Question about off-peak rail fares

I picked a random day and route.

East Midlands Railway London St Pancras to Derby, tomorrow after 09:40

Standard class SUPER Off Peak Single £80.80, First Class SUPER Off Peak Single £128.10.

certainly available.

Do note though that an Advance ticket, still available, for the same train is £30.30 standard, £47.50 First Class.

Where are you looking for your information?

I just used the EMR app.

I was looking through nationalrail.co.uk website. I looked at fares from London to Bath, London to York, and York to Edinburgh for example, routes which offer 1st class. Perhaps I need to use a different site?

Is your journey really London (Paddington) > Bath (stay); Bath > York (stay); York > Edinburgh (stay). If that is the case, you do not have to return to London in order to get from Bath to York. The general consensus of opinion seems to favour going Bath to nearby Bristol (Temple Meads) where you can change for a direct train to York rather than going back to London (Paddington) and have the hassle of using the underground to Kings Cross for a train to York/Edinburgh.

Note that the cheaper advance fares for specific trains usually get loaded around 10 weeks ahead - buy too far out before these fares are loaded and you will pay more. Play around with different dates. Note that peak fares do not apply on weekends. On weekdays, the cheaper fares usually kick in after 9.30am.

Consider getting a Railcard:> https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/railcards/

On some routes - such as Bath to York, it is cheaper to split the tickets. Nationalrail.co.uk won’t tell you this. Try putting in for your journeys on the following sites & see what they come up with:>
https://trainsplit.com
https://www.traintickets.com/?/
https://www.scotrail.co.uk - even though your journeys will not be on Scotrail.

This is a case where guide books over simplify matters to your detriment. What you are seeing on National Rail is basically correct, that there are different fare types in 1st class to 2nd/standard class.

Also it is complicated by changes in fare structures- for instance we have an upcoming 'simplification' of fares on Transport for Wales where certain cheaper fare types are to be abolished- effectively leading to a fare increase when fares are allegedly frozen.

The matter is further complicated by both Great Western and LNER (your most likely companies* for these journeys) having on the day Advance (train specific) fares.

• York to Edinburgh you can also do on Trans Pennine Express (TPE) and Cross Country. Whatever the timetables tell you about a change at Newcastle being needed on TPE that is not always correct- some trains are through services (although you get off and back on at Newcastle).

London to Bath- standard class has a variety of fare types, 1st class only has 1- Anytime Day Single £199.80 from Paddington, or £91 from Waterloo via Salisbury. However if I want to travel after 1036 today there are Advance 1st class fares from Paddington starting at £76.50

London to York - assuming LNER (Grand Central have different fares)- 1st class only has Anytime at £303.10 (any operator) or £295.40 (LNER only) and Off Peak £214 (NOT VALID FROM LONDON 0645-0758 M-F&1558-1745 M-TH).
But if I was at Kings Cross now (0718) I could get an Advance 1st (train specific) on the next train at 0733 for £199.80, a normal situation. Now I now that isn't cheap but is still £100 less than an Anytime.

York to Edinburgh in 1st there is Anytime any operator £180.90, LNER only £171.60, TPE only £138.90, or Off Peak LNER only £108,30, TPE only £102.10. But again the next train today at 0806 LNER Advance 1st £133.80, or the 0919 £80.30

But in 1st the other benefit is the lounges- so at Paddington the lounge is in Queen Victoria's private waiting room, even if the F and B offerings are mediocre.

With a pass you can use any lounge before or after travel, so if I have time and am using LNER or Thameslink/Great Northern (to say Gatwick or Cambridge) I will use the Avanti Lounge at Euston, because it is far superior to the LNER lounge at KC- especially at breakfast time or early afternoon.

However the LNER lounges at York and Edinburgh are a lot better than the KC one IMO.

Also bear in mind that full fares allow for breaks of journey and on LNER are valid for 2 days. So you could buy a London to Edinburgh LNER only Anytime 1st for £337 and legitimately have an overnight stop in York on the way- early train to York on Day 1, late train York to Edinburgh day 2. Two full days in York for essentially an extra £38 in fare.

So ultimately it's all about flexibility, and not having to think about the ifs and maybes.

Would I buy a pass for those 3 journeys, if wanting flexibility and not having to go through mental contortions?- you bet I would.

Thank you for these replies, although now my head is really spinning :)

Those journeys I mentioned were just a sample. All together, over a 3 week period, I'd anticipate 8 different train days, either to change location or to take a day trip. I've laid out all the potential journeys into a spreadsheet and used the national rail site to look up sample fares, including 8 week ahead fares, and the usage of either a senior rail card or a two traveler card. When we change location with luggage, we do prefer first class. However, of my 8 trips, only 4 have first class.
The math tells me, as long as I commit to some advance ticket purchases, that it is more economical to use one of the rail cards for the 30% discount and plan on limiting early morning departures to meet their requirement. But I also like the flexibility of the 8 day rail pass. I guess I have to decide how much that flexibility is worth to me. I also have considered the Eurail 7 day flex pass, especially since they usually have a sale later in the year, but I've read some posts of people having trouble with the codes not working at the turnstiles.

The pass not working the gates isn't a problem. If gates are in use there legally has to be an agent beside them, so just show the pass to the agent.
Many gates are set to not work if it is a ticket requiring manual validation, such as a railcard reduced ticket- the agent is meant to check the railcard- the gates actually present an error code to the agent to tell them that. In practice most agents don't know what the codes mean, so just use their staff cards to open the gate and wave you casually through, often with a wry smile.
I very, very rarely have my railcard checked- when it happens it is always on train.

I had a 14 day continuous 1st class pass earlier this year, and had far more gate failures than working- quite often they would work to let me into the station, but not out of the same station, when breaking my journey there.

There is one station near me where that always happens, even on normal tickets- lets me in, but not out.

That often happens with shorter term regional passes as well.

In the 14 days the only problem I had was my last train on my last day- at Haymarket (Edinburgh)- the agent refused point blank to open the gates, and told me to get a replacement ticket. I responded by ordering her in no uncertain terms to do her job, and open the gates. I was not missing that train and waiting an extra 2 hours for the next one to satisfy her, when I had had the same error a few hours earlier on arrival.
That was a truly exceptional and isolated incident - one I have never, ever encountered before. She was very lucky I didn't have time to take her name and file a formal complaint.

Thank you, that's good to know. If the Eurail passes have a black Friday discount again this year, the price would be comparable to my best case scenario of individual advanced ticket purchases, making the Eurail Pass an attractive option.