Credit cards and PINs

We're returning to France this summer for the first time in several years, and will be taking our checking account Debit card (which has always required our P.I.N.), along with our Chip and Signature Credit card (which has a P.I.N., but we never use it that way). Although Europeans - and most of the world outside of the USA - use Chip and P.I.N. Credit cards, we've been able to present our Credit cards to a live person (clerk, attendant, waiter, etc.) and get our transactions processed the past 2 years in Italy, Spain, and Scotland, without needing a P.I.N. Otherwise, we've had cash out of our checking account that we obtained from an ATM, using the Debit card plus P.I.N.

We've avoided using the P.I.N. and our Credit card because any transactions that would include the P.I.N. would have been treated as "cash advances," which get charged finance charges immediately, as opposed to "credit purchases" that we sign for, which don't start getting charged finance charges until after one billing cycle, and we try to pay off our balance before those charges are assessed.

The one or two times we've encountered someone unfamiliar with processing a Chip and Signature Credit card, we mentioned that we needed to sign for the purchase, rather than typing in a P.I.N., and they got a colleague to help them finish ringing up the sale, no P.I.N. necessary.

Using the PIN with a true Chip and PIN card will not incur cash advance fees. It works just like a standard credit card transaction, which it is.

The cash advance fees are added when you use a PIN with a Chip and Signature card to withdraw cash fron an ATM.

We have both kinds of cards (C&P and C&S). We have used the true Chip and Pin card in The UK, Italy, Australia and New Zealand without any difficulty whatsoever. However, we prefer to use the Chip and Sign card whenever possible because those cards earn miles and the C&P card does not.

We found the true chip and PIN card most useful in the UK at Saintsbury grocery stores and Boots the Chemist, where they have self checkout. Those machines want a PIN. If you have a swipe card or Chip and Signature, you have to call for a clerk to complete the checkout.

With the signature card, In most cases, when the clerk hands you the little machine to insert your card, you simply hit Enter when it asks for the PIN. Then it will spit out a receipt for your signature. In some cases we had to ask the clerk to set the machine to do that.

We don't recommend Travelex or any other pre-loaded card that you add cash to, since they charge extra fees and/or don't give you the best exchange rate.

A regular debit card tied to your checking account works to get cash from ATMs all over Europe (especially those that display the Visa, MasterCard, Plus, or Cirrus logos). I'm sure that I did recently use my non-chip credit card for some hotels or other transactions in Paris, when working with a live sales rep, not an automated machine. But I also did use cash more often, getting it from ATMs, as usual.

For travelers who haven't left yet, read more at http://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money. It's not a bad idea to get a PIN for your credit card, since that may make it easier to use in more places, but don't use a credit card for a cash advance from an ATM.

This is all very helpful, thank you everyone.

I was able to use my bank debit card tonight, no chip, to get Euros from ATM.

I've tried telling clerks in store I need to sign, but they don't always understand English very well. Didn't try to hit enter when machine asked for pin, will try that.

Appreciate all of your very helpful replies.

Merci!

You aren't very clear on the type of card you have.

Is it the standard older card with just a magnetic strip that is swiped and then you sign? If so, just about any person-to-person exchange will still work for you. They must swipe the card and then a receipt with spit out for you to sign. If communication is an issue, just say "no PIN" and they will almost always understand you.

If it is a newer card with a chip in it and you insert your card into a slot, then you also just tell them "no PIN" and they will hit a button to spit out the receipt. If the bank didn't give you a PIN, it probably doesn't use a PIN as a validation method anyway. Your chip card will also have a magnetic strip that you can have swiped the old fashioned way.

The only time a card without the PIN won't work is in automated machines.

It is a chip card, just don't know pin. Didn't know about the sign option. All good now.

Thank you all.

I recently used my Andrews FCU credit card all over France and Switzerland and was looking forward to using the PIN but in each instance, when they had me swipe the card in the little handheld card reader, it spit out a receipt to sign.

Depends how the card has been programmed.

Always be prepared for all eventualities. Belts and suspenders, travelers.

