London Pass

Everything else you have posted is to extract the last penny value out of things, and you are apparently staying in Denmark Hill, in Zone 2.

I don't see what value you would see in this overpriced, bloated, wasteful product. It overcharges because all the transportation is based on being in Zone 6, you will be traveling into London from Zone 2, and doing it for 10 days - so wasteful - and most of the "attractions" on this product are free for the general public to enter.

What attracted you to the London Pass? Maybe you see something I have missed....

if there's 2 of you or more, use the 2 for 1 offers:

http://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/

Hey Nigel, you really don't have to be such a total snob about everything. I have been on this site today for the first time in awhile and both (of the three I have read) have replies by you that made me think what a jerk you are. People come on this forum to ask advice not to be berated for not knowing things. Oh, and BTW, the London Pass is advertised on virtually everything you get in the states as far as doing research goes. I did some research and decided not to buy it, but seriously, take a pill or something and chill out.

Well, cmontroy, I remember helping you with some of your questions previously.

In this case the poster, in 10 words, asked for opinions about the London Pass. I gave mine - that it is often a waste of money - and knowing from helping the poster several times recently know that saving money is a big issue for her, suggested that it is a bad idea.

What, exactly, is your problem with that?

Having not seen the shores of the US for 2 decades I have no idea about the advertising. If they advertise so much maybe that's why they cost so much and are such a bad value.... gotta make that money back ....

Nigel, you have in fact helped me before, which is why your pompous attitude is so uncalled for. You suggest that Pepita has tried to extract "the last penny value out of things" which makes sense since she is trying to pay for a trip of a lifetime for 6 people. Can you blame her? You also don't see what "value you would see in this overpriced, wasteful product" which clearly indicates her ignorance of that fact and is, in fact, the reason she was asking. I can assure you that not knowing that it is all of those things, it sounds pretty good to the average tourist and must be why it still exists. Please understand that the average tourist from the U.S. has really no idea what London is like and tries to do the best they can. I applaud people, myself included, for asking for help. You are in a position to help and for the most part you do, but lose the attitude, because it is not helpful.

Thank you cmontroy for expressing my position better than I have. I am trying to budget our travels carefully because paying for everything x 6 requires I do so. I do not extract every penny in every situation. If spending more makes sense for my family - i.e. a private tour of an important site or large taxi to the airport - I am prepared to pay. But it seems silly to me to pay extra on public transportation only because I am ignorant of better options.

I do not "get" London public transport and its pricing; it seems more complicated than other cities I know. I did not know if the London Pass made sense because I did not know if it held some not-apparent value that I should consider. I am claiming ignorance and trying to rectify that through asking questions.

I appreciate all of the helpful answers and wish that only posters who are happy to help with my ignorant questions would reply to them. Everything seems easy and obvious to a person who already knows how to do it. If you are that person, please share your knowledge with understanding, patience, and kindness.

Thanks again.

As others have said before, the travel option is unecessary. It covers zones 1-6 and you only need zones 1-2.

You're making it harder than it needs to be by trying to find the cheapest options. You have 6 people staying in a location outside of central London with slightly inconvenient travel links and your options are some combination of weekly travelcards and PAYG on Oyster since you will be there for 10 days. Your two youngest children will travel for free on TFL services, so you have to pay for transport for 4 people.

I am not insisting on the London Pass. I only asked about it in case it was a good option I should consider. I now understand that it was a stupid question.

I get it that I am staying outside of London. I am not complicating things. I am asking for clarification.

My only question is: What is the least expensive/most efficient way to get from Denmark Hill into London each day for two adults, two teens, and two kids.

If someone would answer something along the lines of: The least expensive/most efficient way to go from Denmark Hill to London is to ... Buy 4 Z Cards online then take bus X to station X, then hop metro Y to station Y and it will cost you 10gbp each way each time, that would do the trick.

The problem is that you haven't supplied some info for people to give you a considered reply. For example you haven't said when your travel is (important for example if you are going to get Zip Oyster cards for your children), whether you want at all to go out of Zone 2, or what travel arrangements you have for arrival or departure in to London, (presumably the day before and possibly after your 10 days), or even whether you are interested in the 2-1 national rail admission deals.

It wasn't a stupid question, it's just a waste of money because you will be buying something you don't need.

