Input needed on England trip in early spring 2024

You don’t need to separate Northumberland/Borders and Hadrian’s Wall, they are essentially the same area, so you could use some of those allotted days to Devon and Cornwall, which you will need as the are so far south west. Also, a better order might be London, York, Northumberland, Peak District, Liverpool and then Devon/Cornwall. At the moment your plan has you zigzagging from one side of the country to the other. Have fun, it sounds like a great trip!

My wife and I just returned from our third trip to the UK and must tell you how wonderful Liverpool is, and not just for a Beatles fan like myself making the pilgrimage, You will have plenty to see and do in your three days.

I assume you are going to Leicester to see the cathedral and tomb of King Richard III, as well as the Richard III Visitor Centre next door.

Leicester Cathedral is currently closed for renovation.
Due to reopen "in the autumn of 2023" but who knows if this will be finished on time.
Watch the following websites, to see whether they will be done with the construction by spring.
Yes, I know your visit is not until spring 2024.

From their website,
https://leicestercathedral.org/
"We have temporarily left the building until autumn 2023 as part of our Leicester Cathedral Revealed project, but we continue in our mission and work - worshiping in St Nicholas Church, St Martins House, online, and in the city and county."
And...
"Tomb of Richard III: Visiting the Tomb is not currently possible. We will update with more details on how to visit when we can."
https://leicestercathedral.org/opening-times/

The Richard III Visitor Centre next door is currently open.

Leicester got deleted from my spring (2023) trip plan for England, and now deleted from my fall (2023) itinerary, for the reason above. Leicester Cathedral and the Richard III Visitor Centre are "must see" sights for me someday....but can't happen this time.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the construction project will be finished by next spring, and hope the cathedral has reopened. Best to know about this situation ahead of time, so you can be checking the website when time for your trip gets closer.
I will also keep checking, and will post a notice on the England Forum when I see the reopening announced.

How long would you like in Leicester? Cathedral / car park for R-III by any chance?

Hi Mardee,

After spending time in York (wonderful), we took a bus out to Pickering on the edge of the North Yorkshire Moors for a couple of days. One day we took the North Yorkshire Moors Railway to Goathard and took a hike up on the Moors from there. It was a lovely day.

We are not big Harry Potter fans but our kids were and it was fun to discover that the station in Goathard was used as the Hogmead Station in the movies.

Amanda, thanks for arranging the destinations better! I figured my order would be wrong. :) And I like the idea of spending more time in Devon and Cornwall. I have not been to that area at all, and am really looking forward to seeing it. Plus I'm a huge Agatha Christie fan.

Brian, thanks! I am looking forward to it. She's been trying to get me over there for a while now and I'm so excited I get to visit them.

Rebecca (and Nigel), yes, I love British history and took a class last year at UMD on early modern England, which included Bosworth Field and Richard III (in fact, I wrote a paper on Bosworth). So I would love to see where he was dug up and also visit his current internment at Leicester Cathedral (if it's open, knock on wood). So I don't need a lot of time there. Thanks for the links, Rebecca! I will keep checking on the status.

Katie, thanks! That sounds like a wonderful outing! And I'm a Harry Potter fan, too, so it would be fun to see.

Rebecca, with regards to Oxford, I don't know. I was reading a lot about how Oxford is best enjoyed overnight instead of just a day trip. But I'm not sure what it would be like in late March or early April - certainly not as crowded as it gets in the summer. Maybe I should just stick with London, see the things there that I want (including Oxford) and then set off from there.

I disagree that Leicester is not a day trip from London.
Frequent trains from St Pancras to Leicester taking 1 hour 3 minutes to 1 hour 11 minutes, depending on stopping pattern.

Advance fares from £11.45 each way with railcard.

You could stay overnight in Leicester, then pick up the car. Although it's only 20 minutes by train to Derby from Leicester and transpeak bus to Bakewell and Buxton, pick up a car in Buxton.
There's a branch of Enterprise in Buxton.

