Southern Trains !! STRIKE SUSPENDED !!

Nigel, thank you so much for alerts and updates like this one. I think many of us (all?) appreciate the trouble you take to share your knowledge of the railway system and so much else. You're one of the really valuable contributors here.

In September we'll be taking trains from Oxford to Salisbury and return, then Oxford to London, then London to Penzance, then Bath to London. I'll keep my eyes open for any stoppages or delays, but I want to thank you in advance for your on-the-spot knowledge and helpfulness.

I saw an article about this a month or so back telling about the cut services and whatnot...it also said what a yearly pass costs for the trains and I can understand why people are so horribly upset and frustrated...all that money and nothing but delays and cut services...I feel for these folks! Can't live in the city because it's priced beyond reach for many, but if you have to get into the city to work...not a good situation...

Nigel - what is the safety procedure the company is trying to remove?

Nigel - what is the safety procedure the company is trying to remove?

Short answer - the safety responsibilities of the train Guard.

I try to provide just the facts that affect tourists, without getting into the to and fro that such disputes bring, but I have been asked a direct question and would like to elaborate on an answer previously given by another.

A Driver is responsible for moving the train safely from A to B. They need all their concentration to do that.

A Guard is responsible for the safety of the passengers (and other staff) on board a train.

That includes dealing with ill, vulnerable, sleeping and unruly passengers (hopefully not all at once) and looking out for the welfare of all.

The most dangerous place for passengers is what is called the Platform Train Interface - the PTI. It is that bit of the world between the edge of the platform, and just behind, the gap between (with the change in height) and through the doors into the train.

The Guard is uniquely able to position herself or himself where they can see the entire length of the train - as many as 12 cars - and the approaches to it, and can see that the entire train is safely accommodated in the platform (yes, sometimes drivers make mistakes and door could be released from which passengers could and have stepped out into thin air) and that before closing the doors all passengers are clear of the PTI and the train can be dispatched safely.

In case of an accident the Guard is responsible for the passengers and the Driver the train, but if the Driver is incapacitated or unable the Guard is fully trained in the technical requirements of protecting the train.

In my many years on the railway I have seen people fall down the gap of the PTI and had their lives saved by the prompt action of Guards, drunks leaning on the train as it started to move, and drunks and vandals attacking the train before it moved, and vandals setting fires, attacking passengers, urinating on the seats, and much more - all invisible to a Driver - but where Guards have stepped in and saved lives and property.

Station calls are much more difficult on curved platforms and at night in the rain.

That is just a few of the safety duties of a Guard, and there are commercial and revenue protection duties too.

What Southern want to do (and Great Western Railway right after them if they succeed) is remove the safety responsibilities (and training) of their Guards and reduce them to solely revenue focussed.

It is much more than pressing a button.

Which of those duties would you, as a travelling passenger, like to do without?

Mind the gap!

Nigel,

From what you've described, it sounds like the Guard has a crucial function related to safety, and it's incomprehensible that anyone would try to change that. This reminds me of a phrase that was often mentioned at Union meetings - "one can't interfere with management's right to mismanage their own affairs".

Hopefully someone will regain their sanity and reverse this decision.

There have been long debates over the safety of DOO in rail forums and elsewhere, which ultimately don't come to a firm conclusion because there is no absolutely conclusive evidence one way or the other. Those advocating each side of the argument can be very passionate though.

Worth mentioning in passing that DOO is already used on many services. The government ultimately is going to be behind expansion of its use.

DOO mentioned by Marco - Driver Only Operation.

Nigel, I agree with Dick and thank you for posting information on train transportation issues!

Nigel, thank you for the great information and advice you are always contributing! And thank you for your great advice on buying train tickets you gave me for my May 2016 trip to London, Salisbury, and Stratford-Upon-Avon! Very much appreciated!

Since you specifically got into the safety issues on the trains, I have a question for you. When my husband and I were leaving London after our visit in May, in order to get to Heathrow, we did the following. We left Tower Hill on the District Line. We took this to Earl's Court, crossed the platform, and entered a Piccadilly Line train which was sitting in the station with doors open. I quickly boarded the train, husband was behind me. Suddenly, the door closed behind me. My husband's left arm (with suitcase in hand) and left leg were stuck inside the door. The rest of him was outside the door.

The doors were firmly closed! My husband and I struggled to force the doors open, to no avail. He dropped his bag, and tried to just slip his arm and leg out the door. Nope; door too tight. This was getting scary! Two large men seated on the train saw what was happening, jumped up, and forced the doors open just enough for my husband to slip through. Whew!

My question to you, Nigel, is: What would have happened next if the large men had not helped us?

Would the train have pulled away from the station with my husband being dragged along?

Would the Driver of the train have gotten an alarm that someone or something was stuck in the doors, and released the doors? Would he have halted the train until all the doors were clear? Or can he even know when that happens?

There was no guard in sight, and the two men who helped us were not train employees.

The rest of our tube journey went fine, and we arrived at Heathrow in plenty of time to catch our flight back home.

Nigel, if you can tell us what would have happened next, I'd sure like to hear it! Thanks!

