Upcoming England/Scotland Trip

Can I say, in the nicest possible way, this itinerary is completely insane? It's technically possible, but so crazy busy. But leave that aside for a sec as I know just because I prefer to travel slower, not everyone does...

A few thoughts. Any reason you're not flying direct to Edinburgh then out of Heathrow? You're wasting time arriving in London only to take a train to Edinburgh.

Personally I'd skip Glasgow. Edinburgh itself deserves longer. A Highlands daytrip is busy but possible.

How reliable are trains? Normally OK, but I wouldn't set my watch by them. Significant delays are not likely, but are possible.

Car - don't drive into London, return your car somewhere like Oxford and take the train.

Three night IMHO is nowhere near enough for London... but it's your holiday.

Train tickets- buy them from the operator. Any train operator can sell tickets on any route. The National Rail site is a good starting point. Avoid resellers like Trainline which charge commission.

I'm sure you'll have a great holiday, but seriously consider cutting back. Personally I'd skip both Scotland and Wales, stick with England, perhaps London-Oxford-Cotswolds and give yourself more time to enjoy, rather than take a photo, tick a box and move on.

short connection times on that line (i.e. 7 mins) and potential delays (I read online around 67% of trains are delayed?) have me concerned.

If you are changing at Preston and miss the connection just get on the next train they are every 20 - 30 minutes.

I would drop the Cotswolds for somewhere nicer and less crowded.

How reliable is the Edinburgh to Liverpool train line? Looking to book a Beatles tour in Liverpool, but the short connection times on that line (i.e. 7 mins) and potential delays (I read online around 67% of trains are delayed?) have me concerned.

I live on that line and those figures are total and utter BS. The 7 minute connection times are those between TransPennine trains. There are other trains run by Northern connecting at either Preston or Wigan North Western.

I'm considering a stop at the Mach Loop in Machynlleth, Wales on the drive from Liverpool to Cotswolds for plane spotting. It adds about 2hrs onto the drive, plus however long we'd stay there. Do the planes fly through often or is it a crapshoot? Is it a worthwhile detour?

I have just read up on the Mach Loop. I'm sorry but that does not seem to be to be at all worthwhile. The flying programme is issued at short notice and is highly dependent on weather and other factors. In any event do you know how fast they fly through?
This week just gone and next week there are zero flights. If there were I might expect one or two in the day.
We have them in the Lake District and even with the advance warning of the sound wave they flash through so fast you barely see the aircraft. It isn't what I would vaguely call plane spotting.

Edinburgh to Skye is around 6 hours drive each way (whether by tour bus or self drive), so a day trip is technically possible but it is a total whirlwind on Skye. To be even vaguely worthwhile it needs IMO a base minimum one night on Skye. Trying to get a one night stay on Skye at such short notice will probably be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. The only half way sensible means would be a Rabbies two day tour- where they have to find the hotel for you. With only just over two days in Scotland I am unsure that even that is the most productive use of time.

Also travelling in mid April coincides with Easter- with the school vacation, and rail engineering work. Over Easter weekend for instance no trains are running north of Carlisle into Scotland- bus replacements. That also means East Coast trains will be extra busy.

I agree with the advice you've received so far. I think you are underestimating the distances you are trying to cover and the time it takes to places. I'm also not sure why you want to spend the best part of a day on the train from London to Edinburgh. Much simpler to just fly without even leaving Heathrow airport.

I live on the Isle of Skye. It takes me all day to drive to Edinburgh. It is absolutely mad to try to see both Edinburgh, the Highlands and Skye with the time you have available. A Rabbies tours of the Highlands is probably your best bet. They do one and two day tours. But you will be spending most of the time in the mini bus seeing the scenery as it flashes past.

I also agree that Glasgow and Edinburgh in your limited time doesn't make sense. I'd scrap Glasgow unless you have absolutely compelling reasons to want to go there.

Welcome to the Forums, B, we are happy to help you pull everything together.

I am concerned that in a first visit to the UK, just 2 sightseeing days in London, one of the true wonders of the world, will leave you really panting for more. So much history, even back to Roman times (the large chunks of Roman Wall, the bath, the Mithraic Temple), and all the centuries up to the present day.

You will be trying to fit a gallon into a cup measure and you will have to really cut, cut, cut and decide what few things you will be able to visit or see. Going all over hundreds of miles means you will be looking out windows a lot.

Traffic moves as slowly now as it did in the days of Samuel Pepys in the days of the Great Fire of London (1666).

