Clean slate

Congrats on finding a good deal on airfare! That has to feel good.
I have found that there are some well rated flats available through booking.com when traveling around the countryside in France that are also quite reasonably priced. The ability to do your own cooking, at least part of the time, can help with the budget aspects and most come with free parking.

Oh, Carol, it's such a relief! We wondered about the round trip to/from CDG instead of an open jaw, but we have until 8 pm tonight to change the flight for no charge.

Should we reconsider and do an open jaw flight? We could get it for about the same cost as our current flight.

You should employ all the services for finding accommodation, gites.com, AirBnB, booking, etc. With a car, you can stay anywhere that suits your needs and budget. Perhaps a winery stay. Sleep in chateaux. Make the stay part of the experience, not just a place to sleep.
One thing to think about is how to get from Loire to Alsace and whether renting the car on arrival (and driving with jet lag if you're likely to be affected) is a good choice. Certainly it makes economic sense to rent a car at CDG and return it there. I found this article about Troyes, the "southern capital of Champagne" and a possible midway stop for a day or two between your two major destinations.
https://www.decanter.com/wine/troyes-a-wine-lovers-guide-559916/

G3rryCee,

Yes, from my previous thread, we decided to train someplace first from CDG, no driving the first day for us :)

As soon as I have an itinerary pinned down I'll look for lodgings, I appreciate the sites you've mentioned.

Actually, right this minute I'm sort of panicking and wondering if we should have made an open jaw flight. We could go into Marseilles for about the same cost.

Should I really rethink the open jaw?

I don't see how Marseille serves you. An airport that is closer to one of your destinations, maybe.

Using open jaw/multi-city flights often save you a day of travel and an overnight in a city you’ve already visited. I like to get to start my trip at the farthest point, and work my way back to the airport that makes the return flight as easy as possible.

If your itinerary suits starting in Marseille and ending in Paris, the schedules are agreeable, and the price is the same, I would do the open jaw. But I would also look at how easy it would be to take a train directly from CDG to wherever you want to start your trip. It may be possible to get there faster by train.

I was just reading about how many people like to do an open jaw in France so that they can see the south and work their way up north and I started to panic!!

It was just so nice to get the alert on the non-stop round trip to/from CDG. It seems like a very civilized way to start and end a trip. We've never had the luxury of a non-stop on any of our trips other than inside the US.

Our current flight is not changeable after 24 hours, so we hope to make the right decision and either keep it or change to an open jaw with no real itinerary in mind:)

Will you have a car for the entire trip?
Because you might want to take the TGV trains to base cities such as St. Pierre-des-Corps near Amboise for the Loire Valley. Paris to St. Pierre-des-Corps takes just 1-hour by TGV. Tours itself is 6 minutes away by train. Then Paris to Strasbourg ( 1:45 by TGV) for the Alsace-Lorraine. And Paris to Marseille is a TGV line. Marseille to Paris is a 8 to 9-hour drive involving toll highways. It takes just 3 hours by TGV train . There are also many other cities in the TGV network throughout France.

The reason to take a look at the TGV trains is that you have so much lead time in planning the trip, you can buy TGV tickets online for as little as €25 each to get to these cities if you buy them when they first go on sale 4 months in advance of the train’s departure date. This will save you lots of money on gas ( now about $8 per gallon in France). and freeway tolls and also save you hours and hours of time. The least expensive “Prem’s” tickets go up for sale 4 months prior to the train’s departure date on the SNCF website.

You then could pick up a car in Tours for the Loire Valley and go to Chenonceaux, Cheverny, Chambord and Langeais ( to name just a few). From Strasbourg in the Alsace-Lorraine you could go to the rural towns like Ribeauville, Riquewihr, Obernai, Barr and Kaysersberg more easily.
I use www.AutoEurope.com as my go-to car rental source. They broker car rentals and discount the price for all the big car rental companies.

You also might really enjoy Beaune and Dijon in the Burgundy wine country. They are about 1:30 from Paris by TGV. If you go there you could swap out Marseille for Beaune,

I’ve rented a car in Amboise for the Loire and went to Strasbourg and just took buses and trains for Alsace-Lorraine. Both worked well.

Have a great trip!

Thanks so much for the feedback so far!