Stuart, thanks! That's good to know and that sounds like a good idea. Of course, if I can't get into the cathedral because it's still closed, then it will be moot. :)

"I was reading a lot about how Oxford is best enjoyed overnight instead of just a day trip."
I would say this about a lot of places, including Oxford.
The advantage of staying a a night or two in some towns is that the bus tour people (and day trippers out of London) leave in late afternoon, and the crowds are gone.
You are then left to walk around the town in the evening in peace and quiet, and have dinner in a restaurant where many of the customers will be locals.
I would say this about Oxford, Windsor, Stratford-Upon-Avon and many other places, such as villages in the Cotswolds.
Your itinerary will develop over the next couple of months and you will decide what seems best for you about traveling to Oxford.

I would say this about Oxford, Windsor, Stratford-Upon-Avon and many other places, such as villages in the Cotswolds.

Absolutely! But you know this.

And I don’t know how much time you are planning to give Devon/Cornwall, but a week definitely wouldn’t be too much. And an area where the car will be extremely useful. Some day I will get back and give it the time it deserves.

You may want to see Blenheim Palace, just north of Oxford. A city bus will take you there. It's a magnificent country house. Winston Churchill was born here while his parents were visiting relatives here.
https://www.blenheimpalace.com/

When in Liverpool, you may want to see the Walker Art Gallery. It has an excellent collection. It was a favorite place to go for the young Beatles, Paul and John (and early bandmate Stu Sutcliffe), who loved art. In recent years, Sir Paul McCartney has had some of his artwork displayed there in special exhibitions.
https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker-art-gallery

You may want to visit Bosworth Battlefield and its visitor center:
https://www.bosworthbattlefield.org.uk/

We just returned from 3 weeks in England and Scotland. To recover from jet lag and ease into our trip we took Oxford Bus Co. from Heathrow to Oxford, after reading on this forum how easy it is. We stayed in Oxford and did a city walking tour, visited the Ashmolean Museum (it is fantastic) and took the city bus to Blenheim Palace. The bus to Blenheim drops you off right at the end of the road leading to the palace and was very easy and Blenheim is definitely worth seeing. One of our Saturday train trips was cancelled due to construction works so we had to reschedule. We bought advance tickets with the Two Together railcard so we purchased first class. We felt service was better on weekdays and trains were less crowded so I would probably try to avoid traveling on weekends if possible.

Rebecca, I definitely plan to stay at least 4-5 nights in each area with a central base hopefully. Still not sure about Oxford but as you said, it will work itself out. And Blenheim Palace is a definitely possibility. i wanted to stop my first trip but decided not to, and I've regretted it ever since. Bosworth Field would be very interesting to see and I would love to stop there - the history of that encounter with Henry and Richard is so fascinating. And thanks for the info on Liverpool!

TexasTravelmom, yes, I am most excited about this part of the journey and I could definitely do a week in Devon and Cornwall, thanks!. And I will also have a car by this point. I think I will probably pick one up north of London and just continue with it till almost the end.

Carole, thanks so much! That sounds like a very workable plan! I have been wanting to see the Ashmolean Museum forever!

The fun way to get to Bosworth Battlefield on a weekend is to catch Bus #153 from Leicester to Market Bosworth (which is a circular route) and then the preserved Railway line to Shenton Station, which is a very short walk from the Battlefield.

Or if you have the car by then drive to the end of the preserved line at Shackerstone, and use the train.

[Shackerstone is not easily accessible by bus- but if you did it would be from Atherstone- which is a minor station on the West Coast Main Line from Euston served by the LNWR local trains- that bus route also serves Twycross for the Zoo- this note is for the benefit of others]

Since it is the history related to Leicester you are interested in, it would be beneficial to visit on a "Heritage Sunday", the last one of the month, where some buildings are accessible which aren't in general and there is a system of guided tours available. An example of the former is Leicester Castle, the Great Hall being probably the oldest aisled and bayed timber hall in England (and amongst the finest surving across Europe). Richard III was the last king to stay there.

The brochure for this year: https://www.visitleicester.info/dbimgs/Heritage%20Sunday%202023%20Brochure.pdf

Leicester is definitely possible as a day trip from London, but if you also want to visit Bosworth Field then it is some distance to the SW of the city and it might make more sense to do both by car en route to the Peak District. Or train to Leicester and then pick up your car for the rest of the journey.

Note that an archeological investigation a few years back found that the battle didn’t happen exactly at the heritage site that’s been turned into the visitor attraction but a couple of miles away - but you can see the battleground from the Bosworth Battlefield heritage site, and there’s an interesting museum and a lovely walk there so it’s still well worth a visit. I was lucky enough to be allowed to hold some of the shot from the battle when I went for a behind the scenes visit (for work).