WAY too busy.
The UK is one of our favorite countries and we have spent about 7 weeks there in the past 12 years. We still haven't seen it all.
Ok you get 3 days in Edinburgh, that's good, but three days in London is not enough.
Also, suggest skipping Glasgow and Liverpool. Yes, there are things to see there, but I would not rate them as high as other places in the UK, example York. That city is amazing.

About the only thing worth doing in Liverpool is a Beatles tour, that is weak compared to other options.

Assuming you're not going to give up the Scotland post of the trip, look at Rabbies tours for the Highlands. As mentioned by others Skye is way too far for a day trip. I love Glasgow but you don't have time for that either based on your schedule.

Stow on the Wold would be my pick in the Cotswolds, it was the prettiest town we visited, however it's getting awfully late to be booking hotels in that region. Hopefully you find something.

Since you're limiting yourself to see the sites by rushing across England and Scotland I'd stay right in London for that portion of your trip and then move to a hotel near the airport that final night.

About the only thing worth doing in Liverpool is a Beatles tour, that is weak compared to other options.

Sorry, but that is absolutely not true. Liverpool is a very cool city with a lot to see and do there. Having said that, I do agree with the others that you are packing way to much into your itinerary. Believe me, I understand the desire to see as much as possible in the time you have, but you don't want to exhaust yourself either.

With regards to your flight home, I would definitely stay at an airport hotel. There are quite a few good hotels at Heathrow, and it pays to know which terminal you will be flying out of. For example, last year I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express located right by Terminal 4, and it was incredibly easy to get to my flight the next morning. You really do not want to be scrambling to find public transportation that early in the morning. Find out which terminal you are flying out of and come back here for advice on an airport hotel.

So here is my advice. As much as I enjoyed my time in Liverpool, I would leave it off. This gives you a bit more time. Your trip will still be rushed, but not as rushed. However, I agree that you really do not have time for the Highlands. Save Scotland for another trip. It definitely deserves it's own schedule. This gives you a taste of three different areas in the UK, and will hopefully whet your appetite for more. I spent almost 6 weeks in England last year, 3 weeks in Scotland the year before, and still have so much more to see.

Day 1 (overnight London): Arrive in LHR late evening from JFK
Day 2 (overnight London): Full day in London
Day 3 (overnight London): Full day in London)
Day 4 (overnight Edinburgh): Depart London for Edinburgh via train in AM; explore Edinburgh
Day 5 (overnight Edinburgh): Explore Edinburgh
Day 6 (overnight Edinburgh): Explore Edinburgh
Day 7 (overnight Cotswolds): Explore Edinburgh; depart for Cotswolds via rental car early PM;
Day 8 (overnight Cotswolds): Explore Cotswolds
Day 9 (overnight Cotswolds): depart for London late AM/early PM; drop off rental car
Day 10 (overnight London): Full day in London; head to airport hotel for last night
Day 11: Depart from LHR for JFK (8:30am flight)

B, I, too, am thinking you are trying to do too much in too little time. It’s a problem I have dealt with myself in our self-planned trips. Everyone is different with their expectations and travel endurance abilities. I think you would be feeling so rushed that your experiences would be compromised and no one likes for that to happen.

Here’s how I would do it, if it were my trip just to scale back but see much of what you want.

Day 1 arrive PM LHR
Day 2 train To Edinburgh, sightsee evening.
Day 3 Edinburgh
Day 4 Day trip to Highlands. Rabbies offers 2 different ones. One includes Oban. They also this year are offering a day trip to Arran, which I have been told has a lot of beautiful Highlands like landscapes.
Day 5 train back to London -sightsee evening
Day 6 London full day
Day 7 London. Do the Beatles London Walks Tour
See Abbey Road, etc
Day 8-9 Two Day (overnight) Cotswolds Tour. An example is this one:
https://www.viator.com/tours/London/2-Day-Cotswolds-Bath-and-Oxford-Small-Group-Tour-from-London/d737-2250LON1
Day 10 London
Day 11 home

Edit: I just read mardee’s plan and she knows so much about getting around the UK independently. That plan looks awesome. I haven’t the nerve yet to rent a car, so my plans are all dependent on public transportation.
Just food for thought. Best wishes to you as you plan!

Day 7 (overnight Cotswolds): Explore Edinburgh; depart for Cotswolds via rental car early PM;

I agree with Mardee's plan but with one significant change on Day 7.