Take the Overground one stop west from Denmark Hill station to Clapham North and then transfer to the Northern Line to get to where you are going for the day.

A 7-day travelcard for zones 1-2 will give you unlimited travel on the tube, Overground, and DLR in those zones and buses in all London zones. Your two younger children will ride free. It costs £31.40 for adults. That is less than £5 per day per person. Child rate is £15.70.

Do you want to take advantage of the National Rail 2 for 1 admission offers? Someone posted a link above. If you do, buy four 7-day PAPER travelcards at a National Rail (train) station. Each person will need a passport sized (not quality) photo. Your 14 year old can get a child rate ticket.

If you don't want the 2 for 1 discount, purchase your travelcards at a tube station and they will be on oyster cards. There is a £5 deposit for each card that you can get back at the end of your trip. You can pay adult fare for the 14 yo, or get a weekly child rate paper ticket, but I think you would have to get that at a National Rail station.

Once the 7 day travelcards expire, for the remainder of your stay, you may buy one day cards or use PAYG on oyster which caps at a little less than the rate of a one day travelcard.

Thank you, Miranda. That's perfect. Got it!

As I have indicted on the other thread, children over 5 do not travel free on the main lines from Denmark Hill, so if using them you would need to get a child's ticket. Northern Line trains from Clapham North mostly go round the Bank loop of the Northern Line which may mean changing again at Kennington if you want the other.

As mentioned earlier or in a response to a related thread, please be aware that the rules for children tickets and adult peak time restrictions are different on National Rail trains - in this case either a white painted Southeastern train or a green painted Southern train from the Overground orange painted tains on often the same piece of track at the same station. You really have to be clear on them. They are enforced by Penalty Fare Inspectors and Guards and Conductors, and the fines are large - minimum £20 per wrong ticket on National Rail, minimum £50 per wrong ticket on buses, trams, Underground and Overground.

Children have different ages on the different systems and the ages that teenagers have different tickets is different too. It would be helpful to have the ages the children will be at time of travel, and if the two adults intend using the 2 for 1 Daysout promotion.

Overground is a trade name for the inner London commuter trains painted orange and has nothing to do with whether they are above ground at the time. It is a trick of the naming but Overground trains spend part of their life under the surface, and Tube trains - London Underground to give it the correct name - spend most of their time above ground, except on the Victoria Line wich never reaches the surface.

As you say, forewarned is forearmed.

It would be so helpful to us trying to help you if you would say where in London you intend to go on your 10 days, and how you intend to get to your hotel from your arrival point in London and how you intend to leave.

London Transport is complicated and difficult and many solutions can be found for questions. It is rare that a simple take A to B and then C for £Y is the only or best answer.

And we haven't yet begun to address weekend travel.

Please tell us when this trip is so we understand how much time pressure there is. and how much engineering work there is likely to be.

Ok, just so long as you admit that it is complicated! :) In other cities you just buy a pack of metro tickets at a discounted rate and ride pubic transportation without handing over your first-born ... which in this case would save me money.

I am renting an apartment near Denmark Hill from late July to mid-August. It fit all of us and was 50% less expensive than anything else I could find so that's why.

We are arriving into St. Pancras. Upon arrival, we need to get on a train to Hastings. Upon our return from Hastings we need to get to Denmark Hill. In the end, we are departing Heathrow. During our stay in Denmark Hill, we would like to do the following in ANY way that makes sense:

British Museum
Big Ben
The Globe
Tower of London
The V&A
The Tate
Churchill War Rooms
Buckingham
Westminster (for a service)
London Eye
London Bridge
Harry Potter Tour
Catch a train or tour for a day trip to Oxford
Catch a train or tour for a day trip to Bath
Catch a train or tour for a day trip to Cambridge
Catch a train or tour for Windsor Castle

We are great walkers - 5-10k a day is easy peasy. Buses are always easier than trains because of the stroller so we prefer that whenever possible. Sometimes a taxi is a better (cheaper and/or more efficient) option for us if it fits all of us. We can travel at whatever time of day, we have no restrictions there. Kid ages: 16, 14, 8, and 4.

If I missed answering anything, please let me know.

Thank you.

