Travel Planning Paralysis

One way of looking at this is that if you end in York, there is a direct train from York to Manchester Airport every hour, which takes around 90 minutes or so.

If you go to Penzance from Bath there are flights from Newquay to both Manchester and Newcastle (Newcastle has a metro station, for the 5 trains an hour to York so NCL to York should be 2 hours or less.
Exeter Airport (possibly more convenient than Newquay, from Penzance) also has flights to NCL and MAN.

From Cheltenham then Bristol Airport is pretty easy to reach, for flights to NCL (and Bristol also has direct 24/7 bus service from Cardiff).

If you omitted York then there is the Peak District on the very edge of Manchester- very easy to get to.

Whether that is helpful in the slightest way I don't know. It may add to your woes.

Adding Paris as well is almost certainly over stretching it but most of the regional airports have flights to Paris, so it is not impossible, if pushing the envelope to it's absolute limits.

From Bath, if you want a seaside town, then Weymouth is an easy day trip by train, as an example rather than going all the way to Penzance. If I was just wanting a seaside town there are equally good options in Devon, to save a bit of effort in going all the way west.

London is fabulous, but it's easy to fly in and out of London, so you can get back there on a future trip without difficulty. I'd suggest keeping London to less than half the trip just so you can have a good variety of destinations. Maybe make a list of the things in London you and your daughter would be really disappointed to miss, then estimate how many days you'd need to accomplish them. If that turns out to be 10 days, so be it, but it probably will not unless (like me) you're see-everything-in-the-museum people.

Bath allows for multiple day trips, which is good. Keep in mind that Wells requires a bus and--unless you plan to rent your own car or plan to hike--seeing a bunch of the cute Cotswold villages will probably require a day-long van tour. Between Bath and Manchester you have Birmingham, Shrewsbury, Chester and Liverpool, among other places of interest. I liked Birmingham fine but definitely preferred Liverpool even though I have no interest in Beatles-related sightseeing. Shrewsbury and Chester have attractive half-timbered architecture. Chester works as a base for day trips into northern Wales, where you'll find nice scenery and castles. I loved Bodnant Garden, a wonderful National Trust property south of Llandudno Junction, and was able to get there in 2017 by public bus, though it wasn't a quick process.

I've only daytripped to Manchester (twice) but look forward to spending more time there. York is also great and offers good day trip possibilities to lovely rural areas and the coast. In case you are not aware, York and Bath are very touristy these days.

I'm lucky to be retired and can take longer trips, but I still face the same problem you're having, every summer. I focus on seeing as many things of interest as I can manage in a limited area, so I'm not spending so much time on transportation. You can use the National Rail website (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ to check on travel times. Sometimes stopping off in a smaller town between two large cities adds quite a lot of travel time, which is OK as long as you know that in advance and it's part of your decision-making process.

Edited to add: Isn31c mentioned Weymouth. I really enjoyed the Abbotsbury Subtropical Garden outside Weymouth. I remember having to walk some distance from the nearest bus stop back in 2017.

Right now, I have the following dates booked:

London May 27-June 2 (staying on points)
Bath June 2-5 (Airbnb I booked last December)
Harrogate June 11-16 (airbnb I booked last December)
16th travel to Mancheter to depart on the 17th (airfare is alread booked)

I chose Harrogate as it seemed like it might be a little calmer with good day trip options. For the train from Bath to Harrogate, I thought we could spend the day in York before continuing on to Harrogate. If we liked it enough, we could return from Harrogate
When I started to figure out where to go from June 5 -11, this is when my whole itinerary became overwhelming. Partly because I thought I wanted to go furher east past York so that seemed to be back tracking from Harrogate, but maybe it's not so bad to do that for a day trip. And then I second guessed myself that 5 days in Harrogate is way too long anyway So I could shorten it, stay in York for 2 days to go to Whitby.

But I have run into traveling quandries on going from Bath to Harrogate because I need to fill in 6 days. Stop at Chelthenham? Nottingham? Leicester? If I go further south, then the leg to York/Harrogate would be really long. But from the 5-11 is almost a solid week. Would Chester after Bath be too far before heading north to Harrogate/York? Which made me start to think maybe just skip Harrogare/York entirely and focus on areas around Bath before heading towards Manchester.

So that is why I came back to maybe I should just spend a full 10 days in London and go to Bath as a day trip, Windsor, Hampton, Hever Caslte, Kew Gardens, wanter around, maybe a day trip to Norwhich and then just take the faster train to York. I could spend 10 days in London on points which would be thousands in savings on lodging, leaving more $$ for food and sighte and trains.

I forgot about the airport in Newquay could be an option if after Bath we did spend some time in Cornwall.
I live in the middle of nowhere in California so anything is a welcome change for me. London would be the main large city of the trips and small villages towns after would be fine.

Which brought me to what if we headed south from London and made our way west towards Cornwall and up through Bath and ended in Manchester. I would have to cancel the Bath Airbnb and try to find other accommodations for an overnight as we pass through Bath and only stay the night there.

ugh

So that is why I came back to maybe I should just spend a full 10 days in London and go to Bath as a day trip, Windsor, Hampton, Hever Caslte, Kew Gardens, wanter around, maybe a day trip to Norwhich and then just take the faster train to York. I could spend 10 days in London on points which would be thousands in savings on lodging, leaving more $$ for food and sighte and trains.

I would do something more like this like Bath first from the airport for 2-3 days, take day trips to Stonehenge and the Cotswalds maybe. I've been trying to plan a 1st time trip to London with a 15 & 11 year old and 10 days would be very easy to fill, especially with visits to the castles. I just spent a week in Norwich last August and it was such an amazing historical gem, I would love to go back. I didn't make it to all the museums and the castle opened (after 5 years of renovations) the day after I left! :( You could easily spend a full day there not counting the 2-3h train ride there and back.

And then I think how cool would it be to go to Penzance!!

I love Penzance as a base for exploring West Cornwall - but unless you’re planning to spend a few days visiting St Michael’s Mount, Mousehole, Cape Cornwall, maybe the Minack Theatre, ancient stones, old tin mines, it’s probably not worth the trip as a destination in its own right.

There are plenty of great seaside towns all around the coast that don’t involve hours of travel to the far end of England.

Shrewsbury and Chester have attractive half-timbered architecture. Chester works as a base for day trips into northern Wales, where you'll find nice scenery and castles. I loved Bodnant Garden, a wonderful National Trust property south of Llandudno Junction, and was able to get there in 2017 by public bus, though it wasn't a quick process.