Hello Mardee ! Since you'll have a car , which is a must for The Peak and Cornwall , a few things to look at - This short video is an engaging visit to Castleton , in The Peak - https://youtu.be/o_iWtKN043o and this one hour documentary on Chatsworth House -https://youtu.be/lF9qKPDg9sA I'll be back to The Peak in a few weeks ( staying in Buxton , and bouncing around there for a week , before heading up to The Wall , and into Scotland ) While youre in The Peak , if you are so inclined , Matlock Bath is an interesting stop , and particularly the Masson Mill and museum , one of the late 18th century textile mills designed by Sir Richard Arkwright - https://youtu.be/IoV4OpqUDLw

isn31c, thanks so much! That does sound like fun! I'm really hoping that the tomb will be open by the time I get there. I'd like to put off getting a car until I have to, so it sounds like it would be possible to get to Leicester by public transport, take the bus to the Battlefield, and then rent a car from Leicester and head onward.

Marco, that sounds wonderful! Unfortunately, it looks like the Heritage Sunday doesn't start until May and I will be there in March and April. I wonder if I contacted them that they might let me see some of the inaccessible buildings when I'm there. I guess I could try; after all, nothing ventured, nothing gained! :) Thank you!

Golden Girl, thank you! That's what I was thinking - maybe do public transport to Leicester, see the sites there, and then rent a car for my other destinations. And I actually did know that the battle was in a different place - believe me, I read so much research on it before writing my paper for the history class I took, lol! But I'm happy to see all of it! And that is so neat that you got to hold some of the shot from the battle! Definitely something to remember!

steven, thank you for the videos!! Those all look wonderful and I have nothing to do today but research my trip, so I will watch them all. I'm very excited about seeing The Peak again - I was there for such a short time back in 1996 and loved it, so I'm really looking forward to exploring the area. Thank you!

Hi Mardee,

is it the plan to drive from Liverpool after visiting friend all the way to the Southwest? If so, can I just mention what an awful adventure the M6 is from Liverpool all the way down until it joins with the M5 just north of Birmingham at what is (accurately) described as "Spaghetti Junction". Once on the M5 you start pretty much down the pretty steep for a motorway Lickey Hills where many a caravan has come to grief when the driver of the car pulling it couldn't stop the swaying before it flipped and or jack-knifed. I always give plenty of room to any caravan on the M5, at least as far as Gloucester. Then when you get to Exeter the M5 abruptly ends and no motorways penetrate further into Devon or Cornwall so you are then stuck with the A38. And stuck is not a word I chose at random.

You might consider the train to London or Birmingham for a connection into Cornwall and then pick up another car there??

We loved the Hadrian's Wall area on our trip in May/June. We stayed here in one of their cabins: https://www.twicebrewedinn.co.uk/sleep
We also ate dinner there twice and were pleased.

All three of these stops are definitely worth a visit if you're a history buff:
Roman Army Museum - there is a walking path from here to a section of the wall
Housesteads Roman Fort
Vindolanda

Hi Mardee -

First off, Leicester Cathedral being closed and thus access to Richard lll’s tomb being denied is an outrage and adds even more fuel to the argument that ‘this glorious sun of York’ should have ‘come home’ to York after his discovery in the Leicester Council car park! The chorus of ‘we wuz robbed’ in this part of the world which has persisted since Shakespeare’s ‘history written by the winners’ hatchet job has just grown louder (again!).

Have you seen ‘The Lost King’, the film about his body being discovered? I know the Archaeological Dept at Leicester University have protested loud and long that it’s not accurate, but it does have the ring of truth about it! Methinks they doth protest too much and the essential facts aren’t altered.

As regards Hadrian’s Wall and Northumberland I’d keep them as separate entities. We hiked the length of the wall one time (still got my T-shirt which dubs the wall ‘The Final Frontier’ which, as something of a Trekkie always makes me laugh) but found that we needed to go back for another non hiking week later to do justice to the museums and archaeological sites that we couldn’t either visit or do justice to while yomping across the country. I’m not suggesting you hike all the wall but it is worth accessing the wall from the Steel Rigg car park (near the Twice Brewed pub) and wander in either direction from there - going east takes you above Crag Lough and through Sycamore Gap (steep!), towards Housesteads, the most photogenic part of the wall.