There are Avanti trains down the West Coast Main Line and they go from Edinburgh to London Euston. Avanti route some of those via Birmingham New Street and Birmingham International. Take the train to Birmingham International and then the fast free cable car the short distance to the airport terminal where the car desks are. Then an easy drive to the north Cotswolds via Stratford upon Avon. Driving down the M6 with all its construction and trucks and heavy traffic from Scotland past Manchester and the Northwest isn't what I call fun whereas the views from the train passing near the Lake District and through Cheshire are beautiful. Even as you pass through the Black Country into Birmingham along the canals and old factories is unusual and interesting in an urban landscape sort of way...

my .02

I'd stay in London while you're visiting the city at the end of the trip and move to an airport hotel on the last evening. I found London hotel rates painfully high in early May while I was shopping for lodging last week. I fear April may not be much, if any, better. You can save considerable money on that last night by staying at the airport and make your last morning less hectic. I just head out to the airport around 6 or 7 PM, after a full day of sightseeing in the city.

I use the Premier Inn at T4, which is perfectly nice and one of the least expensive options at Heathrow, but there may be other good choices closer to your departure terminal. Do pay attention to the actual location of the hotel. You can walk from the Premier Inn T4 to the terminal and then use the Underground to change terminals if necessary. Plenty of the airport hotels are a bus ride or taxi ride from the nearest terminal, and that's not something I want to deal with.

You can use booking.com to identify practical options out at Heathrow, but you may save money by booking on the hotel's website. The airport hotels are mostly chain properties, and joining their affinity groups can save some money.

I agree with the others that your itinerary is just too much. Looking at the Scottish segment:

• A day trip to the Highlands involves too many miles to be a choice from Edinburgh. Mileage from Glasgow is somewhat less, but it's still not something I would choose.

• Planning to drive on the wrong side of the road in a scenic area on the second full day in the UK--when you may not yet be fully recovered from jetlag--strikes me as very risky.

• I like the Cotswolds, but unless you plan to do a lot of hiking, I think 1-1/2 days would be long enough in the context of this very short trip. The towns are cute, but I'm not sure there's a lot of value in seeing the 6th, 7th, 8th, etc. Now, if you primarily want to hike, that's an entirely different situation. I just took a one-day van trip from Moreton-in-Marsh and thought it was a great use of a day. It helped that I was already spending multiple nights in nearly Oxford, so I didn't spend a lot of time getting to and from that tour.

There is a lot to see in Liverpool--for me, actually more than in York, but folks who like earlier historical periods should definitely choose York.

You have chosen a few of the destinations most heavily visited by US tourists. That's OK. I've been to all of them and am returning to Edinburgh and London this year. Just be aware of the impact that will have on visitor levels at the most popular sights and on lodging costs.

UK rail fares are among the highest in Europe, per mile, if you buy your tickets late. You can save considerable money with earlier purchase, but you need to be absolutely solid on your timing before you do that. The cheap "Advance" tickets are train and departure-time specific.

The current recommendation is to buy tickets from Scotrail.co.uk. It will identify situations in which buying a ticket in two segments (though you stay on the same train) saves money. This practice is called "split ticketing" and it's perfectly legitimate.

If you're sure the two of you will always be traveling together by train (not one of you staying behind and traveling later in the day for some reason), a Two Together Rail Card can save you money. I haven't used that card, but I think you cannot travel during the morning peak travel period on weekdays, so be sure you understand the restrictions. The card costs 35 GBP and saves you about 1/3 of the cost of each ticket. It seems like a clear winner for you.

Thank you to everyone for the advice - it really helps! My big "must see" points for this trip are London (even if only a three day "sampling" since I plan to return again), Scotland (with Highlands), Cotswolds, and Liverpool (I'm a huge Beatles fan so this is a bucket list item). My focus once solidifying the details for these cities will be "trimming" out the excess and making it as fluid as can be.

• Flying into LHR instead of EDI: The reason for this is because I got a really crazy airfare deal through JetBlue (it was a little over $300 roundtrip from JFK). I took that deal and figured I'd base my trip around it. I have looked into flights from LHR to EDI but I haven't found any 10pm or later (we land in London at 8:30pm, plus need to get our baggage). I've heard the train ride from London to Edinburgh is very scenic - is that true? We'll probably leave early morning (maybe 7am) so that way we get an early start and can enjoy the views. The other option which I'm just now considering is starting the trip in London then heading to Scotland on an early morning flight a few days in, but need to assess that a bit more.