I am leaning towards Shrewsbury and Chester now. My daughter gets overwhelmed and doesn't have as much stamina to switch towns every 1-2 days. Although I am thinking of staying in Conwy, it seems we could make it a day trip from Chester. Or, take the direct train from Shrewsbury to Conwy for the night to see the gardens and castle and then make our way towards Chester. I do love the booking I have (refundable) in Harrogate though.

I too would suggesting swapping york with Chester. Similar in many ways and slightly easier with your travel plans. Direct train from there to Manchester airport.
You could take day trips to Liverpool and Llandudno/Conwy for Bodnant gardens. Maybe even an overnight stay.
If there are two of you, look at buying a Two together railcard for a 33% saving on off peak train fares. Cost £35 but may save you more.

The Two Together Rail Card seems like it would save money, given how much ground you're likely to cover, but wait till you have the itinerary locked down before you make a final decision.

At the time I was in Chester (2017?), there was a regional rail deal (possibly also covering buses) that extended into northern Wales. I think it was a per-day thing. I don't know whether it still exists.

The North Wales Day Ranger still exists, however I can never make it stack up financially, especially with a railcard. The zonal boundaries have been very cleverly drawn to ensure you need more zones than you really should, most variants of it no longer have a railcard discount, and it is no longer rail + a Red Bus Rover (as it was called before 1Bws). Also we now have last minute advance train fares.
Now the North Wales Day Ranger only covers selected buses (so excludes almost all the Traws Cymru routes), unlike 1Bws which includes all buses.
Its a great shame as it was a very good ticket, but there you are, time changes a simple easy to understand, value for money product.
http://railrover.org/pages/north-wales-rover.html
The period version- the 4 days in 8 North and Mid Wales Rover does give railcard discount, and includes the Traws Cymru routes, but not the Snowdon Sherpa routes. So that might work, but it's too complicated- http://railrover.org/pages/explore-north-and-mid-wales-pass.html

Where it might work is the discounts on the Great Little Trains of Wales. But what those discounts actually are is seemingly a state secret and you now have to pre-book the two big steam railways- the Ffestiniog and the Welsh Highland. You can't just walk up and wave your pass. Frustrating is the word.

I too would suggesting swapping york with Chester. Similar in many ways and slightly easier with your travel plans. Direct train from there to Manchester airport.
You could take day trips to Liverpool and Llandudno/Conwy for Bodnant gardens. Maybe even an overnight stay.
If there are two of you, look at buying a Two together railcard for a 33% saving on off peak train fares. Cost £35 but may save you more.

I stayed up until 1 am last night doing a deeper dive into this part of the UK and I have decided to scratch York. After Bath, we are now going to Cardiff for 2 nights. It was going to be a day trip, but now we will just stay the night to see the castle and St Fagans. From there to Shrewsbury. Can you recomment how many days for the town and any close day trips and to just relax and absorb the area?

From there, to Conwy for day trips to Bodnant, Llandudno, Caernarfon Castle, and/or Betws-y-Coed. Also can you advice on how many days to stay there as well ? I am also thinking 2-3 days.

From there, to Chester for the remaining days with options for a Liverpool day trip before the train to Manchester Airport the night before the 10am flight.

Honestly, I mostly chose York because everyone seemed to be saying its a must see on the way to Edingurgh which is where we were originally departing but I felt like with so much to see in England, I changed it to Manchester. But I like now being able to see both Wales and England with the main focus on England.

For the 2 for 1 railcard, I haven't been clear on one thing... do I buy 2 tickets and it prices in the discount? Or do I buy one ticket and the other person tag along with their card and ID?

The North Wales Day Ranger still exists, however I can never make it stack up financially, especially with a railcard. The zonal boundaries have been very cleverly drawn to ensure you need more zones than you really should, most variants of it no longer have a railcard discount, and it is no longer rail + a Red Bus Rover (as it was called before 1Bws). Also we now have last minute advance train fares.
Now the North Wales Day Ranger only covers selected buses (so excludes almost all the Traws Cymru routes), unlike 1Bws which includes all buses.
Its a great shame as it was a very good ticket, but there you are, time changes a simple easy to understand, value for money product.
http://railrover.org/pages/north-wales-rover.html
The period version- the 4 days in 8 North and Mid Wales Rover does give railcard discount, and includes the Traws Cymru routes, but not the Snowdon Sherpa routes. So that might work, but it's too complicated- http://railrover.org/pages/explore-north-and-mid-wales-pass.

Where it might work is the discounts on the Great Little Trains of Wales. But what those discounts actually are is seemingly a state secret and you now have to pre-book the two big steam railways- the Ffestiniog and the Welsh Highland. You can't just walk up and wave your pass. Frustrating is the word.

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I was trying to see if we could go from Shrewsbury to Conwy via Porthmadog, but it seemed that getting a one way ticket on the seam from there to Caernarfon is not something one can book in advance. :( And if we took the Cambrian LIne from Shrewsbury and got to Porhtmadog and couldn't get a one-way ticket, It seems the only way then to Conwy is to go back through Shrewsbury? I was sort of seeing if we could add the route in this itinerary map but it doesn't seem like a pre-bookable one-way option. So I think we will just need to take the direct train from Shewsbury to Conwy.

https://www.ontheluce.com/wales-by-train-itinerary/

What you would do is to check if it is a day when 'The Harbourmaster' Train is running on the outbound leg (at 1005)- https://www.festrail.co.uk/the-harbourmaster/
or the Snowdonia Star on it's return leg (at around 1pm ish)- https://www.festrail.co.uk/snowdonia-star/

You then book a single ticket by calling/telephoning them on 01766 516000.

The ticket is collected at Porthmadog Harbour Station.

A somewhat quaint way of working in this day and age. Whether they accept a one way depends on whether they expect to be booked out with return tickets.
The other way of doing it would be to mirror the route on the Snowdon Sherpa buses- the S4 from Porthmadog to Beddgelert then the S3 to Caernarfon.
You can also change off the S4 at Pen-y-Pass onto the S1 to Betws-y-Coed then the 19 to Conwy.

