chateaux and wine-tasting Loire Valley

I liked Chaumont better than Azay le Rideau, but both are nice. Azay le Rideau is next to a darling town. Chaumont has an interesting tie in to Chenonceau and a beautiful setting over the Loire. I know you have more options than you have time for and you can get too much chateau, but what I really liked about Clos Luce was that it was really different from the others. It was interesting to see where DaVinci worked and his inventions. The garden is large, pretty and also contains many inventions. We actually did not go to Chateau Amboise.

You will enjoy dinner at Chateau de Pray.

You asked about lunch options. We actually had a cooler bag and purchased cheese, meat, fruit, and every day purchased a baguette and pastries. We picnicked every day.

We liked Vouvray. The tour at Cave des Producers was interesting in that you get to go into the caves. You do have the options of tasting many wines. We have never really enjoyed sparkling wines, but it was interesting to try different levels of bubbles and sweetness. Be careful, the blood alcohol limit in France is something like .05. We had a picnic after Producers for a break from wine. We also went to Bredif. It was a nice tasting. Both Producers and Bredif were somewhat commercial. We went to a small, family owned winery that was the highlight of Vouvray for us. Jean Claude Aubert. We tasted with the daughter of the owner in what looked like a garage. It was on the family's homesite, and children's toys were a bit scattered. WE LOVED IT. We actually purchased 6 bottles or so for picnics for the rest of our trip. Wine was really nice and quite inexpensive.

EDITED TO ADD. Here is the website for Aubert. We were there 9/2016. The website gives me the impression that its been updated, which in some ways would be sad, but if we are in that area again, we would definitely go back!
https://www.aubertjeanclaudeetdidier.com/en

Chaumont is for the gardens, the insides not so much. Not sure how it qualifies for "fairytale" it's really just another chateau (except for the gardens) Not sure, either, how it's similar to Azay le Rideau. One is a beautiful renaissance chateau set on an island (Azay) the other is a hulking medieval castle updated in the early renaissance. I'd skip Clos Lucé unless you're into theme parks.

Chenonceau to Chambord is at least an hour. Not sure I can really recommend anywhere in Chenonceaux unless you drop a bundle at le Bon Laboreur. I would skip Chambord and spend more time at Cheverny. Chambord is just a big empty old hulk with virtually no interior, and you won't have time to visit the most interesting part, which is the forest surrounding it.

If you're seeing Villandry, it's best paired with Azay. Less time spend driving the same roads. (and it's at least an hour, especially if you're leaving travelling in rush hour. More like 1h20)

All timings are for driving. If you see anything along the way ( Fougeres sur Bievre, for instance) you'll have to add time on or drive straight past

Wineries - Bredif is OK (not to my tastes, really), I would skip the cave de productuers, it's pretty average. Try Chateau Gaudrelle - a private wine tour in English seeing the caves and learning how the wine is made. Email to book, 8€50 for a tour and tasting with local delicacies. I addition try Cave Amboise in Amboise. Yes, it's a wine shop, but it is run by a local producer who makes reds and whites, (we blogged about it https://daysontheclaise.blogspot.com/2018/04/la-cave-amboise.html) in contrast to Villandry which is all Chenon Blanc whites.

Both Producers and Bredif were somewhat commercial. We went to a small, family owned winery that was the highlight of Vouvray for us. Jean Claude Aubert. We tasted with the daughter of the owner in what looked like a garage.

That's the kind of wine tasting I always look for. I'd suggest the OP look for some of those, including the one you mention.

Obviously SImon is an expert as he lives in the Loire (and that's earnest, not intended as sarcasm), but I'm not sure why Clos Luce is like a theme park, unless it is because it can be busy. But all the chateaus can be busy. I mentioned to my husband who for the most part only liked the gardens and the actual construction technique of the various chateaus, if he thought Clos Luce was like a theme park and he didn't feel that way either. I think for someone interested in DaVinci, physics, inventions, etc., it really is quite special. Azay-le-Rideau was under construction when we were there so maybe that's why I liked Chaumont more. (and that's probably why my husband liked Azay-le-Rideau, because he liked seeing the roof structure. To each his own, I guess)

In terms of wine tasting, I've tasted all over the U.S. and many large wineries. I love "hole in the wall" wineries and that's why I liked Claude Aubert. Also, another winery we liked was in Chinon, Pierre & Bertrand Couly. That place was "slicker" with a nice tasting/retail space, but we tasted with the charming owners and ended up purchasing a case of wine to be mailed back to us. I'm always a bit nervous tasting in France after a bad experience in Burgundy. We went to a super elitist winery in Beaune and were treated poorly until the employee realized that we actually knew quite a bit about wine. At that point, it was too late, the magic was spoiled. In the same way, we are hesitant to visit Bordeaux, given we like places that are more approachable.