After my initial panic episode about our RT flight purchase, we talked about it and decided that we'll stick with it. It's cheaper for us and will be a much more relaxed way of travel than we're used to when we go to far away places :)

Now to think about some of the suggestions.....

Please keep posting suggestions and opinions!

With our new total of 15 nights arriving CDG at 8 am on April 15 and departing for home on April 30 at 12 noon,
what ideas might anyone have as to an initial itinerary?

It looks like gites, budget hotels and possibly B&B's will be our best bet for lodging.

After arriving at CDG, the quickest TGV train transfers will be to either St.Pierre-des-Corps near Amboise for the Loire Valley, and Strasbourg or Colmar for Alsace-Lorraine.
The TGV trains take about 1:45-2hrs. You can get an idea of train schedules and fares from www.TheTrainline.com but you’ll want to buy them at www.SNCF-connect.com. The French train company website can sometimes be difficult to use.

You likely will be jet lagged on arrival, so traveling another 2 hours should be more manageable than the 4 hours it takes to reach Marseille.

The TGV train system is a hub-and-spoke design with Paris being the central hub. So, you usually need to return to Paris by train from Strasbourg or St. Pierre-des-Corps in order to go to the next city. This still will save you a lot of money if you buy your Prem’s TGV tix 4 months in advance ( ie buy on December 17 for an April 17 train) Figure at least €50 roundtrip for each city you take a TGV train to).

What you might want to do is 5 nights in the Alsace-Lorraine, 5 nights in the Loire Valley and 5 nights in Marseille. As wine aficionados, I think you would love Beaune or Dijon and TGV trains go to both those towns from Paris.

For car rentals, AutoEurope works with big car rental agencies like (Hertz, Avis, Sixt, Budget etc.) in the cities of Tours ( 6 minutes by train from St. Pierre-des-Corps) and Strasbourg or Colmar in the Alsace-Lorraine.

For accommodations—unless you want to stay in an edge-of-town campground—the best budget deals are double rooms sometimes available in hostels, the French version of B&B’s, “Chambres-des-hotes,” and Gites. Check www.Trivago.com
You will not usually find the best deals on sites such as Booking.com because those sites charge the listing property a 20% commission from the listed price we see online. For the best deals, make refundable reservations as far in advance as you can for the best deals. Nonrefundable reservations may be a bit cheaper, but the risk of having to cancel for some unforeseen reason is just not worth the risk.

I would look at staying in Tours or Amboise in the Loire Valley with or without a car; Ribeauville, Eguisheim, Barr or Kaysersberg with a car in the Alsace-Lorraine; and Beaune with or without a car in the Burgundy region.

I can’t help with Marseille as I have no experience being there.

For some reason, it is not allowing me to reply with an itinerary idea. Am I doing something wrong??

Kenko, That was a very helpful post :) I'm not sure yet if we would want to do the train for the major travel to/from and rent cars locally or not. It's certainly something to think about! The train would alleviate the hassle of directions, tolls, traffic, etc. but, I wonder if the hassle of renting and turning in a different car 3-4 times during the trip would be worth it?

Renting a car for the entire trip is the alternative idea. My husband drove for our 2 weeks in Ireland and did ok. Since France drives on the right side of the road, it would be more familiar to us and not quite as stressful (fingers crossed)?

Hopefully this will post, I'm having trouble with that :(

I'll try this way to post, it's not as easy to read but maybe it will work...

What about 1 night in Tours after train CDC-St. Pierre Des Corps, pick up car the next morning, 3 nights in the Loire Valley, 1 night in Sancerre, 3 nights in Burgundy area, 3 nights in the Alsace region, 2 nights in Nancy, 2 nights in Champagne region dropping the car off the last night. Taking the train from Reims to Paris and spending the last night in Paris. The next morning taking the RER to CDG for our 12 noon flight home.

Too much changing lodging? Too rushed? What would you change?

Joby, here's your revised itinerary:

• train CDG to St. Pierre des Corps, Tours 1nt
• pu rental car in am, Loire Valley 3nt
• Sancerre 1nt
• Burgundy area 3nt
• Alsace region 3nt
• Nancy 2nt
• Champagne region 2nts, drop car off last night
• train Reims to Paris, Paris 1nt
• RER to CDG for noon flight home

Joby, when it's closer to your trip and you have an idea of places to visit, you may want to take a look at the Passion Monuments Subscription.