Is the route from Shewsbury via Porthmadog well worth the time? And expense? I saw they mentione calling to book one way, but I thought that surely had to be old information. LOL

I think your latest plan is very good. Cardiff is just over an hour from Bath by train. Note that if you are going to St.Fagans - which is about a 30 minute Bus (Cardiff Bus 32) ride west of the city centre, that the site is quite big and needs at least half a day - that the last bus back might be at 3pm and no buses on Sundays. Obviously you need time for the city centre and Cardiff Castle and perhaps the National Museum of Wales and Cardiff Bay. If you want to see medieval (1100’s) castle - take the short train journey N of the city to see Caerphilly Castle - buy real return tickets to get 2 for 1 entry. I see you are going in May and this is when the rhododendrons & azaleas are in flower. If you do go to Caerphilly, suggest you get off the train on the return journey at Lisvane & Thornhill and take a 5 minute walk into Cefn-Onn-Park where you will see a wonderful spring woodland garden (free).

https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/ticket-types/rovers-and-rangers :> check through this website to see if any of the rover deals are cheaper/more convenient as opposed to buying tickets. Also check out the Ffestiniog Round Robin ticket - which includes a one way trip on the Ffestiniog Railway. (The alternative is the Sherpa Buses from Porthmadog to Bettws-Y-Coed via a change at Pen-Y-Pass).

Shrewsbury has many historic buildings but I am not sure about staying more than 1 night. I do suggest that it is worth leaving for north Wales via the Cambrian Line going west to the coast and then up to Porthmadog. If using the Ffestiniog Railway, you might find Minffordd an easier place to switch trains but do look on Google Maps to see where the 2 stations are located v the situation at Porthmadog. Also consider staying in Porthmadog if you wish to see Portmeirion.

When in the Conwy/Llandudno area - suggest you take a local bus to Bodnant Gardens. I visited in May when the amazing Laburnum tunnel was in full flower.

Chester is a good swap for York and convenient for getting to Manchester Airport.

Readers should note that Wales has a separate section on the RS Travel Forum. The information given here applies to both England and Wales.

Here is a British TV programme about the Cambrian Line now loaded on You Tube.

Yes, it is worth both the time and the money from Shrewsbury to Porthmadog- especially after Dovey Junction it is a very good coastal run.

On the expense front this is what has killed the Rover Ticket. Book a few weeks ahead and it costs £11.50 for an Advance Ticket on a specific train, but if I turned up now at 0815 today, an Advance Ticket costs £18.40 on the next train out at 0930, and last minute Advance Fares on every other train today- quite normal.
Take the railcard discount off the £11.50 and that becomes £7.65- a bargain in anyone's books for a 3 hour 20 minute trip.

For Cardiff to Shrewsbury try booking one of the 'Premier' trains at 53 minutes past the even hours- they convey 1st class, booked ahead it can be as little £6.50 more with a railcard. And there is the option of paying extra for a chef cooked full meal (3 courses for £30). On those trains, even in standard class, you get chef cooked food served to your seat.

On longer distance journeys I've actually got 1st class for less than standard class- last time booked less than 24 hours before travel.

To James and ISN31c:
This is all perfect and it helps with my planning. I was thinking of staying longer in Shrewsbury and then take some day trips over 3 days, but now that seems too long if Shrewsbury itself can be covered in a day.

I was going to do a day trip to Cardiff for bath, but since the line to Shrewbury passes through Newport, I think it would be better to spend the night in Cardiff allowing more time for St Fagans and the two castles. I love James suggestions for the return from Caerphilly.

Which leads to a question on if this would work:

-Direct train from Bath to Cardiff at 8:30. Store luggage
- Visit St Fagans and/or Cardiff castle
-Collect luggage, check into hotel, overnight
- Visit Caerphilly and/or Cardiff Castle (depending on what we did the day before.
- Take Direct train to Ludlow in the evening. I am considering a night in Ludlow before moving in to Shrewsbury.. And if possible, get food on the first class ticket so I don't need to worry about dinner?

I am not seeing how to book first class tickets above. I only see an option to add the 2 for 1 railcard but nothing about First Class or Premier?

If you want to see medieval (1100’s) castle - take the short train journey N of the city to see Caerphilly Castle - buy real return tickets to get 2 for 1 entry.
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What do you mean? Is this entry to the castle is cheaper if we can show the 2 for 1 public transportation railcard?

I do suggest that it is worth leaving for north Wales via the Cambrian Line going west to the coast and then up to Porthmadog. If using the Ffestiniog Railway, you might find Minffordd an easier place to switch trains but do look on Google Maps to see where the 2 stations are located v the situation at Porthmadog. Also consider staying in Porthmadog if you wish to see Portmeirion.

I am still profoundly confused on how to get from Porthmadog over to Conwy. Is a Ffestiniog Railway one way ticket also something I need to call to book, like the Harbourmaster route?

Does this sound correct (AI's info):

Traveling from Minffordd to Betws-y-Coed by train requires a journey of approximately 1.5 to 2 hours, involving a change at Blaenau Ffestiniog. Take the Transport for Wales train from Minffordd to Blaenau Ffestiniog, then switch to the Conwy Valley Line to Betws-y-Coed.

Talk about adding confusion for you-
Two preserved lines (part of the same overall railway) run from Porthmadog Harbour Station- the Welsh Highland to Caernarfon, and the Ffestiniog to Blaenau Ffestiniog. From Blaenau F you talk one of the handful of main line trains a day to Llandudno Junction (for, but not stopping at Conwy).

To do that, yes you need to call and book on either the outward leg of the 'Mountain Spirit' or the return leg of the 'Quarryman' .

You would have about 90 minutes to wait at Blaenau Ffestiniog between steam and main line train. There is no bus from Blaenau north towards Conwy , but there is a 5 minute connection into the last T22 bus of the day to Caernarfon at 1615, arriving at 1755.

Before Covid the connection between trains at Blaenau was both far better and far more frequent.

To me the Welsh Highland is the more obvious route.

So if I am understanding this correctly I could take the Cambrian line from Shewsbury to Porthmadog and change trains to get the steam train Welsh Highland route to Caernarfon. Alternatively, we could take the bus at a fraction of the time/expense. Is the bus a winding road? Is this a reasonable trip in one day without overnighting in Porthmadog? Maybe we could get lunch in Porthmadog and then catch the bus to continue on?

This might be the way to go anyway as we were going to do a day trip from Conwy to see the castle anyway. I found lodging directly across the train at Deganwy and while it isn't in the historic Conwy, it will help reduce some of the luggage hauling and still allow us to visit Bodnant, Conwy and also Llandudno if we want to spend some time there. I figured since we are staying in Bath, Shrewsbury, Ludlow and Chester, we won't be missing a whole lot not staying in medieval Conwy. And I think this is then a direct train from Deganwy to Chester.