I think the reason that Clos Lucé always struck me as a theme park is that there isn't much Leonardo there, and a lot of wooden model of Leonardo designs you can see anywhere in the world. Most of the existing building post-dates Leonardo's death, but they do rather over-sell it. Im my mind it would be better if they presented it as a nice 17th century chateau with a good park garden, in a location that Leonardo stayed at for a couple of years.

Simon, interesting. Can't really disagree with your thoughts. Are you saying that they rebuilt the original structure or that the structure has little relationship to where DaVinci actually lived while in Amboise?

I so appreciate all of these suggestions! So helpful. I did some research on websites of chateaux and suggested wineries....still have a few questions.

RE: our first full day (Fri. 9/27):
Thinking of Chateau Amboise, lunch Amboise, then Chaumont sur Loire. Then couple of the newly suggested wineries in/around Vouvray that are different than the ones RS mentions and seem to be a highlight experience for some! Glad to know about these.

They are: Jean Claude Aubert winery (open 2:00pm - 7:00--don't know how long one should spend there) OR Chateau Gaudrelle winery (2:30 - 6:30. Tour at Gaudrelle is about 45 minutes, plus lingering and buying time.) Both are about 45 minutes drive from Chaumont and require reserved times. Wouldn't want to rush either. Is it ridiculous to reserve two timed situations in a row? How much time should we allow for Chaumont prior to the wineries?

Regardless, seems like with Chaumont chateau on the agenda, we should choose either the Jean Claude OR Gaudrelle winery. Or forgo Chaumont chateau and space the two wineries out, and just do Chateau Amboise in the morning and the two wineries in the afternoon. OR (I know this is tedious, sorry) do either Jean Claude or Gaudrelle (not both) and go back to Amboise and do the Cave Amboise winery at our home base. Simon, I am still confused about this: I went to the link you provided for Cave Amboise and it is still not clear to me--is this place either of the ones that RS mentions? (Caveau des Vignerons, or Caves Duhard Wine Tour Experiences)? Something entirely different? Cave Amboise is not the exact name on the link you gave.....

RE: Sat: 9/28: In considering chateaux, per Simon's suggestion, I am thinking of foregoing Chambord in favor of spending more time at Cheverny (and I am pretty determined to spend the entire morning at Chenonceau, getting there a bit before it opens). This would also give us more time at the end of the day to come back to Amboise and relax a bit before our dinner at Chateau du Pray.

I am still at a loss about lunch in Chenonceau.....we are not spendy/languishing lunch eaters (prefer to save more drawn out time eating at dinner) and indeed there seem to be few options for this. In the mid-range, RS's more budget-friendly (?) suggestions of Relais Chenonceaux and Hostel du Roy seem to get quite mixed reviews on Trip Advisor. La Maison des Pages (bakery, a few take-away sandwiches) gets quite good reviews but it seems you will eat at a picnic table by the chateau parking lot. I'm all for picnics but this seems a bit uninspired. Anyone eaten at/from des Pages? Is there nothing in between?

On our departure day (Sun. 9/29), if we got an early start (appreciate your realistic timetable of 1 h. for getting to Villandry, Simon, but shouldn't be rush hour as it is a Sunday), is it realistic to do Azay first ( because it's smaller) and then Villandry, with lunch on-site at V's cafe, before returning our car at St. Pierre train station at 2:00 pm? Our TGV to Paris leaves at 3:02. Or too much to do Azay too?

Finally, on our first day Fri. 9/27: I see lots of restaurant recs that seem wonderful--but not so many cafe or brasserie options. Looking for a more casual option for lunch before we head to Chaumont (if we do that). (FYI--We are thinking of either L'Epicerie, Chez Bruno, or La Fourchette for dinner for the first two nights we are there. The first night we will be jet-lagged).

Wineries: Great input!

We always allow at least 50 minutes for Gaudrelle, but that would easily become 1h15 if we weren't usually heading for the station afterwards. I think two Vouvray winemakers in an afternoon is a surfeit of chenin-blanc wine

It's difficult to know how much time to allow for Chaumont (this goes for any chateau, really). It depends how much into gardens you are. We have had clients who could have spent the whole day there, but other clients who were in and out in under an hour.

Cave Amboise is neither of the wineries you mention: Cave Duhard is good, but a long visit and it's tasting experience rather than learning about the wines. I haven't been to a Cave des Vignerons in the last 6 years or so - you're always in danger of getting a shop assistant and a recital rather than someone who knows about wine at a deeper level.