It's a 1 year pass that gives free admission to chateaux, abbeys and more throughout France. You can buy a single or duo membership.

For your itinerary, among the monuments included are Chateau Azay le Rideau, the Towers at Reims Cathedral, Besançon Cathedral and Clock and more.

It also includes special rates or free admission for some cultural events and discounts at the monuments' gift shops. For example, this summer at Azay le Rideau there will be evening light show and other events to celebrate the Chateau's 500th anniversary.

I purchased a subscription for my April trip to Paris this year and saved money including a huge discount on a concert at Sainte-Chapelle.

Joby,
Your revised itinerary looks good. Be sure to calculate in the travel time in changing cities/towns. For example, Tours to Sancerre 2 1/2-3 1/4 hours; Sancerre to, say, Dijon in Burgundy area about 3 hours; Dijon to, say, Colmar in Alsace 2 1/2 to 3 hours; Colmar to Nancy 2 hours; Nancy to Reims (Champagne area) 2 1/2 hours.
This is just driving time. It doesn't allow for gas/food/comfort stops. It also doesn't allow for hotel check out, getting out of the city, finding your way to your lodgings in the new city and checking in. So I would allow a good half-day on the travel days, moving in the morning and having the afternoon and evening on arrival day in the new city.

But the way, if you make a stop at Besancon between Burgundy region and Alsace, do see the clock there. It is fascinating!
Also, when in Reims/Champagne area, the church in Haurvillers is where Dom Perignon is buried. The discoverer of champagne! It's always nice to do him honors, and a nice drive around the area.

Enjoy your trip!

Oops! Hautvilliers. Excuse the spelling error!

Oops again. Darn autocorrect! Hautvillers!

Thanks for the thoughtful reposting of the itinerary, Jeanm! I'm still not sure why I couldn't post. Also appreciate the info on the Passion Monuments Subscription--we're always on the look out for savings!!

Judy, I was hoping the drives on the different days could also be used to site see as well as get to our next location? Do you think the itinerary is too busy? What suggestions would you have?

I'm so glad I'm getting some suggestions on an itinerary. It's really important I think to get the opinions and suggestions from those who have so much more experience in an area! I can read all day long and think I understand an area, but nothing beats the thoughts of those who have actually been there, done that :)

Joby,
Just a bit out of the way after Sancerre is Fontenay Abbey, a wonderful Cistercian Abbey, well preserved and presented, and with beautiful grounds. It's about 2 1/2 hours from Sancerre to the Abbey (spend an hour looking around here, maybe have a picnic lunch you brought from Sancerre), and then just over an hour to either Beaune or Dijon for your Burgundy stay. (Only a beverage vending machine at the Abbey.)
In the Loire, Chenonceaux is #1 to visit for good reason. It is enchanting. There is quite a bit iof variety among all the chateaux, so I would research them and pick 4, seeing 2 a day. You could also visit some troglodyte sites, tour mushroom caves (around Saumur, so probably out of your way) and see Clos Luce, Da Vinci's home in Amboise. You could see three chateaux a day as well. This is where you need to do some research. You will have 2 full days.
Wherever you stay in Burgundy, do see the Hospice de Beaune, even if you stay somewhere else.
In Reims, see the Cathedral. Almost every French king was crowned there. You can find their names in a couple of places within, and it has beautiful stained glass windows. You can walk from there to the Musee de la Reddition, where the surrender by the Germans in WWII was signed. Also, some of the champagne houses have tours and tastings within the city. And I have already mentioned Hautvillers and Dom Perignon.
Oh, so much to see and enjoy! Have fun!

Joby, I think if you keep the actual expected driving times to under 3ish hours when moving from from hotel to hotel you'll be okay. This would still allow you to make a nice stop for lunch plus visiting a cathedral or chateau or whatever along the way.

You know you! If you're both up and at 'em people who don't mind being on the road in the morning you'll be fine. If you're late risers who need a leisurely breakfast and can't get out the door before noon then you may have to make some choices.

