Underwhelmed with London. Suggestions for next 4 days

I should note we've done Windsor, Winchester abbey, Will do tower day after tomorrow.

Perhaps another day trip to the coast? Brighton perhaps?

Walk through Regent’s Park or head out to Richmond and visit the lovely and peaceful Kew Gardens.

Have you looked into London Walks. They are guide led, walking tours and there is a wide variety. I took a 1/2 day tour to Greenwich last time I was in London and really enjoyed it. You meet near Tower of London metro stop & take a cruise to Greenwich. Also, have you looked into going to a play? The cost is more reasonable than in NY and there is a wide variety. If you liked Windsor maybe 1 day you could go to Hampton Palace. I do hope you try to stop somewhere else for a meal. You could have afternoon tea at a tea shop-it doesn't have to be a fancy tea. You could grab a black cab and 5 minutes away is one of my favorite restaurants. Grumbles is one step up from a pub and has a lovely menu. I like the fish pie, but it has a variety of items on the menu.

Ken, it sounds like you've had some bad luck. I haven't yet been to London, I'm planning a trip for September. I did hear the Borrough Market can be very crowded. Perhaps some folks can recommend quieter markets.

There are some cities that are just really crowded. In Venice, we were up and out by 7am. We walked around for a while and then came back for breakfast at 9am, so that could be a strategy for you. Another tactic could be to look at London Walks. They are quite inexpensive and people seem to love them. With a tour you wouldn't have to worry about navigation. There is quite a variety of topics. https://www.walks.com/

Most museums are free. You could check some out and if they don't appeal, check out something else. I could be wrong (often am) but I wonder if the British Library and/or the Archives would be less busy. https://www.bl.uk https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

If you liked Windsor, maybe you'd enjoy a daytrip to Hampton Court?

Or a day trip to Bletchley Park (WWII Code breaking) or to the Wimbledon Tennis museum. I also would suggest day trips to smaller towns about an hour away. Hopefully, someone with more experience will pipe in.

I'm with Laurel, I'd head to Kew Gardens. It is big, spacious and green.

Do you have an interest in the Tate Britain which is near your hotel? The Wallace Collection (art museum in an old mansion) is also not usually crowded.

The British Library is usually not crowded and their permanent collection includes Magna Carta.

Skip the British Museum as it's very crowded.

Sorry you are not having the vacation you wanted. IF you decide on Europe again, I'd go the end of March (before Easter) to avoid crowding). Guided tours are also fun, in my opinion although you might feel restricted.

I'm not a great fan of London either!!! There's a lot more of England waiting to be discovered. Avoid the usual tourist traps...

Think about day trips out from London. Catch the train to Sevenoaks and go and visit Knole House. The house is often described as a calendar house with 365 rooms, 52 staircases, 12 entrances and seven courtyards.... It is surrounded by an extensive deer park and there are lots of walks you can do.

Another place to consider is Rye - again doable as a day trip by train. This is a delightful small town on the edge of the Romney Marshes with a long history. It retains its narrow cobbled streets and old houses. Climb the church towwer for the views.

Think about Whitstable or Margate....

Another vote for Hampton Court. Also, what about Kew Gardens?

Things will probably be quiet from Tuesday onwards, once the holiday weekend is over

Get on Booking.com and see what you can find outside of London and leave. I realize it's May and you can't count on sun and sand, but they do have beaches there. Try one of those. Or a smaller city like Liverpool if you're a Beatles fan. Or get on a plane and fly to a beach destination. Don't torment yourself. And don't rule out all European destinations because you got overwhelmed (not underwhelmed) by one of the biggest, busiest and most touristed cities in the world.

What if you did a few of these Rabbies Day Tours? They mostly leave from the Victoria Coach Station area - about a mile from your hotel. So you take a cab there, hop on a Rabbies bus, have a fun day, and take a cab back to your hotel.

https://www.rabbies.com/en/england-tours/from-london?

Rabbies puts on a fine tour and you’d see some areas outside London.

Don’t be embarrassed about being overwhelmed by London. It’s huge and it’s hard to adapt to the driving on the other side and its impact on being a pedestrian. We are always almost looking the wrong way.

A day trip (or make it an overnight if you really want to escape London) to Bath is easy from London and could provide a nice break from the city. I totally understand your sentiments. I've been to London several times and while I'm always happy to arrive in London, I'm also always happy to leave it, whether that be for onward travels or for home.

I'm sorry you are not having a great time. I lived in London for over 20 years and feel much the same as you when I go up these days.
Things are probably a bit more crowded this weekend due to the VE celebrations - see what on here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8072z9pg1yo

I'd also suggest a train trip to the coast - if you like art, Margate, by train 1.5 hrs e/w would be good. There are several galleries, incl Turner. There is also the oldest wooden rollercoaster in the UK in Dreamland.
Don't forget Tate Modern, round the corner from your hotel.

I second the other suggestion for Kew Gardens, a rather peaceful place with an outstanding botanical collection.

How about a river trip, especially the long one in the "wrong" direction, towards Kew.

You say you don't like pub food - not sure what you mean precisely.

If you like Chinese, go to China Town, in Soho near Leicester Square.

If you cross the river by Lambeth Bridge , you will come to the museum of Garden History.
Walk east and keep going till you have passed the crowds of the London Eye - on the edge of the river by the Festival Hall are numerous eateries of all nationalities and prices.
My favourite is the Archduke (it's in the railway bridge arches) - upstairs in the restaurant, rather than the bar. I've been going there since it opened in 1980s.

Good luck - I'd hate you to go home unhappy - bit I felt the same about New York!!

Ken,

The hop-on, hop off would mostly just have you in traffic. After your experience so far, it might be easy, but I don't think you'd enjoy it.

Also, my experience at the Borough Market was the same as yours. I got off the bus to go, took one look at the heaving crowds, and walked away.

I like some of the other suggestions you've gotten. Kew Gardens, Hampton. Consider Oxford or Cambridge.

I hope you can salvage the rest of your trip and hope you don't write off the rest of Europe after this. You might enjoy something like a river cruise next time.

I've been to London half a dozen times and there are things I love about it, but I can find it overwhelming at times. Someone else in the thread mentioned they didn't enjoy New York City. I have enjoyed myself there, but I don't love it and usually cannot wait to leave.

I like Hampton Court Palace (take train from Waterloo Station to Hampton Court Station)
Bletchley Park - Code breaking center from World War II (take train from Euston Station to Bletchley Park)
Really adventuresome day : Portsmouth Historic Dockyards (take train from Waterloo Station to Portsmouth Harbor)

All three suggestions are out of London, and involve only short walks (less than 7 minutes) after you get off of the train.

Totally Okay to have different travel interests. If we were all the same, how boring.......

Ditch some of the RS suggestions right off the top - Borough Market is for the birds (in my opinion) and Greenwich takes some research to determine if its offerings are of personal interest of not. Take a look at your remaining plans and make sure they are you - not someone else's idea. It's too easy to think a guidebook agenda is one's own.

Kew Gardens can be lovely and relaxing (as noted)

You don't mention interests, but consider also:
Hampstead Heath - wonderful for a stroll on a nice day. Kenwood House (free) has an incredible art collection. Curators I've enjoyed chatting with!

Stroll around the Inns of Court area. There may be London Walks - Legal London or something. Fun little throughways and hidden courts. Not generally full of tourists

Day trip to Oxford or Cambridge. May be full with student-types and some tourists, but enough interesting areas that you can wander off the beaten path. Oxford's Ashmolean has great exhibits if interested: https://www.ashmolean.org

Day trip to Winchester - lots to see. https://www.visitwinchester.co.uk

If you indicate interests, I can recommend many smaller London museums and sites that are not typically overwhelmed with crowds. I'm sure others can chime in with their favorites.

Don't feel guilty! My first trip to London, decades ago, was colored by too many preconceptions and I also was disappointed. After countless return trips in various circumstances of solo, family, work travel, my attitude has changed. I will admit that on a recent visit when I was feeling under-the-weather, I found the crowd levels upsetting and had to work hard to overcome this and enjoy myself.

By the way, as a mostly solo traveler these days, I often "dine" at my hotel in the evening. Relax and enjoy - restaurant exploration, reservations and planning aren't for everyone!!