Shrewsbury is similar to Chester, maybe not quite so much to see but definitely worth an overnight stay. My trips there have been to see the nearby Industrial museums and the fantastic Air museum at Cosford although both of these are closer to neighbouring Telford. Depends what your interests are.
I would save your Conwy trip for when you are at Chester. It's a direct train from Chester station, along the North Wales coast to the outskirts of Llandudno/Conwy. It's the same train that comes and goes from Manchester airport.
To take advantage of the Railcard, do the math(s). It will cost £35 for a Two together so check that the savings on your rail trips exceed that. I feel they would do. To get the discount, when booking or buying your ticket, tick the box that says you have a railcard and the discounted price automatically happens. You just need to have one when you come to travel. You'll need passport style photos in your phone's gallery.
Many people book their tickets on an App. All rail companies sell each others tickets so you could load say, the Northern Rail app on your phone and use that for all your tickets, stored digitally on your phone.

Caerphilly Castle- 2 for 1 entry- You need to print a voucher at home here- https://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/caerphilly-castle

and you will likely be asked to show your rail tickets, but not your railcard.

Luggage Storage at Cardiff- you will need to use one of the internet apps such as Stasher as there is no storage at Cardiff Railway Station and I don't remember any at the adjacent Cardiff Bus Station when I was there in November.

Premier Class/1st class on the train- when a train has it you will see both 2nd class and 1st class fares offered- click the 1st class- the relevant evening trains to Ludlow are the 1653, 1722 and 1853 from Cardiff. The 1653 and 1853 are trains to Manchester, the 1722 is a train to Holyhead. Select 1st class and Two for One Railcard- looking at the 1722 on 10 February, without the railcard two people in standard class are £26.10 reduced from £39.20, in 1st class are £35.80 reduced from £53.80.

Shrewsbury to Deganwy- To me it is a perfectly reasonable trip which I would do without batting an eyelid.
Yes the road through the mountains is windy, but not to me at least super windy, but then I'm familiar with the road.
If you can jump through the hoops for the steam train then IMO the train is well worth the expense, and I know it isn't cheap. I've done it a number of times- but I don't thing end to end. I've done the whole trip a fair few times, but always hopping on and off (as you could before Covid) at the various intermediate stations (I used to stay next to one of the request/flag stops). Likewise the Ffestiniog- on and off at the various stops, some of which are quite remote.
While the Welsh Highland is a modern rebuild, both lines were totally authentic lines built mainly for slate exports. The original Welsh Highland was opened just as the slate quarries went into decline, so was sadly short lived. Once a year the Ffestiniog still does demonstration slate trains.
After Covid they've made hopping on and off so jolly difficult that I would now use the bus every time. But to you it is something new, a wonderful experience. You've spent so much getting here, I wouldn't want you to skimp by not taking at least one of the Great Little Trains of Wales (as all the steam trains are collectively known) if you can make it work. I think that would be a mistake.

To take advantage of the Railcard, do the math(s). It will cost £35 for a Two together so check that the savings on your rail trips exceed that. I feel they would do. To get the discount, when booking or buying your ticket, tick the box that says you have a railcard and the discounted price automatically happens.

To be clear, when I book the tickets with the 2 4 1 railcard, I do indicate I want 2 tickets and make sure I select 2 4 1?

I am not sure it makes sense to visit Conwy from Chester as I would now be coming from Caernarfon (I think). And Bofnant Gardens are high on my list. I have been wanting to add a seaside town since I am skipping Yorkshire/Whitby.

You've spent so much getting here, I wouldn't want you to skimp by not taking at least one of the Great Little Trains of Wales (as all the steam trains are collectively known) if you can make it work. I think that would be a mistake.
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I agree and said the same to my hubby this morning. At my age, it will be the first and probably last time I make it to this part of the world. I live in a natural beautiful area in California but one can't see too much natural beauty around the world. :)

If we did the Blaenau Ffestiniog route from the Cambrian line, it seems too much to go from Shrewsbury->Blaenau Ffestiniog->Deganwy in one day? I am not that interested in Portmeirion. Could one get from Shrewsbury to Bets-y-Coed and spend the night there before continuing to Denganwy?

I have another question about traveling in Wales, should I take it to the Wales forum? This started with me moving around England but it is verging into travel questions specific to Wales.

Mostly, I am wondering if after option 1 to Caernarfon we could visit Plas Newydd House and Garden on our way continuing towards Denganwy. I was thinking Porthmadog via train, spend the night in Caernaforn to see the castle, make our way to Bangor and bus to Plas Newydd, return and train to Plas Newydd House and Garden. The problem with this is we would have luggage though traveing light and I am not sure if there is luggage strage in Bangor or if this is worth trying to do.

So maybe it's better to follow option2, and take the train Blaenau Ffestiniog -> Denagy. And then leave Caernarfon and/or Plas Newdd as a day trip from Deganwy. Maybe even go from Deganwy, spend the night in Bangor to see the two sites and from there, head straight to Chester? We likely would then miss seing Bets-y-Coed after the gardens and caslte in Conwy.

This is so extemly helpful!!!! Everyong, thank you! I was getting so frustrated with the planning! I also realized I was stuggling so bad at first with the steam trains as I couldn't figure out how to pronounce the names in my mind so it wa a barrier to understanding the routes. I looked up how to pronouce some of the names up so now it's making more sense. I decided to overnight in Cardiff as it didn't make sense to go from Bath to Cardiff back to Bath and back through Newport to Shrewbury.

Best to keep all this in one place on the England forum - even now a good bit of your trip is in Wales.

Yes, it did not make sense to go from Bath to Cardiff as a day trip when you would have to get to Newport in any case to head north.

If you have big cases, note that lifts are available at the east end of platforms at Cardiff station. Follow the herd to the north exit.
If you find a hotel near Cardiff Central station, then surely the reception could hold your baggage prior to check-in? Also try the bus interchange which is inside the modern building immediately NE of the Central station.

If you are going to see Caerphilly Castle (local trains about every 15 minutes) and wish to see Cefn-Onn-Park (Lisvane station), you may like to have a meal at this place which is just west of the entrance to the park.

You have been informed about the Premier trains on The Marches Line - that’s the route going N from south Wales. Note that if you are getting off at Ludlow that it is only 1 hour 30 minutes from Cardiff and the chef may not have time to prepare your meal and you eat it in that length of time. (Best inform staff soon after boarding if a meal is your intention). The trains that are not Premier on this line are new DMU’s and are quite good. If you are on one of these and the number is 197113 or higher, it will have executive style seats at one end or the other and I would nab one of these if possible. (It may be marked ’standard plus’ but is at no additional cost). The ordinary seats are also fine.