This is our driving time estimates (just using approximate cities for reference):

2.5 hour Tours –Sancerre
3 hours Sancerre–Beaune
3 hours Beaune–Colmar
2 hours Colmar–Nancy
3 hours Nancy–Reims

train from Reims to Paris 45 min

We're usually out of the room by 8-9 am. I like to be out and have as much of the day as possible, my husband is a bit more laid back :)

We would like to visit and taste a fair amount of wineries as well as the chateaux, churches, landscapes and eat some wonderful meals and cheeses (not necessarily gourmet/Michelin type foods) and other interesting sites. We love wines!!

We're still open to suggestions and itinerary ideas! Thanks for the encouragement and tips :)

Joby, one thing to keep in mind during your winery visits is drinking and driving. There are spittoons available that are meant to be used.

And pick up a corkscrew early in your trip, so you can open that bottle you found during the day when you're back at your hotel.

In Alsace these are some of the restaurants I enjoyed in October 2022:

• La Soï, Colmar, the best Tarte Flambée, book ahead
• Restaurant L'Epicurien, Colmar, more upscale
• L'Autrefois, Turckheim, traditional
• Caveau Morakopf, Niedermohrschwihr, typical Alsatian
• Caveau Eguisheim, Eguisheim, outdoor lunch, Alsatian food

Any of your other locations that I have been to would have been pre Covid, so my recommendations wouldn't be helpful.

jeanm, Yes we've talked about the tasting and driving. we, especially my husband, will make use of the un crachoir.

I hadn't thought about the corkscrew :) Thanks for the restaurant recommendations.

If we stick to the above itinerary, I guesstimated it will give us this amount of time in the areas. Is this accurate and/or realistic?

Tours (Loire Valley)-- 3 ½ days

Sancerre – ½ day

Burgundy– 2 ½ days

Alsace (German)– 2 ½ days

Nancy (Art Deco)– ¾ day

Epernay (Champagne)-- 1 ½ days

Paris– ¾ day

Hi and thank you for all of the many posts and suggestions!

I've been pondering your helpful posts, reading and my husband and I talked (he's not into planning at all, but I love to do it. He's going on the trip more for me than himself. I want him to enjoy it too so I'm trying to plan things we'll both enjoy and a few things that he would really enjoy) and we're thinking about keeping our original itinerary with city substitutions.

15 nights itinerary April 14-30 (Original itinerary)

-1 night Tours (train CDG to the TGV station St Pierre de Corps-- pick up rental car in Tours next day)

3 nights Loire Valley area

-1 night Sancerre area

-3 nights Burgundy area

-3 nights Alsace area

-1 night Nancy

-2 nights Champagne area ---drop off car last night

-1 night Paris/ overnight Paris

-last morning RER from Paris to CDG for 12 noon flight

BUT, the above cities are approximate.

For example in the Loire valley some alternative places could be- Amboise, Loches, Chinon--instead of Tours.

Sancerre we could use- Auxerre, Tonnerre or even Avallon if staying north.

Autun or Tournus--instead of Beaune.

If we kept the itinerary as above or with the alternative cities, the kms/time would be estimated at:

TOURS-SANCERRE=200 km or AMBOIS-AUXERRE-263KM–3 HR

SANCERRE-BEAUNE=208 km or AUXERRE-BESANCON-247KM -3 HR

BEAUNE-COLMAR=265 km or BESANCON-RIQUEWIHR-175KM-2.5 HR

COLMAR-NANCY=151 km or RIQUEWIHR-NANCY-133KM–2HR 15 MIN

NANCY-EPERNAY=212 km

EPERNAY-CDG OR PARIS (train)

It does look like a lot of driving :(

1. Loire chateaux that look interesting to us might be (not visiting all of them):

Cheverny (tulips in spring and fully furnished)

Château Chaumont-Sur-Loire (gardens)

Château de Villandry

Château de Chenonceau

Château Azay-Le-Rideau

Château Sully-sur-Loire

1. We'd like to do a wine flight/tasting in each of the 4 areas in the itinerary.

2. We'd like to visit 1 vineyard, which area would you suggest?

3. Churches are on our to visit places---Sancerre has a church that looks lovely, as does Vezelay and Orleans. The cathedral in Strasbourg is a don't miss I think and the clock in Besancon.