Northumberland is very big and very empty for the most part but there is plenty to keep you occupied for at least four or five days there, so I wouldn’t skimp on it.

York and The North Yorks Moors are my neck of the woods, so if you need any suggestions or info on the area, please feel free to ask. I won’t go on here about what you might do as I’m sure you’ve already got it figured out and this response might contravene the Geneva Convention if I’m allowed to ramble at length! One thing - a car is as much use as a chocolate tea pot within the city of York itself and parking one without swingeing costs, unless your accommodation has free parking, is nigh on impossible. Just linger near the ticket machines of any of the city car parks to hear outraged cries of “how much?!!” It might even be me!

Ian

P.S. Pedants Corner. It’s ‘sun’ or ‘son’ dependent on which version you read. He loved a pun did old Will and either works, so unless we have his original handwritten version, either applies! Its ‘sun’ on my quote t-shirt from a Shakespearean theatre company, so there!

Nigel, you know, that is an excellent idea. I like the idea of breaking up the car trip. I could drop off the car in Liverpool since I won't really need it there (and probably would not want to be driving around Liverpool). It sounds much nicer to take the train down rather than drive that horrendous mess. Thank you so much!

Patricia, thanks for the tips for Hadrian's Wall - I am really looking forward to visiting those stops! And thank you also for the link to the cabins - I will check them out! I'm not booking anything at this point till I get my flights squared away but it's good to know of some options. :)

Ianandjulie, thank you so much for all that fascinating information. I have not seen the movie but have been to the website of the Richard III Society and have heard both sides of the coin regarding Ms. Langley's search for him. I enjoyed the discussions very much. I do think Yorkshire has a right to be upset that his body was not returned to York. After all, it's sort of sad that his final resting place should be near his defeat and death. And then, as you noted, Leicester cutting off access to his tomb.

Thank you also for the tips about Hadrian's Wall and Northumberland. I doubt very much if I will (or could) walk the length of the wall, but I would love to see the bits you talk about. I remember having to park at the car park outside the city on my last visit to York in 1996 and I'm sure you will hear my cries of outrage also, as I HATE to pay for parking no matter where I am. :) I appreciate the offer of more help and will definitely take you up on it, as I get closer to the trip. Thank you again!

Just to be ultra pedantic Nigel the junction of the M6 and M5 is not spaghetti junction. That is the junction with the A38 into central Birmingham a little further south.

I'd seen Leicester Heritage Sunday marketed here as every month, but then again it might just be because it is summer at the moment. Leicester Castle is a Dr Montfort University building these days which is why it is limited access. Still at least now there is more regular access as for a long time it was one day a year! Can still go to St Mary de Castro, the Guildhall, the Newarke etc.

While I do not remotely encourage domestic UK flights, for environmental reasons, it is hard to argue against the fact that Easyjet fly from Manchester to Newquay (Cornwall) in just over an hour, with base fares starting at £17, widely between £20 and £30 each way.
That saves the better part of a day and hugely more in fuel costs when driving, or a long and expensive train journey on Cross Country trains or on National Express. Manchester Airport is easily reached from Liverpool, in an hour or so.
If driving then Gloucester Services is by far the best on the M5, being run by the same people as run the award winning Tebay services in Cumbria- with farmshops as well. Totally different from a normal motorway service station.

Marco, thanks. I will email them and ask about it. Maybe they'll extend it next year? But thank for all the references and potential sites. I can't wait to visit there!

isn31c, that's a thought, although I'm wondering if my bags will up the cost a lot. I honestly don't mind taking the train - it's not something I really get to do in the states and it's nice to just relax and read or play around on my iPad. But it is something to think about, so I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. It would certainly save time! Thanks!

Regarding the expense of parking in York; you may as well choose a hotel with parking, and stay awhile, as there's lots to see in York.
I recommend the Minster Hotel, 60 Bootham Street.
http://www.yorkminsterhotel.co.uk/
The entrance to the car park is to the right of the front door, through the archway.

They have a private car park behind the hotel.
Hopefully, no one is buried under it.