Yeah, Borough Market has evolved into this tourist conflagration. While there's a handful of solid vendors there, the pricing is quite high and the sheer volume of foreign tourists crowding about is overwhelming. For other less crowded market/food halls consider: Convent Garden, Seven Dials Market, Mercato Mayfair, Bang Bang Oriental Food Hall, Broadway Market and Old Spitalfields Market.

We don't eat pub food, and are a little ashamed to say we've just eaten and drank at our hotel THe Westminster Curio. Does anyone have any suggestions?

You do know that 'pub food' ranges from basic bar food crap that resembles a Wing Stop or, Buffalo Wild Wings, to very solid, quite reputable elevated fare. One of the most popular pubs in London is The Devonshire, which is recognized for its excellent traditional menu and mentioned in Michelin Guides. Near your hotel is the Jagged Hare, besides an extensive menu also serves game meat. One of my favorites is The Pelican in Notting Hill. For a sit-down restaurant, take a look at Fallow and its chicken-focused sister restaurant Fowl. Hawksmoor and Blacklock are popular steak/roast focused restaurants. Dishoom and Gymkhana are also well regarded restaurants to try London's famous Indian cuisine scene. The Regency Cafe is also near your hotel, this is one of the long-standing English diners where you can get a proper English Fry for breakfast.

Keep in mind, if you're ordering a burger, you're likely to be disappointed as NHS regulations stipulate all ground beef needs to be cooked well-done. Most restaurants pre-cook the patties, then do a second cooking before serving, resulting in quite a dry, flavorless and exhausted patty. Also, do not order fish n'chips unless its from a chip shop where they're dredging & frying your order; most restaurants/pubs get their fish pre-battered & fried from suppliers, and upon ordering they'll do a secondary fry to get it up to temp and crisp-up the outside; its a cost saving measure that many restaurants do resulting in a less-than stellar dining experience. Take a look at Mayfair Chippy, Rock & Sole Plaice, Hobson's, and Pimlico Fish.

Ken, I'm sorry you and your wife are having just a miserable time in London.

I agree with the idea of another day trip or 2 where someone else takes care of the logistics.

And I'm with you on Borough Market. I was there on a beautiful Saturday in late March with about half of London. I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I'm a bit confused as to your not eating pub food. Depending on the pub, I've eaten scallops, halibut, Beef Wellington, roast lamb, cheeseburgers, fish and chips and more. Many pubs have a separate dining room offering a more restaurant style menu. The Ship Tavern is one of those.

I hope the rest of your trip is more enjoyable.

Come to Portsmouth! We've got the sea, the beach albeit pebbles, the weather's great and the history is fascinating. You can reach the city by train in around an hour which will deposit you mere steps from the Historic Dockyard and no need to worry about navigating public transport as much of what is of interest is entirely walkable. For an even slower pace of life you can take the hovercraft or ferry over to the Isle of Wight and explore the wonderful island that rarely features on the radar of most foreign tourists.

...our failure to learn getting around have been the biggest
detractors.

Ken, can you explain what specific part of the Tube you're having difficulty with? Is it trouble reading the map? Is it figuring out which direction you need to be going, thus what platform to go to? Maybe the good folk here can help if they understand a bit better what's hanging you up. I'm guessing you might like London a lot better if you could get comfortable with the Tube.

Same with pub food; what more exactly is not to your liking, and what kind of food DO you enjoy?

Oh gosh, if you enjoyed Windsor Castle then you're bound to enjoy Hampton Court. Yes, do that one. You'll most probably enjoy your time at the Tower too; interesting place, that!

Another vote for the British Library, specially the Treasures of the British Library. Best of all? It's free, and unlikely to be overrun. We really liked that one.
https://events.bl.uk/exhibitions/treasures-of-the-british-library

I'm sure the British Museum will be chaos but you might take a look at the National Portrait Gallery? I thought that one was interesting (just the attire of the sitters in the Holbeins and others of that era) but I'm sort of an art geek.
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/

What about a ramble around Highgate Cemetery?
https://highgatecemetery.org/visit

Can you confirm your hotel and address? Westminster Curio? If I have the right one, this is a location many on the forum like and is 6 minutes from a tube station.

I hope you will consider additional trips to Europe. My husband and I have really enjoyed visiting multiple countries and cities of all sizes. London is about 4 times bigger than Paris or Rome, to get a sense of why the tube map is so complex. Have you checked with your hotel for directions?

If you are into MI5 (James Bond) there is a special exhibit at the archives. My understanding is that the library and archives are free to visit

Wherever you end up on Sunday, seriously consider have a traditional roast dinner, whether in a pub or in a restaurant.

I agree with your assessment of the Borrough Market. Here’s an activity my husband & I both loved:

Our last day, we participated in The London East End Food Tour with Eating Europe. We both highly recommend it! It was a feast, beginning in the Spitalfield Market - our new favorite open market! Our guide, David, was very knowledgeable with a dry sense of humor, and he shared so much history & ethnic culture along with sharing six tasty restaurants with us over 3 1/2 hours. My husband & I both felt it went fast, which is always a sign of a great food tour!

I am giving you “full permission” to stay someplace else one night. That could get you on the train to a location that feels like a place fun for you, and you could spend 1 1/2 days there. I did this when I was at Marbella, Spain in February for two nights. I left after one night and chose a much better option for what I needed during that trip.

Ken, sorry you are having problems. Public transportation can be daunting, especially for those of us who have no or limited access/experience at home.

As I researched my June trip, I found several small museums: Wallace Collection, Sir John Soane Museum. Kensington and Hampton Palaces were both great and not as crowded as the Tower of London. Look at Google maps to bunch an area of sightseeing together for less transportation needs. Plus there is a thread from a year ago that mentions small museums.
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/england/hidden-gems-for-a-repeat-visitor

To get out of London without too much work on your part, take a look at Rabbie’s Tours. I have two 1-day trips scheduled out of London and two out of Killarney Ireland. Rabbie’s has been recommended multiple times on the forum. https://www.rabbies.com/en/england-tours/from-london

Food tours are always good. I’ve done six in several country’s with Eating Europe. https://www.eatingeurope.com/london/

Don’t give up on Europe. There are many wonderful, interesting places to visit. A Rick Steves tour may be a good starting point for you.

Get on a train and go to Rochester or another small own. https://secretldn.com/villages-close-to-london/
Sorry you're having such a hard time in London, it is rather crowded. I too had a horrid time at Borough Market the second time there. Look at this article for suggestions of cute towns/villages to visit, at the bottom of each village is how to get there. Rye has a lot of tourists, but was still enjoyable. Also, link for pretty villages in UK https://secretldn.com/prettiest-villages-uk/

Bath is just over an hour by train and you can arrange a walking tour. Cantebury is not the prettiest town but the Cathedral is famous and worth a visit. If you like historical buildings, also in Cantebury is St. Martin's Church from the year 597 (see Wikipedia for full description) its the oldest church building still functioning.

Bradford on Avon is easy to get to and has a lovely tea shop and one of the oldest unaltered anglo-saxon churches- St. Laurence, from 7th century

Also not far by train is the New Forest. Pick a small town there to stay in and see the Forest and the ponies.

Best of luck

I agree that the crowd issue in London is a real downer, it is exhausting to deal with. We were there in October, and in touristy areas, the crowds are daunting...we enjoyed walking in Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park every day as an escape from the crowds...we did not go inside any museums - too many people...we minimized our time spent on the Tube - terribly crowded stations and cars. We always attend a play in a West End theater, so many shows to choose from.

Skip the "bucket list" sights people mention here, stay off of the Tube as much as possible, and walk in neighborhoods like Notting Hill, South Kensington, and Chelsea...

When you say you "don't eat pub food" I have to ask have you actually eaten in a pub on this trip? The food served in London pubs today is quite good, much better than it was as recently as 15 to 20 years ago...other food to seek out in London is "ethnic" from Chinese to Indian, some excellent options. Great international food options on Queensway, for instance...