4. The caves such as the mushroom cave in the Loire or possibly the Burgundy pre-historic art drawings caves look interesting to visit. We'd like to include 1 cave in our itinerary--either Loire or Burgundy.

5. Alsace--we'd like to visit the smaller picturesque villages such as Riquewhir and Kayserberg, see the cathedral, do at least 1-2 wine flight tastings, maybe see the car museum in Mulhouse...

6. Nancy--would just be a 1 day visit to see the Art Nouveau and the square...

7. For Epernay/Reims--I've read that the tasting boutique of Club Trésors in Reims is a good place for champagnes. We want to visit 1 champagne cave, see the church in Reims, maybe the car museum if we didn't in Mulhouse...

8. I found a couple of car museums and my husband thought 1 of those would be a fun stop. There's one in Reims and one in Mulhouse.

9. I was reading about a day trip into Paris and found the hint to stay at an airport hotel in CDG. So, the Paris day might be something like this:

-train from Champagne area to CDG

-drop bags at CDG hotel

-train into Paris

-spend the day walking and seeing the iconic sites (my husband isn't too interested in touring any of them, he just wants to see them)

-quick traditional french dinner

-nighttime boat cruise on the Seine

-train back to CDG
-overnight CDG hotel

-catch our flight the next day at 12 noon

We'd like to eat lunch OR dinner out each day of the itinerary at small traditional french places. We also want to eat a lot of cheese and desserts :)

Am I making any progress or just spinning my wheels???

Hi,

I've been working diligently on our itinerary and think it may now go like this:

CDG (arriving 8:30 am)- -Saint-Pierre-des-Corps (TRAIN)

Pick up rental car and drive under 1 hour to our Loire lodging

LOIRE VALLEY—4 NIGHTS (mid area between Saint-Pierre-des-Corps and Ambois)

BURGUNDY–4 NIGHTS (mid area maybe around Semur-en-Auxous)

ALSACE 4 NIGHTS (mid area maybe around Colmar)

STRASBOURG?? (leaving early morning) -–PARIS— (TRAIN) (Returning rental car at train station)

PARIS–3 NIGHTS

On the 16th day RER B train to CDG---leaving CDG around 12 noon for flight home

Thoughts on this?

Joby,
This sounds well-planned and allows you to go where you want without rushing around. Happy travels!

Judy,

I sure hope we've planned it well! It was so hard to cut places, but in the end I think this might be a better itinerary (fingers crossed).

Are there any other opinions or suggestions on the basic itinerary?

https://www.ophorus.com/

We took a tour with Ophorus in Alsace and recommend it highly. They offer tours in other areas you plan to go, as well.

DO NOT drink and drive - not even a glass of wine with lunch. Laws are much more strict and the limits lower than in the U.S. Driving sounds like fun - and it can be - but it's always such a relief on a trip where we rent a car when we turn it in and get back on the train.

Thanks, celeste :)

My only suggestion is to amusez-vous bien!

Merci beaucoup, Judy :)

Joby, we too are Loire-bound soon. Maybe consider Loches, Chinon and Chateau Gaillard as part of your itinerary? We are interested in the latter coz it is a decidedly B-league local attraction within Amboise itself. But it is far-less hyped and crowded, yet still offers pleasant gardens in a unique setting surrounded by citrus. Their lunch-cafe is a bonus.
We too will be on the lookout for Chenin Blanc (de Savennieres).

One may take a boat tour up to and through Chenonceau, with or without lunch. Departures from a village just east of Amboise. Just something different. Also, we are told that the town itself of Azay-le-Rideau, as distinct from its famed chateau, is quite pleasant.
Incidentally, no way I would ever skip Beaune. Its combo of historic hospital and attractive weekly market right next door makes for a good visit. But the biggest tip in that town for us: Bistro Bourguignon. One may order A-list wines *by the glass!!! The pinch marks are still there.
Orches was an interesting daytrip from Beaune. If you might want a cold lunch/dry white wine-tasting, then Leflaive winery down in Puligny-Montrachet hamlet is an excellent experience. The actual vineyards connecting Puligny with Meursault are also the quintessential Burgundian hinterland - unmissable.

Bonne chance
I am done. the end

gregglamarsh, Thanks for the reply and suggestions. I've noted them :) I hope you enjoy your trip!!