P.S. My husband said to add that his theory is that the "warning" sound that the Piccadilly tube train doors were closing occurred while we were crossing the platform. We did not hear the warning ping, or we would have not entered the open doors. We would have known the doors were closing soon, and stopped and waited for the next train. That was evidently our mistake.

One other factor was that we had both been very sick for two and a half weeks, with a pneumonia-like illness I think we caught on the plane on the way to London. At the time we were trying to catch this train, we both had a high fever, and were woozy from the illness. No doubt, this was a contributing factor.

Nigel, exactly as you said in your above post:
"The most dangerous place for passengers is what is called the Platform Train Interface - the PTI."

With as much as an arm trapped in the door, there would be a warning light visible to the driver as well as he/she checking station CCTV / mirrors etc.

Trap and drag incidents as they are called happen usually when there is something much thinner in the doors - fingers, coat, scarf, bag strap etc. where it may be much less obvious immediately.

Newer stock such as those operating on the Circle / Met / District has a special tongue and groove device in the doors that breaks the circuit preventing the train from starting.

Rebecca

I don't know in your specific case, but there is a chance that the interlock would have been broken and the driver might have opened the doors to try to clear the obstruction, but there is also the chance that the outcome could have been less pleasant.

As part of a safety briefing I saw a video just a couple of months ago of a recent case of a woman being dragged, and her result was not good.

Modern trains and tube trains all have an interlock system where the train can't operate with a door not closed, but systems malfunction, people make mistakes. Having an extra pair of eyes is safer.

All tube trains in London lost their Guards many years ago.

There would have been what is called a hustle alarm, a warning that the doors are about to close warning sound for a short period before the closing on the Piccadilly Line train.

Nigel, I hope you know how much we all appreciate you.

Nigel, thanks for your reply! The hustle alarm that would have sounded before the doors closed, I am afraid, was sounding while we were running across from the other train. We never heard a warning sound. We had just run across the platform from the other train, so we thought we were getting through the doors in plenty of time. The doors slammed shut fast, not slowly.

A warning to any of you using the tube in London....don't do what we did. We were just in too much of a hurry to get to Heathrow. We did not slow down and remember to use caution.

I do not not think this train door thing would have happened to us if we had not been sick and woozy from the past two and a half weeks of illness. We were in no condition to be jumping on and off trains!

Nigel, that is what I am afraid would have happened...the outcome not good. There was no sign that the train doors interlock feature was interrupted by my husband's arm being in there. The door was shut very snugly and tightly. I am afraid he would have been dragged.

I feel terrible for the woman in the video that you saw.

Maybe not you, but there are people that are unfamiliar with train doors that think they operate like lift (elevator) doors, ie they reopen if they are going to close onto something. In reality they will carry on trying to close, at least initially.

As well as the beeping alarms, stations with platform assistants will in general remind people to 'mind the closing doors'. It is also good practice never to try to get on as soon as the door starts to close, particularly if the area around the doors is crowded..

Mrs EB Did you read the article you quoted? Which part of the changes the company is forcing through would help you as a tourist the most?

Nigel,

Thanks for posting this! I'll warn my friends who will be traveling to London in a couple of days.

Rebecca, what a horrible experience for you & your DH... Thank goodness for the 2 men who helped you!

Always be cautious when abroad & you are not familiar with how things work. In the UK, this particularly applies to crossing the road. With trains, it should be noted that the doors will often close about 1 minute before the scheduled departure time. Also beware with the toilets on trains as some people are entering and then not pressing the lock button!

UPDATE

It may spread.

Next week there will be a ballot among staff on Gatwick Express and Thameslink, all parts of the same group, and in the same franchise from Government.

UPDATE - the strike is going ahead and starts today. In addition to Southern expect difficulties with Gatwick Express.

Apparently this is projected to be the longest British rail strike since 1968.

update - developments over night and this morning.

The Company has called for urgent meetings with the Union.
The Union has offered to suspend the strike for tomorrow and Friday if the Company agree to negotiate with them "with no strings" attached.

The report is that before the strike the two sides were very close to an agreement but that was vetoed by the Government so the strike went ahead.

The Government has a big stake in this as they are trying to force through the McNulty report which they got to sanction their plan to continue the Thatcher plan to weaken the unions, and a big blow would be to remove Guards off all trains in the country which would weaken the RMT and ASLEF (the Drivers Union).

So this really is a battle between the Union and Government, with the Company doing what it is told to do, and being reimbursed by Government for their losses.

As Southern goes, so goes the country. If you plan on using trains in the short to medium term it is worth it to stay in touch.

Keith you are always so moderate.

Facts come out as things progress - now it is obvious that the Government is behind it.

And yes, it is still about safety. Safety of passengers and safety of crew.

I don't take sides - like you do - I report facts as I know them. Nor do I label individuals or groups.

FLASH - The last two days of the strike for Thursday and Friday of this week are now suspended as the Company and the Union are re-entering talks. Information from ACAS - the independent Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service

You can't just magic up train crew and trains where you need them so I would not expect much return to "normal" today, but stranger things have happened.