I found this option in Weymouth:
https://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/seascape-guest-house.html?label=gen173nr-1FCAEoggI46AdIM1gEaLQCiAEBmAExuAEHyAEN2AEB6AEB-AECiAIBqAIDuAKZmdnABsACAdICJDliMDJjMTQyLTgwNmUtNDEyNC1hMjEyLTY5ZDZlZDA4ZDczZNgCBeACAQ&aid=304142&ucfs=1&checkin=2025-05-04&checkout=2025-05-08&dest_id=1706&dest_type=region&group_adults=2&no_rooms=1&group_children=0&nflt=oos%3D1%3Bprice%3DUSD-min-200-1%3Breview_score%3D90%3Broomfacility%3D108%3Bht_id%3D208%3Brated_high%3D1&srpvid=9fc2781a237103dd&srepoch=1746292219&matching_block_id=1171672303_389705699_2_1_0&atlas_src=sr_iw_title&activeTab=main
Weymouth can be reached by train for London Waterloo in 2.5 hours. Return to Heathrow with one change in about 3.5 hours.

London can be brutal and it’s certainly not to everyone’s taste. Many British people also hate it. I only live 100 miles away and many, many people here literally never go to London because they don’t like it. A lot of other people wouldn’t want more than a day or 2. So you are not alone!

Book a train and go to Bath. Just get a taxi to Paddington, don’t even think about the cost, and rescue your trip. If even that seems daunting just pay a few hundred pounds and get a car all the way there. Or pick another small town and go there. You’ll have a totally different experience and will feel so much better.

My concern is this....you don't like public transportation so I'm hesitant to recommend a regular train out of town for day trips or even for a few days.

But if you are willing to get on a regular train, then consider:

Canterbury

Portsmouth

Oxford or Cambridge

Brighton (Sand and Beaches)

Winchester

I'm also going to second (or third) the idea of looking into Rabbie's Day Trips.

If you don't mind me asking, and you don't have to say where, but do you live in a large city?

I’m one of those people who likes London, but I live in a big city and am used to public transportation. That probably makes it a little easier. I’m sorry your experience hasn’t been great.

In addition to the suggestions mentioned, including a day trip to the coast, there are quieter pockets not too far away within London. Even walking through Hyde Park might help. There’s a cafe by the Italian Gardens in the park where you can sit and have a cup of coffee or a sandwich with a view of the fountains, etc. If you don’t want to brave the Tube again, you could take a taxi. Best wishes for the rest of your trip!

The VE Day celebrations are this week. There is a fly past on Monday. The poppies at the Tower start next week.

You could take a trip to Hampstead.

What didn’t you like about Greenwich? Only asking to get an idea of what you might like. Not because I disagree with you.

Obviously like everyone else I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Going to Europe isn't cheap and London for sure is an expensive place to visit and it sounds like you are feeling overwhelmed.

While the responses have provided a lot of wonderful places to visit (many I have been to or plan to visit myself on our upcoming 3rd trip to London/England) I would hate to see you just end up wandering around wherever you go. The secret is doing a little more research. For example, if going to Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, go to youtube and view some videos and see if there is something that will appeal to you. Go the website of each place and see what you find there that will give you an idea of how you want to spend your time and money.

Spending time in London almost requires using the tube, so likewise search youtube for videos on how to use the tube. I wish many US cities had the transportation options that Europeans take for granted. Apps like Citymapper can give you complete information on what tube station is nearby and what lines to take and how much time will be needed. If not familiar with Citymapper again visit youtube for information.

If still feeling overwhelmed take the advice of walking tours or Rabbies or other tour groups. Let the professionals and locals enthusiasts do the work and just enjoy the experience. Google will give you plenty of options to choose from. This is why we enjoy RS tours so much. My wife loves the experience that comes with having a guide that takes care of us extremely well, but there is enough free time and time we spend either before or after that I have a chance to find those experience unique for us.

Good luck and safe travels! Let us know how the rest of the trip goes.

Sorry to hear you aren’t having a whelming experience and yet good for you for recognizing you aren’t over-crowded urban area people and course-correcting quickly.

If you can’t get out of your London hotel, you’ve received some fantastic suggestions.

If you can, I love the idea of moving somewhere calmer, with an overlap with your interests. For example, you may love a country house spa hotel on the south coast or elsewhere outside London.

My sister-in-law and I spent several days together over the summer. I picked Hardwick Hall and Chatsworth. She picked a spa hotel. I thought it would be a waste of my time and money, but the food was lovely and it was a restorative and interesting cultural experience.

Hope you find something to better suit your needs for your remaining days!

As someone who absolutely loves London I do understand how you feel. We've all been to places we're less enthusiastic about for one reason or another (for.me it is Rome). Sounds to me like based on your preferences Southeast Asia would be a good spot for your next holiday!

For those of us trying to avoid the heat and humidity, what do we love about London? Personally, I like the history and the culture. The museums, the ballet, the West End theatres, the galleries, the stately homes.

What would I suggest for your trip? Lots of great suggestions already, and Hampton Court is probably the best. An easy train ride from London, and a beautiful palace with a significant history. And I also like the suggestion of Hampstead. It's a very smart residential area with some nice shops, but Hampstead Heath is amazing - you'll feel you're in the countryside. And I know you say you don't like pub food, but there's a nice pub, The Spaniards, on the heath. I think you just haven't been to a good pub yet ;)

Bath was also suggested. Great Regency buildings plus the Roman baths. Can get busy, but nothing on the scale of London.

As another day trip, we recently visited Petworth. Lovely little town, quite picturesque. Lots of antique shops. Short train + bus trip from London.

Which brings me to public transport. It's unavoidable. You'll just have to get used to it. I take the train every day at home so the tube is not issue. If you don't take public transport, I understand it may take some getting used to. Yes, people are in a hurry. Yes, doors close without warning. But it is the.most efficient way to get around.

I wonder whether vehicles driving on the left has complicated things for you. It took me awhile to remember to look right before stepping off the curb.

Sounds like relaxing vacations, rather than urban ones, are your thing, which is just fine; we all have different travel styles. For the remainder of your time in London I'd suggest maybe taxis to get you around, and I'd strongly recommend visiting the Tower of London. Hope you find a way to have a better time before flying home.

Just a word of encouragement. It is not too late to watch a few you tube videos about how to ride the tube or take the train in London. It may help you have a better rest of the trip.

I always look for these types of videos before I visit any new city. Just being able to visualize the process in advance is very helpful.

Don't be intimidated by the tube if you get on it going the wrong way just get off at the next stop and get on the tube going the other direction. We found it super easy to use. You can always ask other passengers but a good idea is to ask someone carrying groceries or schoolchildren etc not someone with a suitcase as they may be tourists like you! Relax and realize you have learned how to navigate in a big city and now you also know what is a better type of vacation for you.

Please come back and let us know how you are doing. We all are hoping we have helped and are more than happy to provide any additional assistance.

For future travel, I agree with the suggestion to look at a Rick Steves tour. One of the things they try to do is teach travelers how to get around and get the most of your trip. Also, there are beaches and ocean in Europe. ;)

I just wanted to get back on and check in and thank you all for these wonderful suggestions. I'll try to proofread the best I can before I hit submit but if you see the word period curiously cropping up it's because my voice to text has suddenly stopped creating punctuation.

This little side half or full day trips like to the Cotswolds really do appeal to us. For some reason I thought we'd be overdoing it if we did any of those, like the one to bath and Stonehenge, the Cotswolds, etc. A couple of posts I created earlier on before we came let me to believe that Brighton might be a little seedy these days so we may or may not have that way, but today we're going to walk from our hotel which is the Westminster curio on John Islip Road, to Kensington Palace and meander through Hyde Park are least fora good walk, possible tour the palace.

The Good wife and I are going to go through all these suggestions, especially of interest are those rabbies tours. The Cotswolds has me intrigued.

I can't thank you all enough. We've come to our senses a bit, and have when decided NOT to stow away aboard a freighter to get back home !

I do think three quarters of our dissatisfaction is the crowds and the uncertainty on getting around. We're not driving so the left hand side of the road doesn't throw us off, but even though I studied up on how the tube works, when you hit the ground you have to translate that mental knowledge into actual action trauma and that piece is missing, but we'll get it.