Azay is a much longer visit that Villandry: typically we spend two hours there, Villandry is between an hour and 90 minutes, depending on the level of client interest. I would visit Azay in the morning, followed by lunch at Coté Cour, and then drive the 15 minutes or so to Villandry.

By restricting yourself to a quick lunch but longer dinner you are creating expense for yourself: Lunch is the main meal of the day, dinner is only ever for special occasions and priced accordingly. In addition, lunches are also more regionally based whereas dinners will be more generically "French" as most local diners will be wanting something less common. Don't disregard the fact that about 90% of workers here eat lunch in a restaurant every working day.

Also - be very careful of planning a military style itinerary. That interesting chateau you are approaching? Can't stop there, have to get to the next place. That view? I'm sure it would be better not seen through the windcreen as we drive through, but that's the breaks... Even when operating commerically we allow at least 20 minutes extra travelling time for clients who ask to stop and look at a village, watermill, view of small chateau or whatever. And if you don't use all of that extra 20 minutes (rare) It just gives you more time at the next chateau.

My final advice would be buy a second guidebook - never rely on just one. The RS books have their good points, but every guidebook has blind spots and crushes: RS has a crush on Amboise, which is a ncie enough town, but there are businesses there definitely taking advantge of the fact that every RS reader thinks it's an amzing destination.

If you are interested in gardens you need to allow more time for Villandry and Chenonceau. We spent more than an hour in Chenonceau's garden and maybe even two hours at Villandry.

I agree with Simon in terms of setting a strict itinerary. I plan my travel more than anyone I know, but I still keep things pretty loose. I also will have just a list of must sees and might make decisions based on the days weather. For example, I'd want to go to Chenonceau and Villandry on nice days since their gardens are so magnificent.

If you are still stuck on lunches, I will just suggest picnics again. It's very French! You can pick up some wonderful cheeses and pastries. Also, if you are getting breakfast at your hotel and then having a nice dinner (like Chateau du Pray) you may not even want a big lunch. Picnics also help keep you more flexible. If you have food with you, then you can take more time to linger somewhere lovely.

Thank you for the additional input Simon and Jules--most helpful! I am re-thinking much of my plan, having been reminded of being careful not to overplan and to be flexible. Have done some maps googling and research into the various chateaux....(For the record, I DO try to devise a "best-case-scenario" itinerary :), but always understand that unforeseen circumstances --weather/travel issues, fatigue/interest issues-- can change things quite a bit.!

I am realizing that I really would like to see both Azay and Villandry, and the last itinerary option I posted was trying to do too much on our departure day and won't allow for that. Also the lunch at Cote Cour (and it sounds worth it!) is not possible if we are to both enjoy it and get to the train station that day, drop off car, etc. So....I've turned my plan on its head a bit. Here's what I'm thinking now:

Day 1 Thurs. 9/26: Arrive Amboise around 7 pm, dinner (recommendation for something good but simple? Jet-lag!) We are very near the Clos Luce.)

Day 2: Fri. 9/27: (This day plan allows for a loop from Azay--Villandry---Vouvray winery--back to Amboise.)

-- Drive to Azay-le-Rideau Rideau, getting there near opening time (9;30 a.m). Tour Azay.
---Lunch at Cote Cour (opens at 12:15 pm......reservations are recommended, but if we are there right when it opens at lunch, will we be okay? If not, picnic)
---Around 2:00 head to Villandry (15 min. drive). Tour chateau and gardens for couple of hours.
---Around 4:30 head to either Chateau Gaudrelle for wine tour (would get a 5:30 or 5:45 tour, open till 6:30) or Jean Claude Aubert (open till 7 pm) .
---Drive (30 -40 min, depending on the winery we choose) back to Amboise (home).
---Dinner (Chez Bruno, La Fourchette, L'Epicerie?? other? what's best?)

Day 3:
---Morning: Chenonceau; Picnic lunch (thank you Jules!) ;
---Afternoon: Cheverny.
---Dinner Chateau du Pray.

Day 4:
---Morning: if weather is nice, Chamount-sur-Loire. Could have a good 2 -3 hours there.
---Lunch Amboise.
---Drive to St. Pierre train station by 1:30 to drop off car @ 2:00
---TGV @ 3:00 to Paris.
----Alternative: bad weather or just want to stay in town: Chateau Amboise, lunch in Amboise.

Hoping this tentative itinerary is more doable/flexible. The chateaux above represent to me the ones that seem most interesting and doable --without venturing too far west from Amboise. Thoughts? I'm totally comfortable giving up Chambord, Chateau Amboise, and Clos Luce even though the latter 2 are at our home base, but would put Chateau Amboise back in the mix on any of the days it makes sense or if weather/energy dictates a change of plans.