To get the cheapest train fare for longer trips, it is best to book advance tickets but note that these are not available way out and you could end up paying a higher fare v nearer the date of travel. https://www.buytickets.scotrail.co.uk tells you if you are so far ahead that the cheaper fares have not yet been loaded. It also clearly marks which trains have 1st class = the Premier service trains on The Marches route. Play around with different dates to see what I mean. The Marches line goes through lush countryside for most of route.

On exiting Ludlow station, you just see some boring supermarkets. Walk to the west side of Tesco and turn left (south) and you come to the centre of town. The Feathers Hotel on the left is real Ye Olde England! Best view of Ludlow Castle is from the west bank of the river.

You consider breaking the journey at Bettws-Y-Coed which is lovely little town. However, you may like to consider breaking the journey for an overnight at Porthmadog as that is where you will be switching from the normal trains to either the narrow gauge steam train or the bus (Sherpa)? for on ward travel. The Sherpa goes on very scenic roads and it looks like 2 services have a change point at Pen-Y-Pass which is a very exposed place up in the mountains - check it out on street view.

So, it is either the bus or the steam railway to get from Porthmadog northwards. https://www.festrail.co.uk is the westside for both steam railways that go from Porthmadog harbour (which is at the south end of town whilst the normal trains are at the north end). A Premier Inn is right by the harbour station. The steam railway (Welsh highland) going NW to Caernarfon want a whopping £76.32 return and I don't see one way offered for less. The Ffestiniog going NE to Blaenau Ffestiniog want £49.75 return but say they may offer one way tickets on the day if they have space.

From BF, you could take a normal train direct down to Deganwy as trains on this route are going to Llandudno (via Bettws-Y-Coed). So, it really is your choice as to route. If going via Caernarfon, you would have to take a bus to Bangor and then train or bus all the way. Bangor is not worth seeing and the high street is rather run down.

The Travelodge in Newport (mentioned below) is cheap for a reason - nobody wishes to visit Newport!

The problem with Plas Newydd on the way from Caernarfon to Deganwy is luggage storage. I don't know of anywhere in Bangor- just had a look at Stasher and they only have the Premier Inn right on the edge of town (not very convenient). Whether other similar apps (nannybag, etc)would produce anything I don't know. I'm not sure I would stay in Bangor to do Caernarfon and Plas Newydd. I would do Plas Newydd (and maybe Beaumaris Castle) as a day trip from either Caernarfon or Deganwy. I don't think it makes a lot of difference which of those two places you day trip from.
But then if you go to Beaumaris, you would probably want to add on the boat trip to Puffin Island for the Puffins, monastic ruins and the lighthouse.

By the way for a quick overnight I can recommend the Travelodge in Newport (Gwent). You can often get it for next to nothing, and is basically straight opposite Newport railway station, so is very handy for an overnight. I was there in October and sort of wondered how I had missed it before. A budget hotel for sure so no frills.

Betwys-y-Coed is the same main line train from Blaenau F as to Deganwy, just a shorter journey. I think you could even justify 2 nights in Betws-y-Coed if you do Bodnant, the Swallow Falls, the Trefriw Woollen Mills and Llanrwst.

Once you are over the hurdle of the steam train timetables then it all comes down to personal preference of base or bases- the public transport is pretty good. Going back to the seaside towns don't of course forget Llandudno/The Great Orme and all it has to offer. It is a classic seaside resort- unlike so many it has weathered time pretty well.
Among the things to do in Llandudno is the Great Orme Tramway- distinct shades of San Francisco, although operationally it is more like the Lisbon funiculars. But a great piece of working history.

When booking your tickets, select the number required, in your case, two. You should see a box to indicate if you have a Railcard, tick that, select the type that you have, in your case it will be a Two Together type, and the 33% discount should be applied to the prices.
I'm not aware of a 241 railcard, it's best to stick to the official name, a Two Together Railcard to prevent any confusion. You don't have to have a railcard at the time of booking, just when you travel.
Caernarfon has a very nice castle but I wouldn't describe it as a seaside town. Llandudno fits that description exactly, plus there is another fantastic castle in nearby Conwy.

James,
The ultimate reason I stayed at Newport was to visit Newport Cathedral. It was planned as a day trip from Salisbury (together with Llandaff), but at under 24 hours notice had to be rescheduled when I became aware that it was to be closed on the available days of my planned visit due to the enthronement of the new Archbishop of the Church in Wales.
So I was scrabbling around 18 hours before travel looking for an extra hotel night and new Advance (cheap) train tickets on a totally altered route. I actually looked at Cardiff (where a couple of hotels were cheaper than Newport, but not as convenient).
That was a day when 1st class Advance was cheaper than standard class Advance.
Newport certainly isn't the biggest Cathedral, but has a deep history over many centuries, and the 1960's alterations makes a very interesting contrast between the ancient and modern.
I actually felt very privileged to be at the first service of the Novena of Prayer before the enthronement- one of those profound moments you simply can't plan for.
Newport is also known for the Chartist risings, if I hadn't eaten already there were several very old pubs I would have liked to have eaten in, if i hadn't eaten on train.
I can also assure you that 90 minutes is quite long enough to have a meal- I've done it between Crewe and Hereford, on a day when the service was a bit sluggish due to being a steward short. When they take your order they ask you what your destination station is, then ensure your meal is cooked and served in time and that you are ready to disembark as the train leaves the previous station. I actually wanted to be finished eating by Hereford as I had a split Advance ticket at Hereford, and was playing fast and loose with it (on a train 2 hours early) so had to be prepared to change at Hereford, back to my correct train (I don't suggest anyone else tries that one out!).
Llandaff (Cardiff) is also a treat of a Cathedral- it too had to be rescheduled due to railway engineering work on that line forcing me to use the 'wrong' station- again I was really lucky in that, by chance, I was there as they were setting up/rehearsing for a Candelight concert.
At Newport I would also have liked time to go out to the Transporter Bridge and go to Caerleon (also East Usk light and the RSPB Newport Wetlands reserve), but the hurried rescheduling made that impossible, as the whole week then fell out of sync.