As long as we're talking about hotels;
In Oxford, there is a great hotel across the street from the Ashmolean Museum, the Randolph Hotel, which I highly recommend. As mentioned upthread, the Ashmolean is excellent.

You may find some of the short tours from this company useful.
Rabbies Tours.
We have used them and so have many others on this forum.
One, three, or five day tours, to many of the destinations you have on your list.
Have a browse through their website:
https://www.rabbies.com/en/england-tours#seetour
There's a lot of driving on your trip, and it may be appealing to you to take one of these tours and take a break from driving, perhaps midway through the trip, or at the end of your trip, after turning in the car.

We have used some of their tours to places we'd rather not be driving. You have excellent guides to tell the history of places you'll be seeing. Small vans. Small groups.
After doing most of our last trip to England by train, we took a couple of these tours.

This fellow gives an excellent tour of Hadrian's Wall. Many of the members on this forum have gone on his excellent tour.
Hadrian's Wall Tours with Peter Carney, retired history teacher:
https://www.hadrianswall-walk.com/
https://www.hadrianswall-walk.com/?page_id=507
https://www.hadrianswall-walk.com/?page_id=1902

The official visitor guide for Hadrian's Wall Country:
https://www.heartofhadrianswall.com/

Mardee, I’m too much of a newbie traveler to England to give any earthshaking advice, but I just wanted to chime in and say I am so happy you get to go back!! 😊

Rebecca, I should hire you as my tour guide! :) Seriously, thanks very much for the hotel recommendations - they sound wonderful! And that is a good idea about finding a place with parking amenities. Also, thank you for reminding me about Rabbies - I actually had a tour booked with them when I was in Scotland this year, but sadly, they wound up cancelling it and I couldn't do the substitute. But I know they are good and I forgot all about them also being in England. I will definitely check out their tours. That's a good idea.

Peter Carney is another name I've heard - I think Carol (now retired) is the one who has raved about him. I had sort of forgotten about that so again, thank you for mentioning his name. I will check his site out. Thanks for all the information you've provided!!

Mustlovedogs, thank you so much!!! I am so happy to be going back! I have a very special place in my heart for England.

Mardee, I also want to say I am happy you get to go back to England!

Rebecca -

Did you inadvertently breathe in as you navigated the archway into (and out of) the Minster Hotel? I know we did on our visit last year! Kept a close eye on the wing mirrors too!

Ian

Ian,
We traveled by train, with no car, but I did watch as some others made their way through!
Yes indeed, with about half an inch to spare on either side!
The good part is the hotel is in a quiet area of town, and the parking area is not in an area where one's car might be broken into.

Rebecca, thanks so much! I can't wait!

And you and Ian made me laugh about the parking! Luckily I always get the smallest car available since it's just me and a couple of bags. But I will be wary, lol!

Mardee, I think you know I'm a newbie to visiting Hadrian's wall but just wanted to tell you 2 of the access points we used with Mark in May. He parked the van at Cawfield Quarry (nice parking lot and toilets there) then we walked east from there to near the area that IanandJulie mention.

There is also a segment where you can walk ON the wall. It's short and I do not know why it was exciting to me to walk ON it, but it was. You do not have to pay entry to the Housesteads Roman Fort unless you want to go into the ruins. You can pay the parking fee (EVERYWHERE) and walk toward the fort, then along the left side to access the gate at the top of the slope for the wall.

https://goo.gl/maps/zBmWhs1i6rWmHNBE6

Depending on your level of interest, there is a Temple of Mithras ruin less than 5 miles east of the Housesteads Visitor Center. The humpy looking hill between it and the parking lot is an unexcavated Roman Fort (but the link shows the terrain viewed with LiDAR)

https://goo.gl/maps/XKJnv3EweTZgPaY79

https://production.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/temple-of-mithras-carrawburgh-hadrians-wall/history/

Since you are going in March/April, I wonder if it would be better to do Devon and Cornwall first, then go north from there? Might be slightly better weather? I'd go with what the forum folks who live there suggest...just a thought and it might not make much difference.

What a fine time you will have!

Pam, thanks so much for all the Hadrian's wall info! The last time I was in this area (in 1996), I saw parts of Hadrian's Wall but didn't take the time to do much research and didn't stop at the Roman Fort or any of those places, so I am so excited about seeing all of that now when I have some time to enjoy it!