The crowds can be very wearing. Get a taxi if you need to and head to quieter, greener areas Hampstead, Richmond or Wimbledon. You’ll hardly believe you’re still in London. Sometimes you just need to do what works for you.

OP: you have gotten amazing advice! I just want to add one nuance… about Brighton.

Brighton does include a (pebbly) beach, plus sun, plus beachy ambiance, plus the cute “Lanes” and the Pavilion…. BUT. You are right. Much of it is pretty seedy, has seen better days, or is over-priced tat. Or all three. And it can be mad crowded!

If London is wearing you down, I’d avoid Brighton - it will depress you! (And I say that having just been there in April to go to their branch of Dishoom and take our “god son” to get ice cream and a beachball.)

London Walks is my suggestion. I went on a walk almost every day last time when I was there just because they showed London in a much better way then if I was on my own. I believe the also have a discount card for taking more than one walk. www.walks.com
Seriously, it's one of the best parts of being in London.

Have you thought to go to Cambridge? Oxford is way too busy but I loved Cambridge University tour-you can sign up to tour a college and IMO, it's much more relaxing than London and much prettier.

I don't know if you have a smartphone but I found the best way to get around London is to put your journey into the TFL Trip planner website(Transport for London).

Finally, Kew Gardens-and the area around are very lovely at this time of year and it's a bit of an oasis in the city.

We've learned a lot about ourselves this week. Beaches. Ocean. Sun.
Sand. No Europe. Unless a to z handheld guided tour or cruise.

I get it completely. After Texas, the US is the most beautiful country in the world so it’s hard to rationalize going anywhere else.

Thanks for any ideas. I know this is NOT how most people experience
London. My wife and I are wired profoundly different than the general
public and we often leave people scratching their heads so feel free
to scratch, haha!

No, if I had your experience I might be feeling the same. I never quite hit your wall, but saw it down the road so abandoned Western Europe for the most part, started working with travel planners who actually know what they were talking about, and started customizing the trips around my things of enjoyment. Things that don’t involve cathedrals, ethnographic museums, Michelin star food, entry tickets and bumper to bumper tourists whacking everyone around them with backpacks suitable for a Everest expedition.

So I am off to Montenegro in a few days. Half the trip me and a quiet high country river; fly fishing and dreaming. Half of the trip me and a view of the one of the most beautiful coast lines; drinking and dreaming.

If what you like is beaches, ocean, sun, sand and not Europe then it's fairly clear that you're not going to like London, as it doesn't deliver on anything. And that's fine. I don't like London much either - I go a lot because one of my sons and my granddaughter live there. even though I'm not keen on London in general I do love Greenwich and see nothing of great interest in Windsor so we should probably avoid holidaying together Ken. You can get handheld guided tours in London but I doubt that you would like them either, because even they can't do anything about crowds.

The UK has some of the best beaches in the world but hardly any of them are anywhere near London and you would have to be very lucky to coincide a trip with hot sun (and even then the water won't be hot).

My one line advice would be to get out of London and preferably to somewhere well away from known tourist attractions. Wherever you go in the UK there are places of interest close by.

I can see why you're not enjoying London. It's a place to indulge one's interests in museums and history, which is why I love London and would never choose Hilton Head as my place to live at the beach.

Just to stir things up a bit have you looked into going to one of the plays / musicals in the West End? The last time we were in London we booked a matinee of Wicked about three hours before show time. Enjoyed a first class musical along with a glass of wine and some popcorn. It looks to me you need to find something that allows to you to sit and decompress for a few hours.

I'm going to suggest a day trip to Lewes, East Sussex, and specifically to Charleston House, the country home of many of the Bloomsbury Group. You can get a train from Paddington to Lewes, and there will be taxis outside the train station. It's a short ride to Charleston, which is one of my favorite places on earth. It features a beautiful garden, a newly built barn with cafe and art gallery, and the house itself, which is decorated lavishly with paint, pottery and paintings. It's also very quiet there!

I am so sorry you have had a disappointing experience. We were in London exactly a year ago and even though we are very city savvy, we were overwhelmed by the crowds. We didn't realize it was a bank holiday on the first Monday of May and it was a challenging weekend. Things should lighten up on Tuesday.

It looks like your hotel is nice and hopefully you have a concierge who can help you with some nearby restaurants. Just a change of scenery can be fun. You said you weren't pub people but it looks like there is some steak and Italian restaurants nearby. And London has every kind of cuisine you could ask for.

Since you enjoyed Windsor, maybe to catch the boat to Hampton Court Palace would be interesting. You board at Westminster Pier (about a 15 minute walk from your hotel) and there is a pier at Hampton Court. I would ordinarily recommend Kew Gardens, but when we were there nothing was blooming, we were too late for the tulips and the cherry blossoms and we were too early for the roses.We did love Richmond, charming and beautiful views of the water, maybe a nice place for a relaxing meal. Heading back on the boat might make it a long day. There is a train( not the tube) which would let you off about 15 minutes away from your hotel.

We have a lot of experience on public transportation. When heading to Richmond, we studied the tube map for awhile and were approached by a transit assistant. He was very friendly and advised us on how to get there in great detail, even though we were very confident we already knew what to do. I am sure you would find similar helpful employees. When coming back from Kew Gardens, we got on the train going in the wrong direction, and a very friendly Dad with 2 children asked where we were going and told us to get off at the next station and head in the other direction. Embarrassing but easily remedied! A lot of friendly, helpful people out there.

I didn't love Oxford, again very crowded, but we did love Bath and again it was an easy train trip (again not the tube) The ride is about 1:30 each way. The Cotwolds were wonderful and if you could find a tour, that would be very memorable. Whenever you can use taxis and private drivers, that would ease your stress. Good luck!

We will talk to our concierge when we return from our Tower of London tour this morning about the Cotswolds . but I just wanted to ask some general advice about them, I'm getting that there are a bunch of villages that are strong together, and that one could spend his little or as much time as they want exploring. I'm understanding that there's a train from Paddington to Moreton in Marsh (sp). Would that be a suitable day trip, just sticking to that one village?

Personally I feel the Cotswolds are better explored with more time and a car. Others may disagree. It can be done by public transport, but buses between villages are limited, and if you only have a day, you're limiting yourself. If you're really keen, maybe look at a guided tour.

There are so many other pretty places in England, just as (if not more) convenient from London. Rye has been suggested, and the New Forest also comes to mind.

The Cotswolds are lovely, but they do seem to be a compulsory stop for every American visitor... I'm not saying don't go, but have a look at alternatives.

I'm understanding that there's a train from Paddington to Moreton in Marsh (sp). Would that be a suitable day trip, just sticking to that one village?

I don’t think this will give you what you’re looking for. Moreton in the Marsh is a busy town with a main road running through it and while it’s quite attractive, it’s not the best of the Cotswolds. Personally I’m not a huge fan of the Cotswolds anyway as they tend to be over-touristed, but the best way to see them for you would be on a small group tour I think.

There’s not a lot to see in each of the Cotswolds towns/villages. You tend to stay a shortish time in each before moving on. A car makes this much easier.

I’d go somewhere off the main tourist track. Rye has already been suggested. As had Lewes, maybe not top of my list but an attractive town, but note trains go go from Victoria not Paddington.

The Cotswolds are a bad idea for you on such short notice, a proper visit is a planning nightmare for most. Heed the advice from others to skip that...

I ate Italian when I went to London in 2019. It's a rather cosmopolitan city, with loads of options other than pub food...

Ken, an unlrelated question, if you'd be so kind? You mention that you're staying at the Westminster London Curio Collection by Hilton, correct? Address is 30 John Islip Street, London SW1P 4DD England, correct?

A claustrophobic poster is looking for a hotel room that has a window that can be opened if even a crack. I see a prior guest's shot of one of the rooms at the Curio that appears to have a partial window that can be opened. That photo is here; it's the one with with the vertical window inset into the larger one:

https://www.google.com/maps/contrib/103925236199522447077/place/ChIJq6pqMugEdkgRdsnILe7rIEE/@51.6505206,-0.8807641,9z/data=!4m6!1m5!8m4!1e2!2s103925236199522447077!3m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDQzMC4xIKXMDSoJLDEwMjExNDUzSAFQAw%3D%3D

Do you have one of these in your room and if so, can it be opened? We're hearing that sometimes hotel windows that appear to be able to be opened are sealed shut. And if your window can be opened, are you also pleased with your accommodation?