We have never had to use a pin with our credit cards which are magnetic strip and have no problems in major city using them. They don't work in most machines. The problem is the US obsolete banking system and slow move to chip and pin cards. Chip and signature are worthless -- no more useful than magnetic strip cards.

When I first went to italy a few years ago I got a capital one credit card because it doesn't have any currency conversion charges. The card worked well for 2 trips as a swipe and sign card even in self serve gas stations. I'm going to france this year so I requested and got a chip card. I had to ask on two occasions to get the information that to get my pin number (they all have them) I had to request that it be sent to me via mail. I now have a chip and pin card that should work everywhere. Once you get the pin number in the mail, you can change it online if you wish.

The problem is the US obsolete banking system and slow move to chip and pin cards. Chip and signature are worthless -- no more useful than magnetic strip cards.

It's not that the US banking system is obsolete, rather that the switch took cooperation and huge investments from banks and retailers and there was little public or political pressure to do it until recently.

A chip & sig card actually can be useful, much more so than a magnetic strip card. Staff are more used to chip cards and generally will insert each card into the slot. If you have a strip card you have to constantly tell them to swipe it. And some chip & sig cards will work in automated machines - if there is an automatic validation for smaller purchases. The cards are also more secure than a magnetic strip card.

"It's not that the US banking system is obsolete, rather that the switch took cooperation and huge investments from banks and retailers and there was little public or political pressure to do it until recently."

We didn't really get any notification of the change to C&P or any choice in the matter, so there wasn't much chance for any public discourse on it. The banks here just advertised a "new and improved system" and then implemented the C&P technology without any fanfare. For consumers new cards were issued as previous cards expired, unless the customer requested a new card early (as I did). The roll-out of new POS terminals took awhile, as in some cases the merchants (especially larger ones with multiple stores) had to reconfigure their in-house data systems. The smaller "Mom & Pop" operations had the C&P terminals up and running very quickly.

First, to allay some fears, your magnetic strip debit/credit card tied to your checking account will work fine for cash withdrawals from an ATM all over France and Europe with no issues (outside of normal precautions)

Second, a Credit Card with only a magnetic strip will also work fine most places, the exception being kiosks for tickets, gas pumps and some POS devices.

Third, most credit cards with a chip issued in the US are Chip and Signature, as opposed to Chip and PIN, they work in the portable terminal found in shops and restaurants, but spit out a slip for signature vs entering a pin.

If you do have a true Chip and Pin, depending on the CVM (Credit Validation Method) of your card and the preferences of the terminal, you will likely be prompted to sign a slip as opposed to enter your PIN.

If you received your card with no pin set up or prompted to set up a pin before use, you do not have a Chip and Pin. You may have a PIN for a credit card, but it may just be for Cash advance, not for transactions.

Except for automated terminals (Kiosks, Tickets, Gas, Tolls) if a business with people tell you they cannot process your transaction with no pin...they are misleading you. They can, it may take a different terminal at worst, but usually the same one, but from their standpoint, by accepting a signature they are accepting a fraud risk, since the CC companies do hold them liable for fraud (in the US it is not the case) so they may resist doing the transaction...unless the sale is appealing.

Finally...Travelex...just my opinion...but avoid that option at all costs.

I can confirm, best to know your pin for your chip credit card.

1) yes, your debit card without chip will work in any ATM. And I'm able to transfer funds between accounts!, online, to get cash from savings into checking for withdrawal extra funds. Whew!
2) with chip card and not knowing pin, can't charge. Some can, one restaurant, no problem, signed. Nice shoe store in good neighborhood with clerk who spoke excellent English... He got what I was explaining, slid card down side for a signature, but wouldn't work. This is my experience today/this week in Paris. And my hotel understood the issue, familiar with it, could run card without my knowing pin.
3) not happy with Travelex. They assured me would be easy to recharge card online. My bank is a major one--BBT, they don't play nice with Travelex and won't let me reload card. I still liked that I could load Travelex at home with Euros and I thought the exchange was good. One time charge of either $5.95 or $9.95 to get card, another low fee for transaction. Customer service is great. Interested to hear from others about their experiences with Travelex.
4). Lesson learned--have cash on hand and know your pins for chip cards.