• Train passes: Thanks for suggesting the Two Together rail card. I'm going to look into that.

• Scotland focus: Based on the feedback we may just focus on Edinburgh for two days instead of the half-day trip to Glasgow. Fortunately, since they're close I think we could still decide last minute to go to Glasgow if that was something we wanted to do on a whim. The Highlands tour is definitely something we'd still like to try (I will look into Rabbies - heard good things about them too, thanks for the insight into specific tours). I think it's fair to say that Skye isn't really feasible.

• Liverpool: As mentioned, this is a bucket list item. I'm interested in the Magical Mystery tour (2hrs stopping outside the famous sites), Paul's childhood home, getting a drink at the Cavern Club, and checking out the Royal Albert docks. I heard the city is compact and very doable in a day.

• Car rental: Thanks for the suggestion about getting the rental car in Birmingham, that sounds like it could be a good option. And good insight about dropping off the rental car in Oxford. I was looking at Budget but didn't see any locations in Oxford. They also charge a $60 one-way fee. I've only ever returned to the same location so have never encountered that before. I'll look up other car rental agencies too. What other ones are prominent in the UK - Enterprise?

• Mach Loop: Thinking that the Mach Loop in Wales may not be worthwhile for this trip. From what I've seen online, there are typically lots of photographers perched on the cliffs watching the planes come by, sometimes up to 20 per hour. But I also just saw what isn31c had posted and there were no flights recently. Maybe on a return trip to the UK when I have some more "free time".

• York: It does look really cool based on the pictures I've seen online. I think if I had a chance to add one more place in, it would be York. But I'll probably have to save it for next time.

• Cotswolds: Thanks for the recommendation for Stow on the Wold. I'll have to book something this week. Any specific place you'd recommend? And are they all generally B&B's with breakfast included?

• London: Excited to see Buckingham Palace. Is a tour worth it? And how about the Churchill War Rooms? What other lesser known sites are worth a visit?

Thank you all again.

Buckingham Palace's State Rooms are only open to visitors this year from 10 July to 28 September. Otherwise it will be a much smaller tour of one wing, on occasional dates.

If you buy the Two Together Railcard by next Sunday it will only cost £30 BUT on Monday to Friday it is only valid after 0930.

That is unlikely to suit your schedule where you need to get moving each day.

I very rarely say this but being as I hate short domestic flights, but being very pragmatic if you go to EDI on Day 2 I would overnight at the airport and look to get an early flight next day out of LHR. There are no same day connections that late at night. If you are front ending your schedule with time in London look at an early flight out of Luton to EDI with Easyjet. Luton is closer to central London than LHR and Easyjet are normally around £20 before baggage fees.

Likewise to Liverpool you need to get moving that day. I would take the 0652 out of Edinburgh, change at Preston (Platform 4 to 2 normally, under the subway- 99% of the time I stroll that connection at Preston with acres of time in hand. Without looking up fares the normal cheapest way to do that is an Advance Single EDI to Preston, and an Advance Single Preston to Liv Lime Street.
For information that is a School train for the 14 minutes from Carlisle to Penrith, but especially if it is an 11 car train that isn't a problem. When it is that long wherever my reserved seat is (if I have one) I normally sit in Car U or G for ease of the Preston Change and avoid the kids.
The Beatles tour starts from Albert Dock. The easiest way to get there is to take any Merseyrail train (every few minutes) from Lime Street Low Level two stops to James Street then walk.

I have to strongly disagree with the above. There is enough to see in Liverpool to cover at least 3 days even with the closure of the maritime and slavery museums for a good while. The Walker Art gallery, two very contrasting cathedrals, the museum of Liverpool, all the Beatles stuff, (more than a tour). Many North Americans whose family who emigrated from Europe will likely have passed through there. And plenty more.
For the OP taking half a day to get to Liverpool for half a day’s sightseeing is pointless though.

"I've heard the train ride from London to Edinburgh is very scenic'
It is - as you approach Durham you can see the castle and cathedral, and passing into Scotland from England past Berwick-upon-Tweed the view of the coastline is magnificent. I really enjoy the train, but it is an issue given your limited time frame.

I think Buckingham Palace is going to be off the agenda for you, given your dates. And don't worry about the lesser known sites, you won't even have time to cover a handful of the better known ones... But seriously, consider the Tower of London. The Churchill War Rooms is definitely worth it (prebook), and if wartime history interests you, you may wish to consider the Imperial War Museum as well. Obviously I'd also recommend Westminster Abbey, St Paul's and that's just for starters.