Also: wondering if we can pick up good driving maps at the St. Pierre Train station when we rent our car for both the drive to Amboise and for the areas we will be covering? I'm hoping to leave Amboise around 8:30 a.m. our first day (to Azay), which would be before the Amboise TI opens (10:00, which cramps our time a bit).
We will probably use Google GPS on our phone for driving, ( I also have printed out the maps as a back up) but don't know how reliable the reception is. etc. I've heard horror stories about the Garmin or Tom Tom GPS systems that sometimes comes with your rental car, so I'm not banking on those. Hoping to be able to get good maps at St. Pierre before we head to Amboise. Nothing on their website has any info on this.

We've had better luck with GPS than with a map, tho I like both. We currently use my iphone app, maps.me, and love it. It works like GPS (so no data required) you just need to download maps before you leave for home or when you have wifi. When we did use GPS, we use one specifically set up for France. We rented from AutoEurope and they will mail you the GPS in advance of the trip. Its cheaper than renting GPS from the car rental company. That said, we now just use paper maps (I like Michelin) and maps.me.

For picnics, we learned that many boulangeries are actually closed at lunch time, so we make sure we start the day with a baguette in hand to go with what every goodies we already have. If you are not sure you will picnic, get one anyway, they are always 1 euro (unless the price set by the govt, believe it or not, has gone up). So if you don't picnic, snack on it or toss it. Day old baguettes are edible but not nearly as good.

My favorite chateaus so far are Chenonceau and Villandry. Chambord is immense and the view from the rooftop is interesting but I don't think you will miss it. It sounds like a very nice trip!

Thanks again, Jules, for the info. I downloaded maps.me, and after some fiddling around, figured out how to download the Loire Valley area and start to bookmark the various chateaux destinations, our home base, etc. for accessing driving routes when we get there. It will be interesting to compare it to Google maps, which we've used in the past, and see if recommended routes differ. I see that maps.me does have a voice activated option, which I'm not sure google maps does.....? I'm sure we'll have paper maps too, so between them all we should get where we are going!

Once we are in Paris, I plan to use Cityplanner. I've read raves about Cityplanner for large cities, especially for figuring out public transportation options and routes. You can use it for walking too, but I've found Google works fine when on foot ( but NOT so much for the metro, buses, etc,). Cityplanner seems super user-friendly and you can pin all of your desired destinations and sites beforehand from home to easily create routes once you are over there.

I thought Chateau Amboise was much more interesting than Clos de Luce, if it comes to a choice. And certainly convenient. perched above the center of town.

And there are such beautiful views of the Loire from the Chateau d’Amboise grounds!

The app for public transportation is CityMapper.

There is also great signage at least for the chateau throughout the Loire.

Stan and Kim--I haven't decided yet between Chaumont sur Loire and Chateau Amboise on our departure day. We catch a train at St. Pierre at 3:00 and drop off our rental car at 2:00, so really just have the morning and time for a nice lunch before we leave.

I am quite intrigued with Chaumont and its gardens, but it will be a a drive (albeit a pretty short one), taking some extra time. We'd eat lunch on site and head back to Amboise and leave for the train station. I thought I might let the weather dictate (b/c of the main attraction being its gardens).

However, what is appealing about staying put in Amboise is 1) we will not have spent much time there at all (the previous 2 days having early starts and not returning until evening). 2) it's a Sunday, so there is the big market from 8:30 - 1:00 in town, might be fun 3) Amboise castle sounds interesting enough and the view of the town Amboise from above sounds quite lovely 4) it is overall the easier option. Hmmmmm.

Because of a certain tour book writer Amboise on a Sunday tends to be over-full of people from the US who have no idea of some of the idiosyncratic road rules, so if you're driving in Amboise be wary. Particularly on the road leading to the bridge.

It has to be said that people who have never read RS hardly ever visit Amboise. It's pretty low on most people's scale of interest, really.

Simon, what are some of your favorite smaller cities in the Loire?

I'd take Loches, even though the public transport links are not that much better than Amboise, Chinon (ditto) and Amboise in midwinter. North of the Loire Chateau Renault deserves to be better known, but once again really only if you have a car. If you don;t have a car Tours is an excellent base, with amazing old stuff (Roman all the way through to Renaissance) and the cathedral is a wonder. It just doesn't have is an iconic chateau.

I like Amboise, I don't the like the way it has be fetishcised, although it does act as a sacrificial anode - it gets worn away by the footfall, allowing other towns to survive.

"seemed a bit short on tourist crowds"

That's because they were all in Amboise, heaving read an RS guide :)

I forgot Langeias (as many do - I think spelling it stops people suggesting it) It's a really nice quiet little town

Thanks Simon