St. Michel
Night 7-9 or 10 - Amboise/Loire Valley
Night 10 or 11-13 - Dijon or Beaune/Burgundy
Night 14 - CDG