There is a nice boat ride to Kew Gardens from Westminster Pier if you want to avoid the Tube. I will say that I think a big part of enjoying London is being comfortable using the Tube to get around. Although we did have some annoying experiences(the Circle Line wasn't a complete circle, a station we were planning to use no longer existed, the closest Tube stop to the museums in Kensington was closed for a year) on our most recent trip to London in 2022, we usually find it convenient and fast. You just have to accept the times that don't go according to plan and learn from your mistakes.

The Cotswolds are lovely but I would only recommend you going on an organized tour that will take you door to door. I think you could enjoy the experience of a small taste of it and benefit from a guide who would manage all of the details.

Have you ever consider taking black cabs? You could take the rain out to Moreton-in-Marsh in the Cotswolds take a early train from Paddington Station then you could take a cab to Broadway and Bourton-on-the-Water so you can see a couple beautiful villages.

I'd like to reassure you that you are not the only one who found London a bit much. We have only been once, and I don't think my husband ever wants to go back. The tube is exhausting and we struggled to find good food, and the weather was dampening to say the least. At one point I calculated how much it would cost us to abandon our trip and take the chunnel to France.

What saved our trip was getting out of London for 5 days ( Bath and the Cotswolds) and then returning with a slightly better perspective. As you don't have that luxury of time, I'll give you our favourite retreats.

Bus over tube- We stayed in Chelsea, and the bus that runs along Kings road could take us all the way in. Was perhaps slower, but we didn't care.
Find the gardens, there is a walk pretty much all the way from Kensington Palace to Buckingham through parks.
Book a play for the evenings.
V and A museum was very peaceful. My husband liked the Portrait Gallery.
Eat more cake. Particularly Walnut cake, which they do to perfection.
If you loved Windsor, why not go back?

Perhaps it may be time for you to check out of your hotel and get out of London.

There are many other places you can go, as you can see from all the suggestions here.

Since you enjoyed Windsor, maybe to catch the boat to Hampton Court Palace would be interesting. You board at Westminster Pier (about a 15 minute walk from your hotel) and there is a pier at Hampton Court.

The above is a quote from a post by Sunny22 yesterday.

Excellent suggestion. But first, check out of your hotel in London and take your luggage with you.
Hampton Court has luggage/bag storage. So stash your bags, enjoy a day at Hampton Court, then I suggest taking a taxi to Windsor and checking into a hotel for the rest of your time.

(You said you liked Windsor. I know you've been there, but consider going back if you're sick of London.)

At least you'll have plenty of time to stroll around town, and hopefully have peace and quiet.
Then depart Windsor on your day to fly out of Heathrow.

Unfortunate that you are having a difficult time.

Yes crowds can be daunting. A reality of traveling. Especially in London.

I’ve travelled to and stayed in different London neighborhoods for decades. Paddington, Hammersmith, Chelsea, Richmond, North Sheen, Finsbury Park, Chiswick and Abbey Wood to name a few. Flats, hotels, inns and rooms above pubs.

The numerous parks can provide serenity. Try Regents Park, Kew Gardens,Hampstead Heath or Richmond Park. Research, but would think much of the Isabella Plantation in Richmond Park is now in bloom.

As far as pub grub you are missing out on some great food. I still dream of the pumpkin sage soup I got at The Dove Pub in Hammersmith.

Best meals in recent visits:
Kurk Grill Bar in North Sheen
Dragon Inn in Richmond
The Mitre Paddington
Tudkin Flavors of Malaysia

EDIT: 9 times out of 10 the tube driver does announce “doors closing.”
EDIT 2: Do you research in the evening in your room where you are going the next day and how to get there.
EDIT 3: Trust me that 50 plus years ago food options were unappealing. Now, IMHO food options in the restaurants & cafes, from street market vendors and from food trucks are fabulous.

Have you visited Mercarto Mayfair?
Seven Dials Market? Maltby Market?
Spitalfields?
Tried eating at a Dishoom?
Nando’s?
Bills?

I hope your disappoint is tempered and you find some enjoyment.

Checkout Sudley Castle, the Battersea Power Station Conversion, and see a theatre production and partake in an Evensong at St Brides.

I didn’t take the time to read all the responses. Download a Tube app. It’s so easy to read and helpful. A map app also helps. Put in point A to point B and hit go! Some map AP also have the bus and tub info as well. It’s all in English! You can do it!

May I ask why you chose London? Ok, so it appears that maybe there is a disconnect somewhere to expectations and reality. It’s not Europe but maybe attitude. There are off the beaten paths, and many great ideas by others here. Hope you end on a positive note.

Is it open space you crave?

Walthamstow Wetlands is lovely or tube to Finsbury Park and amble on the Parkland trail. Or tube to Highgate and walk in the Heath.

Lastly, train to North Sheen and make your way to the huge Richmond Park to walk.
https://www.royalparks.org.uk/visit/parks/richmond-park

Dear Ken; Well you certainly have received a lot of advice! When you are done with your trip, please come back and edit your original post with an Update and add the word "Update" to your title. I think we are all hoping that the rest of your trip went better and would love to hear how it finally turned out.

Claudia's suggestion of a day trip to Richmond is a good one.
I might even consider moving to a hotel there if you're done with London.
You could spend the rest of your time staying in Richmond, walking in Richmond Park as Claudia suggested.
Lots of good restaurants and cafes in Richmond. You could take transportation from Richmond to Heathrow (taxi or bus) on your day of departure.

Good for you for standing up and saying “I hate this.” rather than prolonging your pain.

I’m too late to the party, but I would have decamped and moved onto Bath, York, or Portsmouth. Totally different from London and fascinating in their own ways. Bath is walkable and peaceful (er?); York is bursting with history and the train museum is great. I think Portsmouth is a little less walkable but still doable, and the Isle of Wight is a nice day trip. IMHO, too cold for the beach in England now. Don’t give upon England. On our last two trips, we ventured beyond London and didn’t regret it for a minute.

Just a follow up. Being the tenacious sort, I decided to get my arms wrapped around the subway, and ended up circling most of the city with my good wife yesterday. Borough market again, but on a weekday. We got there at 10:30 and it started to fill up and got a little stressful over again so we had a plan b with the Stoddard Street food market one hop away.

We did mostly direct routes, went up to Kings Cross to see the Harry Potter tram going into the wall at gate 9 3/4, then today we'll go back to the brick Lane food market. I cannot imagine in a million years ever eating anywhere but these food markets. A little bit of this a little bit of that, and 15 lb for two people and we can't finish half of it.

We decided to stay put in london, and although it's cold these last 3 days, we'll find enough to to, and we know we're flying back home tomorrow.

So many great suggestions on this thread, I need to find a way to save them all. Thank you all for your time and non-judgment!

Oh Ken, that’s so good to hear. Glad you’ve got to grips with the tube and found some good food.

I was concerned by your mention of food in your initial post - that you seemed to think there was a straight choice between pub food or your hotel, given how many cafes and restaurants of all types and price ranges London has. But then I checked out your hotel location and - well, I’ve always felt that Pimlico area to be a bit of a food desert and does not have as many restaurants and cafes immediately at hand as other parts of London.

Anyway it sounds like you’ve managed to enjoy yourself a bit. You were unlucky that your very first visit coincided with a holiday period and exceptional warm weather and London can be horrid and exhausting in those circumstances, even for those of us who know and love it.

Well done on your honesty. London is very much not for everyone.

today we'll go back to the brick Lane food market.

I love the Brick Lane market, much less stressful and crowded than Borough market plus the food is more Asian biased which I like. It's great spending a couple of hours at Rough Trade records and then filling up at the market.

Glad to hear you had a bit more of an enjoyable final few days.

Good to hear! Have a safe trip home tomorrow.

Nice to know you succeeded in enjoying parts of the trip.

Safe flight home.

Ken,

Thanks for checking back in with us and I am very proud of you that you ventured out and mastered the tube and the markets. City energy vacations can be very overwhelming and with it being a holiday weekend, even more so.