It is the Castles owned by CADW (Welsh Government) that give you the 2 for 1 entry if you show proof of arriving by train. This includes Caerphilly & Conwy but also castles that are not on the railway - such as Caernarfon & Beaumaris - so hang on to your tickets! (Don’t use the contactless bank card scanners in the Cardiff area but buy real return tickets on the day to reach Caerphilly. This will also allow you to hop off/on at Lisvane should you wish to see the park).
https://cadw.gov.wales/2-1-entry-offer-transport-wales

If going on the Welsh Highland Railway from Porthmadog to Caernarfon, you could take the Sherpa Bus via the Llanberis Pass to Betws-Y-Coed for the train to Deganwy. You would need to check the May timetable to see if this works out compared to going via Bangor.

Also note that if buying an advance ticket from Ludlow to Porthmadog, that it works out cheaper to split the ticket at Shrewsbury - where you would change trains. Consider buying Ludlow to Shrewsbury at a convenient time, walk around Shrewsbury and then catch a train heading west on the Cambrian line to Porthmadog as a separate advance ticket.

isn31c (Stuart) - I have been in the cathedral at Newport as although small, it has interesting romanesque arches. Llandaff Cathedral in Cardiff is best reached by bus as the station at Llandaff is really in Llandaff north and a fair walk from the Cathedral.

The roman remains at Caerleon just to the north of Newport are indeed interesting but the transport links are poor and even confusing to reach by car - hence the reason why I rarely mention Caerleon on RS forum.

Good to hear that they can get a meals done as priority for early leavers from the premier service trains operated by Transport for Wales.

This is incredibly helpful. I am absorbing everything, looking up timetables, towns, and consulting with my calendar. I think what is emerging is I might not be able to ride the Cambrian line and do the steam train (due to one-way ticket availability and cost). Seeing the bus alternatives, right now, I am leaning towards at the least:
Shrewsbury -> Porthmadog -> overnight -> bus to Blaenau Flestiniog, train to Betws-y-coed -> overnight -> train to Deganwy.

We will just need to backtrack from Deganwy for Bodnant. Unless there is luggage storage options at the station near the gardens but I haven't seen this yet. If in a few months the steam train to Blaenau Flestiniog becomes doable, I will re-consider the 90 minute layover. If I was on my own, I might make different decisions but my daughter's needs changes things a bit.

I really like the idea of the bus from Caernaforn to Betws-y-coed suggested above, but I am not sure we could do that without overnighting in Porthmadog, Caernaforn and Betws-y-coed. This will also add another day of changing hotels and I am afraid my daughter's patience will run out. Part of my planning is traveling between the hotel check-in/check-out windows to reduce luggage issues, and identifying good bases with lots of in-town or day trip options without moving hotels every night.

2 last questions ( I think! Lol):

-Would it be possible to then do Caernaforn and Palys Newyyd both from Deganwy as a day trip? Albeit a slightly long day?

• is it worth it to visit Ludlow and Shrewbury? I know they are different and size and feel from my research, but maybe it would better to stay two nights in Cardiff and then head straight to Shrewbury, skipping Ludlow all together? I thought Ludlow would be interesting but a video walking tour I watched didn't inspire me compared to Shrewbury.

Caernarfon and Plas Newydd is do-able as a day trip, but you need to get your timings right for Plas Newydd.

Bus 5D every hour Deganwy to Bangor (or the train), then the 42 Bangor to Plas Newydd (open the timetable up to 'All Stops' to find Plas Newydd).
I've just had a sharp intake of breath seeing the 42 goes through Newborough- until very recently my godmother lived there, although Caernarfon goes back a lot longer for me, family wise (over a century).

Then frequent bus 5C or T2 Bangor to Caernarfon.

As regards Q2- if you could manage 2 nights in Cardiff, 1 Ludlow and 1 Shrewsbury that would be ideal. Or 2 Cardiff, 2 Ludlow or Shrewsbury daytripping to the other.
At the end of the day this is all personal preferences, I'm more of a Shrewsbury person, James (and a lot of others) seemingly Ludlow. I'm not saying I don't like Ludlow (I do) and think the video you've seen is a bit pessimistic, but unsure if I would overnight there. If it interested you then on Monday to Wednesday there is also now a seasonal bus tour from Shrewsbury to the Ironbridge Gorge- https://www.regionaltransport.co.uk/rt_016.htm

The Railway stations don't have luggage storage options- a legacy of most not now being staffed together with past terrorist campaigns.

On the steam trains single fares are supposed to be 50% of the return fares- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ffestiniog-welsh-highland-fares-for-shorter-journeys.283386/

As regards Q2- if you could manage 2 nights in Cardiff, 1 Ludlow and 1 Shrewsbury that would be ideal. Or 2 Cardiff, 2 Ludlow or Shrewsbury daytripping to the other.

I think I will go with your idea of staying in Shrewbury and day trip to Ludlow if we run out of things to do in Shrewbury. So 2 in Cardiff with the train to Shrewbury during the lodging check-in/out window. The longer train ride will take up more time and allow us to grab a lunch bite on the train if need be. I don't want to overbook our days and allow time to just wander around and do what feels right on each day. Thank you!

I will also take notes on all the buses for Caernarfon and Plas Newydd. Hopefully, we will hit a good day of weather to do both or we might need to chose one or the other.

I think it is good idea to spend 2 nights in Cardiff and take the train all the way to Shrewsbury - which is bigger than Ludlow. I would favour Shrewsbury over Ludlow.

https://bustimes.org is a good site for finding up to date information about buses - just click and then select the correct region.
https://www.traveline.cymru is a good site for finding public transport in Wales but best to use the train websites for rail. (Leave out the cymru and you get Traveline for the rest of Britain & some of Wales).

You said you would not use the Cambrian line to Porthmadog and I am a little confused as to how you would reach Porthmadog? Perhaps you are thinking of going by train to the Llandudno area direct from Shrewsbury via Chester? I suggest that the Cambrian line is the best option for seeing more of Wales (although slower and longer) especially as it actually goes along the coast from Dovey Junction northward. For example, it crosses the Mawddach estuary at Barmouth.

I would not stay a night in Blaenau Ffestiniog as it is a miserable former slate mining town. The Ffestiniog steam railway station is right alongside the normal train station at BF. If you don't want to use the expensive steam railways between Porthmadog and BF or Caernarfon, there are always the cheaper buses. Going via Beddgelert is more scenic than the more direct bus route from Porthmadog to Caernarfon.

You have probably spotted that Tal-Y-Cafn is the nearest train station to Bodnant Gardens. Note that this is a quiet unmanned halt and you must tell the guard of any intention to alight at the place in advance. However, I would not do this as no dedicated footpath leads from here into Bodnant Gardens. The main entrance is where you see the car park and well away from the rail station. You certainly don't want to walk on the A470 which has no sidewalk (Pavement). Best to go to Bodnant from Deganwy on Arriva Bus 25 but you might have a little walk to the relevant bus stop in Deganwy from your hotel.