The Churchill War Rooms is in King Charles St - nearby is the Abbey, Houses of Parliament, Horse Guards (and the Guards Museum) and Buckingham Palace, which you can at least walk past. You can also walk past the King's residence at Clarence House and St James's Palace.

They also charge a $60 one-way fee. I've only ever returned to the same location so have never encountered that.

Yes, that's something that you will find, but considering everything, I usually don't mind paying it, as often, it can be just as costly and more inconvenient to return the car to the original location. You might want to check Arnold Clark, which is my favorite car rental agency in the UK. However, I don't believe they have an office in Oxford. The closest would be in Milton Keynes. Enterprise is another good choice, though.

Liverpool: ... I heard the city is compact and very doable in a day.

It is compact and you can see a lot in one day. As I mentioned above, I love Liverpool, and if you really want to see it, then find a way. It's your trip and Liverpool is a wonderful city, especially if you are a Beatles fan. I'm not and I still loved Liverpool.

If you have a chance, visit the Philharmonic bar while you are in Liverpool , which is a spectacular and very opulent pub (definitely check out the men's toilets while you are there—you will be amazed!). The Beatles used to frequent it many decades ago. In 2018, James Corden and Paul McCartney filmed a Carpool Karaoke episode in Liverpool. At the end, they wound up in the Philharmonic pub with Paul performing before a very stunned crowd (if you watch it, the Philharmonic scene starts at 15:30). The whole episode was really moving and a lot of fun to watch.

If you really want to do the Rabbies Highlands tour and see Glasgow, you could consider staying there instead of Edinburgh and just do a day trip to Edinburgh. We didn't spend any time in Glasgow, but took an early morning train from Edinburgh to Glasgow to take the Rabbies tour of the HIghlands from Glasgow, then took the train back to Edinburgh that night. The train from Edinburgh to Glasgow is easy and I don't remember how long it took, but it wasn't a long train ride between the two cities.

I agree with most of the other advice re: too busy of an itinerary. But the first thing that caught my eye was your first flight. You say you have an:

overnight flight...Arrive in LHR late evening from JFK.

How is this possible? The flights that arrive late evening in LHR are daytime flights, departing the U.S. in the morning. I love them because it is much easier to adjust to the time difference this way. But this does not involve an "overnight flight" unless you are flying a red-eye in the U.S. or another part of the world.

I think the OP is saying he arrives in London in PM and then overnight in London not an overnight flight the way I read it. Hopefully he will clarify..

For the OP taking half a day to get to Liverpool for half a day’s sightseeing is pointless though.

He isn't having half a day. That 0652 train from Edinburgh arrives at Liverpool at just after 1015 am- so almost the whole of a day, then almost the whole of the next day (Day 6). What I suggest is spending the whole of Day 6 in Liverpool (now that the diversion into Wales is gone) then renting the car from Liverpool Airport say around 6pm. Live mapping at 4.30pm is showing a 2 hour 48 drive time to Stow on the Wold via the M56, M6, M6 Toll (with this kind of schedule not paying the toll by staying of £9.90 by staying on the M6 Toll feels like false economy to me), M42, M40 and the A429 so that gives a 9pm arrival. Use Norton Canes service area on the Toll road for a restroom stop.

One evening walk I recommend that you won't find in most guide books is taking the last commuter ferry over from Pier Head to Seacombe Ferry Terminal then walk to New Brighton along Wallasey Promenade (aka the Millennium Walkway)- about an hour At several locations you have collections of plaques on the sea wall telling you about wartime shipping losses on the Mersey and in the docks opposite. Very detailed and impressive work. They have been collected together at some time as they were originally each at the exact locations of the relevant losses. About half way along you come to the Ferry Inn (I call the location Liscard, others call it Wallasey and it is at the old Egremont Pier, so you take your pick). That is a pretty good place for your evening meal looking out over the Mersey and the modern Liverpool Container Port at Seaforth.

At the New Brighton end you end at Fort Perch ( a real 1820's fort built to defend the port) and the Perch lighthouse- a rock light. If the tide is out you can walk right out to the light. If it's a nice night and it is dusk I can't think of a much better end to the day.
Departing Liverpool by sea the Perch light is one of your last sights of land- the 'leaving of Liverpool' (if going on the overnight ferry to Belfast or an emigrant ship to a new life).
Then the Merseyrail train back into the city from New Brighton.