I am a city girl and I love the energy, museums, history, and good food, but I don't want my entire vacation to be at that pace. Maybe in the future plan a city adventure for the first half of the time, and then change to a peaceful spot. Beaches, water vistas, mountain views are all vey nourishing to the soul.

You had mentioned you were beach people, so I do see that in your near future, but don't give up on the many interesting European cities. I think with a little distance from this trip, you will have some fond memories and maybe be inspired to try again. Many like cruises to get to different places and have all of the details and meals taken care of. We have gotten to the point where we do like to do an occasional all day private tour to relax and let them guide our day. I wish you well!

Thanks again. The last replier mentioned cruising and we do have out eyes on an Italy/france NCL cruise for 2026 or 27. There's an option for a one day tour on either end for a reasonable fee. Did 3 more tube journeys our last day. But 7-10 miles walking each day on top equals a tired couple ready to spend an uneventful day flying back across the pond. Cheers to all.

What did you think of that hotel? I'm quite familiar with those streets around there from working in the area. That hotel is quite interesting in that your neighbours to the rear are MI5 and neighbours in the street are Burberry. Handy for the Regency Cafe and on the same street as the rear of Tate Britain. The checkerboard-pattern apartment blocks in the adjoining streets are some of prettiest in London.

It's not really that handy for a tube station; St. James's Park is about the closest, Pimlico is a fair walk. 88 bus is a good route that passes nearby.

Horseferry Road has a few choices for breakfast and lunchtime. Crossing over, John Smith Square and the adjoining streets are very attractive. Some are preserved like a set from a period drama. Strutton Ground is nearby and is a good open-air spot for lunchtime. Easy walk to Westminster Abbey and The Houses of Parliament.

I'm not a hotel guy but I thought it might be a decent option for visitors who want to stay at a Hilton.

We found the hotel just fine. It was kind of a combination American style / British style, the beds were a little small and hard. Apparently a British king is the same as our queen give or take. But we had a suite, and space was ample. Everybody was extremely helpful if we had any problems. The restaurant and base we found expensive but that's par for the course.

The neighborhood was very walkable, we found pimlico station not too bad to get to, about a 10-minute walk. Pimlico only has one line, so sometimes it's handier to walk a few extra minutes to the Westminster tube station which has more lines available. Also the Uber boat pier near us, I think was either enbankment or Vauxhall, and that was so much quieter than the Westminster pier.

I kept meaning to check into the MI5 locale, but forgot. We did pop into the Tate Britain.

Great view of MI5 headquarters from Lambeth Bridge.

Glad you’ve begun to appreciate London and the neighborhoods and food options a bit more.

I think the nearest Uber Boat / Thames Clipper pier near there is Millbank. That's right in front of Tate Britain.

I quite like that area. It is easy to walk places from there. It's nice when you walk down to the river and you've got Victoria Tower Gardens. It's a nice place to sit and watch the river from a bench. It's where many of our pieces to camera and political interviews for the news in the UK are filmed. There and College Green, across the road. I said hello to Simon Calder there once while he was preparing to do a bit.

I also saw Boris Johnson (former London Mayor and Prime Minister) one street up from John Islip Street. He cycled towards me, we looked blankly at each other without saying hello, and he cycled on.

I think it would be a good spot if anyone has Hilton points or coupons to soften the blow.

So Ken care to share your final thoughts about London?

Final thoughts and summation!

1. We still will most likely not come back to London for a few years, though the thought of exploring the countryside does appeal to me. I'm 59. I've gotten to know myself. I've discovered a curious thing about human nature in that we often have a hard time discerning between what we value, and we THINK we value based on the input of others. I do NOT like theatre or museums. It took 5 decades for me to be "ok" with that and not feel like an uncultured, uncurious slob. I'm just not that curious about many things that others are. I love investing, philosophical viewpoints about things, etc. I've never "enjoyed" a museum, play, or parade. Never. Not even as a child. It's simply a "cellular level" preference. What I valued MOST about 8 full days in London was the kick I got from getting back on the horse and screaming around the city on the tube, and that we logged 60 miles in 8 days of walking.

2. I realized that "pre study" is good, but not to front load too much. If I'd had it to do over again, I'd have "crammed" at the last minute on figuring out the tube. I was worried and so learned about it 5 months ago. Never could figure out the citymapper app (because I had no way to "trial and error"), and so might as well have not studied at all. We failed miserably day 1, then for 15 minutes before my 5 a.m. workout the next day, I deep focused, figured it out, and then took a few chances. Wham. I could've gotten anywhere. Beautiful thing that tube. I never did try the busses, but I'm sure they're similar in their logic.

3. Everything's unnecessarily expensive. I found myself feeling a bit resentful. We neglected St. Paul's because I just wasn't willing to spend another $60-$80 bucks to get into another big stone building and walk around and fell ashamed because I was bored. 20% VAT, 12% service charge on everything that goes into the body. (The bright note was that nobody seemed to expect more tip. They seemed to value getting the "tap and go" done as most important priority. I actually never saw an opportunity to click or tap an "add a tip" button or box. We had Pret a manger for 3 dinners just to avoid a panic level buyer's remorse. We also found the food stalls. Unbelievable. $14 and threw half away because we'd have gained weight if we ate another bite. Can't imagine eating anywhere else. (My wife and I view food as a means to nourish and stay alive, though we appreciate if it tastes good. We hold eating at a restaurant as a "spend $2 for $1 in value" even at cheaper places. We equate being "enthusiastic" about food as an early (and painful) death sentence. (That's one of those concepts that might not be entirely true, but a person would live better if they BELIEVED it was true.)

4. The people are just classier, smarter, more articulate and have more work pride IN GENERAL than in the U.S. I found myself standing straighter, and speaking more carefully being around the typical native. Everything broken or peeling or dirty was being taken care of. It's a profoundly noble country.

5. If you're flying from the US, TRY to get a foreign airline. We are loyal to Delta. They handed us off to Virgin for the flight over, and we did 7.5 hours standing on hour heads. Way back it was true Delta and I thought I was going to need therapy. Happy to expand if anyone wants to hear. But I think the "US is worst airline provider" is pretty universal. (and we flew 1st class both ways. Not the "lay down private suite" level, but next one down.

Ken, Virgin is my preferred airlines. Premium Economy. Curious as to why you didn’t like.

Been enjoying London for over 50 years. Has never failed to entertain me. Last trip 2024. Enjoyed the Hunterian Museum, the long walk up to and back from the Greenwich Observatory. Was all about the walk and the views. One AM tubed early to in order to explore the peaceful Walthamstow Wetlands. Encountered no one on the trail.

Pub grub is my survival mechanism especially as my preferred travel month is November when I enjoy soups, stews, lamb shanks and pot pies.

At least you seemed to find some enjoyment.

Absolutely loved Virgin. It was the return trip on Delta that was far inferior.

I'm 59. I've gotten to know myself. I've discovered a curious thing about human nature in that we often have a hard time discerning between what we value, and we THINK we value based on the input of others.

Good for you. Some people never get to this point of self-realization. I hope your next trip is wonderful!

Hi Ken,

Yes, if you could please expand your comments re: airlines (Delta) , we'd appreciate it.
R and Z

I love your questions (read along but didn’t have better input than you were getting) and I LOVE your summary (and that you came back to give it)!

Side note: I went to England three times before I ever spent time in London. When I finally stayed a week, I enjoyed it far more than I expected (and may go back) - but I just love the smaller cities and countryside more. We are all different!

It sounds like you booked thru Delta and your flight was a codeshare with Virgin. It would have said that when you booked the ticket. I have flown both KLM and Airfrance via codeshare on a Delta ticket, and have disliked AirFrance, almost with a passion and have felt that KLM was fine, though we prefer Delta. I've never flown with Virgin, it sounds like should I have the opportunity, we should give it a try. It likely depends on the specific airline, whether domestic or international. It also likely depends on what each airline offers/provides for each level of ticket. I've never flown 1st class internationally. I've been upgraded to Comfort + occasionally, and a few times have flown Delta first class domestically (thru an upgrade) It could be Virgin 1st class exceeds Delta 1st class, but the other ticket classes could very well offer differing experiences.