Hope this helps.

By the way I forgot to attach the timetable for the bus 42 Bangor to Plas Newydd- https://www.anglesey.gov.wales/documents/Docs-en/Highways/Bus-timetables/Bus-Service-42-42a.pdf?nocache=1

I will also say that Caerleon is easy to reach from Newport by bus- there are 5 buses per hour- 2 on the route 27, 2 on the route 29, and 1 on the longer distance route to Monmouth (change for Hereford and other destinations)- https://www.newportbus.co.uk/

Ordinarily for Llandaff Cathedral I would choose to use Daneswater or Faircourt railway stations (if arriving by train), as they are somewhat closer. However being forced to use Llandaff (due to the rail engineering and eccentrically routed rail replacement buses) gave me the benefit of arriving as a bit more of a pilgrim because part of the walk from Llandaff is the last section of one of the old pilgrim routes (now reborn as the Penrhys Pilgrimage Way) to the Cathedral. At the time I was having difficulty walking so arriving somewhat exhausted felt slightly more authentic, if not intentional. The Cathedral is also interesting as it was badly damaged in the Cardiff Blitz in WW2, the worst damaged Cathedral in the UK after Coventry (which of course was lost entirely and had to be rebuilt).

You said you would not use the Cambrian line to Porthmadog and I am a little confused as to how you would reach Porthmadog?

I am not sure what I said where, but I think I meant I would at least plan to take the longer Cambrian line but not commit to the steam train to Blaenau Flestiniog knowing there is a bus option.

Thanks for the heads-up on the train stop near Bodnant as I was indeed trying to see if we might somehow stop there on our way to Deganwy.

Having visited north Wales for four nights last year, which I highly recommend, I suggest staying in Llandudno rather than Conway if you go there. It's a bigger town with a lot more places to stay, restaurants, and has good transportation links. It will check your box for a very nice British seaside town. Easy day trip from there to Conwy by bus, less than half an hour away. In Conwy don't miss Plas Mawr, an Elizabethan house, as well as the castle. The audio tour at Plas Mawr is especially good. Also you can bus to Bodnant Gardens, but you need to plan that one carefully using the online schedule as that bus runs only about every two hours. We also did a day tour by van that visited several castles including Carnarfon, and Snowdonia national park.

Here is the 2026 timetable for the 2 narrow gauge steam railways that operate out of Porthmadog - you need to check your date carefully.

Having visited north Wales for four nights last year, which I highly recommend, I suggest staying in Llandudno rather than Conway if you go there.

Can you share where you stayed if you stayed in Llandudno? I downloaded the bus schedule to Bodnant and since that is a must see for me, I see the bus doesn't go by Deganwy where I have temporarily booked a few nights. So for that alone, I probably should look at changing and I think a day at the beach (can you swim in the water? or is it too dangerous?) would be a nice addition to all of the things we will be seeing.

Here is the 2026 timetable for the 2 narrow gauge steam railways that operate out of Porthmadog - you need to check your date carefully.

That is a hard timetable to figure out! But I will get to it! lol I have booked our stay now from London through to Porthmadog and I am happy now with what I decided. I actually wasn't aware of how expensive London was and also Cardiff to stay so I have shifted things a bit so I could stay for free on Points. So far, I have 9 days in England covered which I am glad so I can use the money for tours, taxis, and dining. :) It did mean that instead of staying in Cardiff, we are going to stay in Bristol for 2 nights. I found a tour that covers the castles in Cardiff and Chepstow including the Abbey. This way, I have some options around making our own way to St Fagans and Caerphilly, take the tour from Bristol that covers both, or just make our way on our own to Chepstow. My daughter gets extremely car sick so my worry is being stuffed in the back of a van with a tour. It won't go well for her, or the other passengers! :-o Or we could just chill in Bristol. I did see some very interesting things nearby, but I am not sure how to get to them by public transportation.

Cardiff hosts major events as it has a massive stadium in the city centre as well as a soccer stadium SW of the city centre and the Wales Millennium Centre (Concert hall/opera house) in the Bay 1 mile S of the centre. There is also a cricket ground. When major events happen, hotel prices rocket and it could be that you have been checking such dates? Premier Inn chain and Travelodge chain seem to give the most bang for your buck with Premier Inn being the better of the two. Other hotels exist from 5* down to cheapos.

If staying in Bristol, note that the centre is rather more spread out than Cardiff and that Temple Meads is the downtown main station. Cardiff Central is the main station in Cardiff and you walk straight out of it into the main retailing areas with the castle about a 12 minute walk. Bristol has the old docks in the centre and it is here that you will find the SS Great Britain = world’s first iron screw driven ship and well worth a visit. Usually nearby, you will see the ‘Matthew’ = a reproduction of the ship that John Cabot sailed in from Bristol to discover Newfoundland and the east coast of N America.

It is easier to reach Chepstow by train from Cardiff than Bristol due to it being a direct line. The castle is about a 15 minute walk from the train station. To reach Tintern Abbey (ruin) from Chepstow, Newport Bus (69) run a service on that route.

If you are staying in Porthmadog, it is possible to walk to Borth-Y-Guest and follow a path west from the harbour to little sandy coves. Do not go in the sea here due to strong currents due to it being an estuary. Look on Google Maps.

It is possible to go in the sea at Llandudno but note that the beach has lots of large pebbles. This You Tube video shows you what the beach at Llandudno is like.

The easy way to get to Chepstow from Bristol is the direct, hourly, bus T7- https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/transportforwales/NWPT/T7-timetable-20250406-187897bf.pdf

From Chepstow there is the hourly bus 69 up to Tintern Abbey (and Monmouth)- https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/newportbus/NT0/69-timetable-20240901-649839fe.pdf

If you buy an All Zones Day Ticket for £9 that covers all buses run by Newport Bus for the day

One useful feature of Bristol is the ferry/waterbus in the central area- it starts from just behind Temple Meads station- https://www.bristolferry.com/

The T7 timetable is very confusing due to Transport for Wales putting Welsh first and then English despite the fact that roughly only 18% of the people of Wales can speak Welsh and they are mainly in the north and west. At least the Newport Bus timetable is written in plain English. The odds of anyone being able to only speak Welsh and not English are virtually zero.