Thank you all for replies.

He got what I was explaining, slid card down side for a signature, but wouldn't work.

Why would he slide/swipe the card if it has a chip? Perhaps that was the issue (although in theory it would work that way too). A chip card is activated by inserting it into the reader, not swiping it the old way. Doesn't matter if the validation is signature or PIN, it is still inserted into the slot. If signature, the machine will either automatically spit out a receipt to sign or the clerk pushes a button (or hits enter without the PIN) and the receipt spits out to sign. It sounds like it was user error on the part of the clerk, not a problem with the card.

He inserted card, it asked for a PIN which I don't know. Remembered some told me that if they slide on side, I could sign, that didn't work either. He understood English, said this never happened before. I kept asking if I could just sign and he said no and explained how it was more secure with a pin. He was so nice. I just paid in cash.

I still say - and Rick confirms this - all chip credit cards have a pin. You just need to be persistent to get the bank to send you the number. sue

Yes, I agree, all chip cards can have pins, you can ask your bank for them. I even have the PINS for some, the bank sends them separate from the cards. I always filed away these PIN numbers. I figured they were only if I wanted a cash advance, never thought I would need to use them in Europe or on overseas travel. I was surprised in Paris to have this issue. My hotel was fine to swipe my card and let me sign for my bill without a PIN. But smaller stores and bistros, wanted the PIN. I think there is a way to bypass the PIN, but not all merchants might agree.

Once I was in Paris, I couldn't get my PIN. My bank was willing to send me a new card and PIN, but insisted they had to deactivate my current card. They would send this to my home address back in the States, or for a charge, would three-day air express it to me at my hotel. I had my phone de-activated as I didn't want to pay for international calls or arrange for that for the one week in Paris. Maybe if I had the phone service, I could have worked something out with my bank to get the PIN numbers.

So I learned. Others might not have the same experience I did or know how to work around it, but this was my first time and I wasn't very enlightened. Appreciate everyone's responses.

Received my new chip and signature Southwest Chase card one week before travel to Provence. Wasted a good hour on the phone trying to request a pin before the person on the phone at Chase leveled with me and said, "you don't want to use a pin with this, the pin is only for cash advances, and they are expensive". So we took it along primarily b/c it incurs no foreign transaction fees, and discovered it worked at most (but not all) highway toll (peage) stations and all other vendors, from museums to bistrots to small shops, without a hitch: you just need to sign a receipt. ATM debit cards worked easily at bank kiosks when you want a supply of euros.

I'm in France right now and my supposed chip&pin card (I set it before I left) and our debit cards (also with pins) won't work in many of the machines, including the metro and the toll booths. I think our version of a chip/pin is different than the technology here. But our cards work fine if there's an individual that runs it through the reader and we sign for it (most wait staff know to bring the pen for any U.S. Card).

Becky,

"I'm in France right now and my supposed chip&pin card (I set it before I left) and our debit cards (also with pins) won't work in many of the machines, including the metro and the toll booths."

It sounds like you may in fact have Chip & Signature cards rather than Chip & PIN. It's not surprising that your debit cards wouldn't work for purchases, as not all financial institutions have established data links for that sort of thing.

Just returned from traveling all over France and had no problem with chip cards. We put it into the reader and then it just spit out a receipt for signature. We never needed a pin except to get cash from an ATM with a debit card. All that worry for nothing! But you do need a chip on the card.

I don't know if this is the case for everybody else, but when I called Chase about my chip-and-signature card they told me that the PIN I was requesting was only for cash withdrawals from an ATM and that if I was asked for a PIN at a point of sale I should just enter any four random numbers or hit "cancel". This would apparently cause one of two things to happen. Either the purchase would be approved or a signature slip would be printed. I was told that since there is no PIN associated with my card for purchases, that when the kiosk contacted Chase for verification of my gibberish PIN that I had entered it would ignore the request and approve my purchase since Chase doesn't require a PIN for completion of purchases with their US credit cards. Now, whether this is in fact true, or a bunch of baloney from an agent at Chase that didn't know what he was talking about, I have no idea. Just throwing it out there for the rabble.