OP thanks for the clarification regarding Virgin Airlines. Grateful that I’ve not flown Delta in decades.

If you are a Wallace and Gromit fan (Rube Goldberg engineering) maybe a visit to Thames Barrier and visitor center. It out beyond Docklands and for me was a nice detour. There is a ferry across the river there to the other side of the Thames. The Royal artillery museum is in t he same general area (I didn't get a chance to see it). And I think Greenwich is not too far away.

I can't find what the issue was regarding Delta? Was the issue that Delta 1st class wasn't upscale enough??

Delta vs. Virgin feedback

1. We've never flown overseas so we were anxious to see what the difference was between "international first class" and "domestic first class". We'd heard it was a little better. To make things a little foggier, "first class" on international flights is often used to identify those "lay flat" cubicles that start at around 4K round trip, while what we think of as "first class" (wider seats, free booze) is called "premium select" or other such term.

2. We are loyal to Southwest and Delta, and have both a Chase Sapphire Reserve and Delta Amex Reserve (total annual fees around $1,100 but we roughly double our money back with points each year). So we booked Portland Maine to Heathrow with one stop at JFK on Delta. For the flight OVER, the "long leg" (JFK to LHR) was on a Virgin Atlantic flight. The people were all British, very kind. The aircraft was, I believe, one of those new dreamliners that everyone was petrified to fly on for a few months. So everything was new and shiny. Seats were comfortable except for this new headrest. (Context: apparently 98% of the population isn't bothered by a headrest that pushes the head forward a bit. Both my wife and I, it completely eliminates the possibility of comfort. When we buy new vehicles, the first thing we do is remove the headrests on the seats and revers them so they're "pointing backwards". I can't believe our cervical spines are so unique that we're the only ones on the face of the earth that find this untenable, but there you have it.) But what we loved was that we were allowed to board about 20 minutes before boarding time was even announced, promptly greeted and served a glass of bubbly, and encouraged to visit the little "service bar" up ahead and grab a snack if needed. The meal service was typical first class. Nothing special, but neat to be flying on a plane and have a tablecloth, warm moist hand towel, and immediate service. And the attitudes...there was a little service bar with 3 stools. The guy seated in front of us was health conscious and went to it and did some stretches, reading, etc. just hung out. There was an ice bucket with 2 bottles of bubble and I asked the attendant, "is this self serve or should I ask?" and she said, "Oh, help yourself". We then finally asked, "Is it ok if we bring our bubbly up to the little bar and sit for a spell, and the attendant looked like she was pained to have to tell us, "Oh, I'm so sorry mum, it's for the lay down section up front. I'm so sorry." And she really SEEMED sorry. I swear, US Airlines...the attendants are like hawks, voraciously searching for an opportunity to say, "No you entitled slug! Get back ot your seat!" That may be a little harsh, but it's been our experience. And I promise it's not us. we're like two school kids when we fly first class. We might nicely ask if we can have/do something, but we're about as easy passengers as you could ask for when given a (kind and understanding) no.

   1. So...we spend our time in London...ready to go home day 2 but "stiff upper lip, tally ho and onward, it's just a flesh wound" on day 3. We get back to Heathrow. About 9 minutes from the time we get through the door, until the time we are through security. (Global Entry, we did the e check in...not sure what they call it. We got there 4 hours ahead of time and used up 9 minutes of that getting through. Wild. So, our Delta Amex Reserve gets us into the Delta club or Centurion. So we hit the Delta club which was about 3.5 acres inside Heathrow. Hung out for a couple of hours, then headed to the gate. Check in was a bit confusing. No good communication, finally allowed to board about 40 minutes after boarding time without any explanation. No bubble. Just an attendant confirming our meal choice. No bathrooms close by. the one nearest us was reserved for the "lay downs". (I think the ones on Virgin were as well, but they didn't bother us about is. (see next post...ran out of space)

1. (cont...) They're attitude seems to be, "There's the letter of the law and there's the spirit of the law. Use your judgement ... if people from lay downs are complaining because the unwashed masses from first class are crowding us out, then put your foot down. Otherwise, let the bloke in first class use the lay down toilet. He's not setting up camp there."

2. On Delta return, the communication was sparse and service just not quite as good. Our attendant had what seemed to be a quart of the most obnoxious perfume on. My wife gets migraines, and almost every perfume sets them off. I've learned to have nose radar, and every time she approached I whispered, "Hold your breath...here she comes!" Meals were just as good as Virgin, honestly. I think part of the downgrade was that it was an older aircraft, but also attendants seem to be on the lookout for "entitled people they get to say "no" to." I'm hard of hearing and the Brit accent was SO understandable simply because they articulate.

3. The biggest complaint were the seats. On Virgin the only downside was that, like all of Europe, space is a luxury. When the person in front laid back, you could identify their shampoo. With Delta, not quite as bad, but the seats were absolutely un "sleepable". We've decided we would never ever, under any circumstances, take a flight that began at night and landed in the morning, which may completely eliminate the possibility of future overseas travel, which frankly we're almost relieved about, after the $3 spent for every dollar of perceived value on this vacation (about 14K start to finish). Mostly because we cannot know how the seats are until we sit down. We slept like babies for a couple of hours on Virgin. Not a WINK on return via Delta ... seats were just miserable with that headrest, and we are just loathe to put our seats all the way back because we hate it when people do it to us.

All that rambling aside, I'm pretty sure Delta is still the best game in town among the US based airlines. But if we fly overseas again, it will HAVE to be a morning flight, and we will pay through the nose for Virgin over Delta if we can swing it. (We actually had enough points to get a "free" first class trip there and back, but opted to PAY because there were no points based daytime trips available. Upside is that by paying cash, we EARNED a boatload of points both on Delta and our Chase card.

Phew...It's early morning and I have not taken the time to "edit" so I hope you'll forgive the rambling nature of this post.

A side note, I'm really digging Rick Steeves forum. I find myself actually writing down reminders to "get back on and answer" because I'm so grateful of all the well thought out, articulate responses I've gotten. It certainly beats FB. That's to every one of you. Not a single response lacked some sort of value.

And of course, I like to remind myself after I'm done complaining, "Thank you God for giving me such a life where I have THESE things to complain about. In truth, I've got NOTHING to complain about in ANY area. But...well...I'm human. I'm gonna gripe anyway!"

And thank you Jules for both your kudo and remark about Air France. I'd have automatically thought that they'd be great just because they weren't American based.

Lovely remarks Ken and really puts in perspective what we have to complain about doesn't it!!!!

Virgin doesn’t have a First Class, only economy and business. They call the latter Upper Class. I’ve never flown with Virgin but it does have a very good reputation.

All that rambling aside, I'm pretty sure Delta is still the best game in town among the US based airlines.

Not what I have found.

I refuse to fly any of the US airlines due to past experience of poor product and bad service. Virgin is a good airline to fly with from my experience however I've only flown Upper Class so I don't know how their economy or premium economy compares. British Airways continues to fall down the ranks and with the recent changes to their Executive Club where it is now incredibly difficult to achieve and maintain a decent status I no longer feel tied to them which means I can now start trying out other airlines, I've just booked business class flights to Baku with Turkish Airlines as I've heard good things about them so I'm looking forward to seeing how they stack up against BA.

I think a lot of the European legacy carriers are trying to compete with the low cost airlines and this has had a negative impact on their product and service. The likes of BA, Air France, Lufthansa et al have definitely changed for the worse so I'd advise the OP not to assume that a non US airline is automatically going to be better than a US one.

I’ve truly enjoyed reading through all of these posts. Firstly because I appreciate honesty and openness and the fact that Ken expresses what he feels realizing it doesn’t necessarily place him in the majority travel experience camp where things just are always rosy and full of all the feels. I applaud him for that and am grateful for voices that share all viewpoints. I’m also so grateful for the community here which doesn’t judge and just accepts, then tries to offer constructive feedback, not pushing anything on others (bc it’s their preference), just presenting it for consideration.

I’m curious now, though, after reading your comments about this trip, where are you planning on going to next? We are historically beach, coast people as well, so two trips in the UK we really want to get to are Cornwall/ Devon and Northumberland. Maybe those areas would be of interest to you and your wife down the line?