Being constructive, here is the Newport Bus version of the T7 timetable (as they run the service)- https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/newportbus/NT0/T7-timetable-20250406-20381a94.pdf

For many years the T7 was a stand alone route, run by Newport Bus but outside their normal ticketing system, and quite expensive. It still is expensive at £6.50 single so the £9 day ticket (which gets you from Bristol to Cardiff, Hereford, Abergavenny etc on Newport Bus is a no brainer).

When Newport Bus won a bundle of contracts in the Wye Valley in 2024 or 2025 the route was finally taken within their main network, along with the Wye Valley routes

Thank you all for the additional info from Bristol. The bus info for Chepstow is very helpful. Before making the decision to stay in Bristol, I spent some time looking at the Black and White Trail as an opinion and just entirely skipping the Cardiff area. I think we can still backtrack from Shrewsbury to Leominster if we wanted to do part of that trail by bus. I also thought a visit to Chester would expose us the the black and white architecture albeit bit in a small village.

Question:
I am making my way in my planning from Llandudno towards Chester now as we head towards the airport. What I am wondering is if we should just spend 5 days in Llandudno and visit Chester by train, or, shorten the stay and spend two nights in Chester.

If we stayed longer in Llandudno, I could work out an overnight in Betws-y-coed on our way from Blaenau Ffestiniog. Then just base in Llandudno giving us time for Caerferon, Bodnant, Chester, Conwy etc. at a more leisurely pace rather than picking up and moving for just a night or two to stay in Chester. We would take a midday train on the 16th to head to the airport to overnight for the flight on the 17. Is there any risk of a train strike? Meaning if it might be better to get closer to Manchester (stay in Chester), then, If we absolutely had to in an emergency, we could taxi or Bus to Manchester? Are train strikes common?

As regards strikes it is impossible to rule them out, but we seem to be in a prolonged time of 'peace' at the moment. There is no reason to believe there would be any, zero talk of it.
The only talk I've picked up today is of a ballot for one on the London Underground- but they have to ballot first, then if approved set dates- so it isn't exactly imminent or even really a threat as such currently.
A strike is a bridge to cross if it happens- if it did I'd be looking to go to Liverpool for buses to MAN. At a push you can go by bus from Conwy to Chester to Liverpool- takes a while but not impossible.
From Chester there is a bus to Warrington hourly, then hourly bus to Manchester for trams or buses to MAN. So you wouldn't get stranded, inconvenient yes, stranded no.

I think you can do a good bit of the Black and White trail by bus- train to Hereford for the hourly 461 through Weobley, Sarnesfield and Kington (continues to Llandrindod Wells for train to Shrewsbury)- https://www.sargeantsbros.com/media/holjmb5b/new-461-timetable-jan-25.pdf
On Tuesday and Friday there is also a 507 circular twice a day from Leominster through Dilwyn, Weobley and Sarnesfield, so you can put something together- https://yeomanstravel.co.uk/tourimage/pdf/507.pdf

Train strikes are not common. There was an issue some time ago that seems to have been settled. There are always alternatives.

I am feeling less lost in travel plans now but I have one stuck place. I found a nice inn somewhat near the train station in Llandudno that has excellent reviews and provides a good breakfast with lots of hot meal options. The room has a king bed and a small separate sitting area with a refrigerator and bath/shower ensuite option. But I also booked a two bedroom lodging above the French restaurant in Deganwy directly across from the train stop. This options has a full kitchen and views of the estuary. No breakfast is included.

I am having to really weigh in on if traveling with someone who gets severe motion sickness and wether it is wise to go to Porthmadog as we then need to make our way over winding roads to Llandudno. I have a reservation in Porthmadog, though. I emailed a taxi service about booking a taxi to get to Blaenau Ffestiniog. In a taxi, we could go slower, she could sit up front and pull over as necessary. I haven't gotten a response yet but I looked and it seems maybe Uber would be an option. Expensive but an option.

So with this cunundrum, I am thinking of spending 4-5 days in the Llandudno area after a train from Chester versus taking the Cambrian Line. I wanted to visit Chester anyway, and it seems an overnight there after Shrewbury would work better than visiting Chester after staying in the Conwy area.

I understand now how to navigate the area from Porthmadog (I printed the bus schedules people have shared and have the stream train links).

With all that being said, would staying at the more spacious two bedroom for 4-5 days be a mistake given what is around Deganwy vs staying in Llandudno in a smaller room? The costs for the lodging is about the same, although the included breakfast in the Inn becomes a savings for daily meals. I know that Conwy has its unique historical appeal, but I am wondering what choice would seem more fun for a 19 year old. Spending 4-5 days in that area will allow us to visit the castles, the gardens, the sites in the towns, and perhaps go to Betws-y-coed for the day for lunch.

So the choices are keep the Deganwy reservation, go with the Inn in Llandudno or start all over and try to find something in Conwy. I was focusing on places with a good breakfast and refrigerator or on places with a kitchen/kitchenette. It's hard to know which is more convenient, more fun for young people, more interesting in general.

The problem is that only you know your daughter.

Conwy, Deganwy and Llandudno are all within a few miles of each other, so any gives very easy access to the other two.

My gut feeling (and it's an awfully long time since I was 19) and I never married (the perils of work that moved every few months round the world at very short notice) so didn't have children thus have no more recent comparator is that Llandudno is probably more fun for her.
But if you're in the town centre by the station then you aren't where I would want to be on the seafront- only a few minutes walk away. But then again a 19 year old probably wants to be in the town centre.

Might I swap that for a river view in Deganwy?- quite possibly.

I suppose Conwy is the more interesting historically of the three.

So zero practical help for you. All three possible choices are great. Give me all three choices for myself and I probably would have to draw lots.

You have mentioned your daughter gets carsick easily. I also have daughters and a sister prone to motion sickness.

For our trip to London last fall, we talked to my daughter's physician and got a prescription for patches that you put behind your ear to help. They often prescribe them for surgery and also cruises. They last 3 days at a time and my daughter said they made a big difference on the plane, tube and trains we took.

Does your daughter also get motion sickness from planes? Mine said she does but I am not sure its motion sickness like in a car as much as just the dehydrating, disorienting feeling from flying and sitting for so long. Thank you for sharing as I had looked up some options for her but didn't know if the patches worked well. She could use them for the plane there and back and possibly for the Porthmadog leg if we go that route. I will see if we can get them for here and try them out on roads near us.

My daughter gets motion sickness on planes as well. She was happy with how well it worked and we are traveling again soon, so need to have her request a refill!!