Heading to France in ~ two weeks...

I just called Chase regarding my Marriott Visa. Agent said the US doesn't use the Chip w/PIN technology as yet. I asked if I could get a PIN anyway. He said "sure, but I have to let you know that if you make a charge and use the PIN, Chase would consider the transaction a cash advance."

After reading all these posts, I'm not sure what to expect. Luckily they have a PIN request system that you can access by phone. I will likely establish one just to be safe. Hopefully I will never need to use it.

We will be in France starting June 7. We have Bank of America cards with chips ( 2 separate accounts). Has anyone had experience with them? I did request and receive a pin for my account, but husband has not. Does anyone know of these BOA cards are chip and pin or if they are chip and signature?

I have Bank of America chip and sign cards. The pin is for cash advances only not purchases. We signed everytime we used them. We didn't do anything special, the card reader spit out a slip to sign.

We had no problem using any of our cards, even those without chips when purchasing stuff, paying hotels bills, restaurants etc... Our debit cards do not have chips, they worked fine in all ATM's and for purchases.
We did have a problem using our chip and sign in ticket machines, gas pumps and some toll booths.

It is a rare financial institution that will allow you to get a cash advance on your credit card without imposing stiff interest charges. On my two chip-and-pin credit cards (Canada) the interest on this "loan" will be around 19 per cent, starting the moment the machine coughs up the cash. Some banks charge on the entire balance owing, not just the cash received. You pay off your monthly bill, probably in shock, and then next month find still more interest charged for the period between the statement and your payment. It is one of the worst ways to get cash, surpassed only by those payday-cheque-cashing joints and a loan shark with a baseball bat.
I remain convinced that currency withdrawn from an ATM, a large amount, is the cheapest cash exchange. Spend the bills; forget the plastic. Most, not all, credit cards impose a foreign exchange fee for purchases and ATM/debit card purchases are far less common than in North America.

I have a BOA chip and signature card, which I brought to France on our recent trip as a backup. But I never used it, instead sticking with my Andrews FCU chip and pin/signature. It worked as a chip and signature (or sometimes not even a signature) at attended machines, but worked with a PIN at unattended gas stations. The only place it didn't work was at toll booths, and I eventually stopped trying. Neither the BOA card nor the Andrews card have any foreign transaction fee.

I have a BOA chip and signature card, which I brought to France on our recent trip as a backup. But I never used it, instead sticking with my Andrews FCU chip and pin/signature. It worked as a chip and signature (or sometimes not even a signature) at attended machines, but worked with a PIN at unattended gas stations. The only place it didn't work was at toll booths, and I eventually stopped trying. Neither the BOA card nor the Andrews card have any foreign transaction fee.

"We've avoided using the P.I.N. and our Credit card because any transactions that would include the P.I.N. would have been treated as "cash advances,"

This is only true if you use your credit card in an ATM, not for purchases.

Then there are times, as at an unattended Italian gasoline pump, where even entering the P.I.N, didn't work with our Chase Chip+Signature card, so attempting to use the P.I.N. has been avoided regardless. We recently were sent a replacement Chase card for a different account (one that charges foreign transaction fees, so it won't be going to France) with a different number than the card it replaced, plus a much-touted "improved security of chip technology," yet it was still clearly identified in the accompanying literature as a Chip & Signature card. Presumably this is Chase's way to get Chip cards out there in everyone's hands, and maybe the P.I.N. part will be coming not too much later. In the meantime, signing for our purchases isn't a hassle. .

I recently received a 'chip & sig' card from Cap. One; also called and requested the same from Citibank. I asked questions here and also googled some info on these cards vs the Chip & PIN cards. One article I read said that the American credit card companies went with Chip & Sig. cards because they didn't think Americans could remember 'one more thing'. I expect it really has something to do with the new equipment businesses will need to get vs. consumer usage. But it did sound like all cards are supposed to have chips by the end of 2015 and if retailers don't have a chip enabled reader they have less fraud coverage. I'm hoping my new Cap One card works but I'll have the ATM card and some pre-purchased Euros with me just in case.