Enjoy getting back into the groove of being home and have a nice start to summer!

... I'd advise the OP not to assume that a non US airline is automatically going to be better than a US one.

Bingo!

To comment on this:

Final thoughts and summation!
We still will most likely not come back to London for a few years, though the thought of exploring the countryside does appeal to me. I'm 59.

I highly recommend the Rick Steves tour, Best Of England In 14 Days. We went on this a couple of years ago, and it may be just what you want, when you're ready to come back. The itinerary is excellent, the hotels and transportation and most meals are included. You have no planning to do except for perhaps if you stay in England a couple of days after the tour.
https://www.ricksteves.com/tours/england/best-england-tour

Everything's unnecessarily expensive. I found myself feeling a bit resentful. We neglected St. Paul's because I just wasn't willing to spend another $60-$80 bucks to get into another big stone building and walk around and fell ashamed because I was bored.

A lot of people aren't willing to spend that to get inside. Some people consider an overpriced sight as a tourist trap. I won't say that about St Paul's, out of respect, because the money goes for the upkeep of the building which is quite expensive.
This is the reason some sights are so expensive; the upkeep and repairs of historic structures.

Get out of London and many things are cheaper; hotels, restaurants, sights. If you do come back to England, I suggest staying in the countryside or small towns. You may enjoy a week in the Cotswolds.

I take a different view about charging for Cathedrals - I strongly object on deep theological grounds. It subtly changes a Church towards a museum IMHO.

When I was on Choir pilgrimage last summer at Canterbury Cathedral the long speech at every service that it cost £x thousand pounds a day to maintain the building, please give generously became very wearing. Especially as that sum is achieved and slightly beaten from admission fees.
I am on my way currently to Exeter Cathedral specifically because they have a winter offer on of half price entry, further discounted by my senior railcard, so in 6 hours time I will get in for £4- affordable for almost anyone.
Still a bit theologically uneasy about it, but.. ..
I write this just after eating my second free 1st class Avanti breakfast of the day so acknowledge my own inconsistency! My excuse is that at £55 for an 8 hour 400 mile first class journey I couldn't say no.

Sorry to hear this. My wife feels kind of the same, but I don't! Google Maps give bus info as well as tube info. I like the bus. Very easy and you see the place, not a tunnel.

The city is so big you have to pick your activities loosely before you leave home or you can get overwhelmed with people once you get there, which is what probably happened to you. I think a couple of bad experiences, as you had, would put anybody off.

A side note, I'm really digging Rick Steeves forum. I find myself
actually writing down reminders to "get back on and answer"

I, for one, hope we hear more from you in the future! I enjoyed following your journey and wrap-up report very much. This?

I've gotten to know myself. I've discovered a curious thing about
human nature in that we often have a hard time discerning between what
we value, and we THINK we value based on the input of others. I do NOT
like theatre or museums. It took 5 decades for me to be "ok" with that
and not feel like an uncultured, uncurious slob.

You are neither uncultured or a slob: you are wise enough to avoid what you've tried and found not to your liking. Good for you. I feel the same about avocados, red wine, raw meat, dresses/skirts, football games, most military museums, cooking classes and some other stuff many enjoy. So kill me.

Agree that the entry price for St Paul's is pretty high. I'll swallow it for Westminster (been there twice before) given age and history of that particular pile but would probably give a return trip to Paul's a pass. At least many museums in London are free so that offsets the expense but it's a moot point if you don't like museums to begin with.

Very pleased that you conquered the Tube! Yep, a "beautiful" thing once you get the hang of it, eh? Oh, and thanks again for messaging the info I'd requested for that claustrophobic traveler. :O)

Bath is an easy bus ride away from London. The city's namesake Roman bath is quite interesting (although the entry free is exhorbitant; but hey, travel costs money, especially in England, and you know going into it you'll be paying high prices). There are day trips to Stonehenge from Bath that are quite reasonably priced, around ₤15 or so, and it is definitely worth a visit. The city of Bath is also quite charming. Check online, there are all kinds of other small towns in the English countryside that you'd thoroughly enjoy within just a few hours of London.

I've traveled in Europe quite a bit, now. However, my September trip, will be my first to England. Often I hear people say for initial trips to Europe, people should choose a place somewhat similar to where they live. It would seem London would be a good choice, but, even though they speak English, London is HUGE, and the public transportation is daunting. Population wise, London is four times bigger than Rome and Paris. My first stop on my first trip to Europe was Budapest, which in retrospect was a crazy choice, because I certainly got the feeling that I was no longer in Minnesota! But, we did fine. When people talk to me about a first trip to Europe, I think Vienna is a good choice. It's spotless, easy to navigate and most folks speak English.

Although Greater London is huge, the area of interest to tourists is much smaller. Getting around on public transport is pretty straightforward and you don’t need cash. And, yes people do speak English (of a fashion) so you can always ask for help.

Just bear in mind that the “must see” sights will be busy, so get to them early

Have a good time

The Cities of Rome and Paris have their administrative boundaries drawn quite tightly in but their respective contiguous urban areas sprawl for a considerable distance beyond these. London by contrast had its administrative boundaries extended far out in the 1960s almost to the greatest extent sensible at the time. Indeed Paris is the most populous "urban area" in the EU, with a population at least 1 million over London's depending exactly on how you define them. But as said above, these outer areas by and large are of much lesser interest to the visitor except for a few specific sites.

Thanks for the clarifications Bill and Marco. I did wonder if part of the size had to do with the way boundaries are drawn. When my son lived in St. Louis, MO, he would comment that the crime rates were an unfair reflection of the actual risk, and that the rate had much to do with where the city boundaries were drawn.

I will have to see how I feel once we arrive in London. I guess, when I look at the tube map, I find it very overwhelming. Yet, in Paris, Rome, and other large cities I've visited, it seems like there are fewer metro lines and I can see immediately a route to my destination. Additionally, we walked a lot in Paris, Rome, Vienna, etc., as I plan my trip to London, I feel like many of the places we plan on seeing are not walk able distances between them. Don't get me wrong, I'm very excited about our trip to London, so much history to explore, yet, I find the planning so much more complex.

If you take the main tourist area as Beli from Tower Bridge to Buckingham Palace going along the north bank of the Thames, it’s about 3.5 miles from end to end. (Yes, I do know this is a simplistic method as there are plenty of things to see away from this route but it gives a feel for the size of central London.)

The full tube map is a bit intimidating but the tube goes a long way out of town (blame the Victorians). The stations in the top left of the map are about 25 miles out. Nor is it to scale, some of the stations at the end of other lines are much closer to the centre but appear to be just as far out. Also, in the centre consecutive stations may be only a few hundred yards apart; whilst at the edges they may be a couple of miles apart.

Almost all the main tourist sites are in zones 1 and 2; ie the central area which is pretty much bounded by the (yellow) circle line. That’s where you’ll probably be most of the time. Although the colour coding is adhered to on signage, signs refer to underground lines by their names (eg District and Central) not by their colours.

The original poster has returned from the trip and wrote a good synopsis above. Well.worth reading.

We neglected St. Paul's because I just wasn't willing to spend another $60-$80 bucks to get into another big stone building and walk around...

Just a reminder that you can attend Evensong at St. Paul's most days at 17:00 for FREE - with the expectation that you are there for the entire service, and not entitled to walk around. For us it was enough to sit and observe the interior while hearing wonderful choral music. We contributed 5 or 10 pounds to the collection plate.

The OP has returned and posted some excellent after visit responses. I just want to point out that I usually hate every new big city I have arrived in during the first 3 days when jet lagged. I have learned to plan nothing more the first day than a walk in some historic park, a historic river walk, or a simple boat tour/commuter ferry. The second day will be an art exhibition or small museum that will take a max 2-3 hours. In the evening on days 1&2 I try to find an evensong service somewhere, or some concert in a church type of concert. I've heard some fantastic music that way. The 3rd day I plan on the 2nd day. Sometimes I love the new city by then. I also avoid subways of any sort. City buses are slower but more pleasant and scenic in every city/town I've been in.