Now that itinerary opens up a whole host of new possibilities. I presume with all that rail travel (and children!) that you have already considered the Friends and Family Railcard, which gives a 34% discount on adult fares and a 60% off child fares at a cost of £30. In London this reduces the cost of the Zone 1-6 travelcard to £5.30 and the child travelcard to £2 or thereabouts (if needed).

Your train journeys to Oxford, Windsor, etc could start from Denmark Hill via the main line, and have the above discounts.

You can travel from Hastings to Denmark Hill with a change at Sevenoaks.

The limit is starting after 9:30 weekdays.

That information is very helpful.

Marco is right, much of your movement can be made by National Rail, and it is likely that you will get familiar with several of the various private train companies. England trains are divided into over 2 dozen privatized train companies which all paint their trains differently and use different kinds of trains but which operate quite similarly.

Tying all these together is National Rail Enquiries which has loads of information about stations, railcards, routes, trains, disruption, engineering work on each line, and train companies. You might bookmark them at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ and they have a mobile site as well, as well as a very good app. All the British train information I write on this Helpline I get from that app or website - or my own memory in many cases.

As Marco says, you will almost certainly save loads of money by using a Family and Friends Railcard which is all explained at http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/ It will save you loads of money.

Note that for journeys entirely within London and an area designated as Network Southeast - for the trips to Watford and Hastings, at least, you need to use the card after the morning peak travel times.

It would be very helpful if we knew when the arrival at St Pancras International is, and what time the reservations at the Harry Potter Experience is. BTW - if the reservations aren't made for the Harry Potter yet it may well be too late.

We will look at the other train trips shortly.

Thank you.

Arrival at St. Pancras at 16:00. Can I purchase the Family & Friends card at the station when I arrive and before purchasing tickets to Hastings?

I have not booked HP experience but the dates I am interested in (early August) are available. We can go at non-peak times.

We have a morning departure - 9-ish from Heathrow.

It's good to know that we can do day trips from Denmark Hill.

One thing to keep in mind, about this forum on England. This was our 9th trip to Europe and our first to England, the day that I got Rick Steves book on England I knew this would be the hardest trip we have ever taken. For those of you that live there or have been it seems a lot easier once you have done it. So I would say gather the info you can and then you have to figure some of it out as you go. I would hope in the future the people in "the know" would just help out and keep the attitude to themselves. I have seen this before on the Rick Steves Forums and Blogs and we are spending our hard earned money to make the most of our vacations and not waste the time we are there figuring it all out. And England is a very expensive trip for Americans to make. Isn't this the point of "Europe through the back door".

" I would hope in the future the people in "the know" would just help out and keep the attitude to themselves."

Attitude?? More English sarcasm I would of said, probably comes out better face to face than written down.

Arrival at St. Pancras at 16:00. Can I purchase the Family & Friends card at the station when I arrive and before purchasing tickets to Hastings?

Yes, you can get the Family and Friends Railcard at St Pancras International. As you come out of the Eurostar arrivals area into the station turn right following the signs to the booking hall and Southeastern Trains.

Make sure that when you check in for the Eurostar, in Brussels or Paris, that you are checked in well in advance of the strictly enforced 30 minutes prior to departure cut-off. With a party of 6 and associated luggage I'd make it closer to an hour before departure. If it is Paris the Eurostar departure lounge is upstairs across the station from the tracks near the street. There is one escalator and one lift.

Back to London. You need to move reasonably quickly, and depending on where you are sitting in the Eurostar train it may take a bit of time to get to the front of the train. You then need to get to the Railcard and collect or buy your ticket to Hastings, unless you have printed it out. You can then go upstairs to the 16:40 black Javelin high speed train provided by Southeastern Trains to Sandwich and Margate. Go 3 stops to Ashford (17:18) and then take 15 minutes to change to the 17:33 Southern train to Brighton; go 4 stops to Hastings at 18:13.

If you are lucky you will just miss the rush hour.

If you are arriving at 16:00 from Paris it will be the non-stop from Paris, but if it is the 16:03 arrival from Brussels then it will stop at Ebbsfleet International at 15:45 where you can also connect onto the Javelin without going all the way into London - both trains call there.

Thank you Nigel for the detailed explanation of how to get from London to Hastings. I will be printing and using it. Thank you to everyone else who posted to help me out.