That's not a bad idea about starting the trip in the south. All I would have to do is reverse it. :) Maybe I'll post a question just about that and whether it would make a difference. Thanks for picking up on that!

As Pam has asked the question, I don't think the weather makes a lot of difference.

The north (Hadrian's Wall Country/Lake District) can be anything at all at that time of year from snow still on the ground on the higher fells, to tee shirt weather.

This year I didn't have to put down grit all winter at home until the end of March when we had low level snow. When that happens it is normally transitory (an hour or two)- this time it hung around like a bad penny for days.

Other years it is tropical at that time of year in the Lake District.

The benefit of starting in the south would be catching the daffodils and tulips (daffodils especially) in full bloom in the far south west, then following the spring flowers north. You just get field after field of them.

You could fly into Bristol via Amsterdam, then back out of Newcastle or Leeds/Bradford to Amsterdam (unless you've already got air fare booked), picking up the rental car at Bristol, then train from Bristol to London etc (there is a 24 hour a day airport shuttle to Bristol train station), then picking up a 2nd rental somewhere Leicester/Peak District.

Stuart, thanks! Fortunately or unfortunately, I just booked my flight yesterday and I'm flying into LHR and it's nonstop so no AMS layover (which i'm actually happy about - it's been awhile since I've had a nonstop flight to Europe). I'm using miles so I don't even know if Bristol would have been feasible.

BUT I love the idea of following the spring flowers north. That would be really nice! The last time I was touring the country was in late September. The heather was in bloom all over the place and just breathtaking. I know I won't get to see that this trip but it would be nice to see flowers. And I was planning on spending some time in London anyway, so I might as well do that.

Would it be possible to take the train to Devon/Cornwall, then rent a car once I get there? After a week in the SW, I could then take the train up to Liverpool and visit my friend, then pick up a rental car there for the rest of the trip. Does that make sense?

Stuart, good to have your input on the weather. Mardee you'd better not have Duluth winter follow you to England, but following spring north sounds appealing!

Happy you booked your flights. The direct ones from MSP to London or Amsterdam or Paris are awesome. Occasionally I've done that with a flight from Spokane to MSP.

And Easter is Easter...may not make a lot of difference. I've been in Paris over that time frame and not a lot of impact except crowds of families traveling for an Easter break.

Ha ha ha! Pam, I'm planning to send the Duluth weather to Coeur d'Alene when I leave! Seriously, I do like that idea - you are so smart!

I'll try and plan ahead and see what happens with Easter. I was in Italy once during Easter and it didn't make too much of an impact. In fact, the woman that owned the B&B my friend and I stayed at bought a huge Easter cake, which was so good!

Easter had crossed my mind, too, as well as Bank Holidays.As you plan your itinerary, keep in mind certain holidays.
London can be quite busy with tourists the week of Easter.
Some American universities have their Spring Break near this time, and London is quite the popular destination for the students.
Here's a list of holidays in the UK for 2024:
https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/uk/2024

I am assuming you will have flown home by May 6; it's a Bank Holiday.
May 6 is a Monday, so the Bank Holiday Weekend will include all weekend; May 3 (Friday), May 4 (Saturday), May 5 (Sunday).

The largest crowds I've ever seen in London were during the early May Bank Holiday. We made the mistake of going to the British Museum and couldn't even walk through it!
Much of Europe celebrates May Day, which fell on May 1 one year when we were in London.
There were dozens of buses rolling in near the Tower of London that were tour groups from France, Germany (judging from the tour company name on the sides of the buses), Italy, etc.

Check these holidays when planing your London portion.
I checked hotel prices for Easter week last year and was amazed at how high they were.

May Day in Great Britain was originally a Celtic, Pagan holiday.
It is celebrated in Scotland with bonfires and dancing that night.
"May Day, or the first Monday in May, only became a bank holiday in 1978 but its origins as a day of celebration go back over two thousand years! It falls roughly between the spring equinox and the summer solstice and Celts celebrated it as the first day of summer, calling it Beltane."

Thanks, Rebecca! And special thanks for the link to the holidays - that's handy. I do know what you mean about May Day, and I'll be gone by then. I was in Italy once on May Day. The trains were packed and if you hadn't booked accommodations ahead of time, you were seriously screwed.

At any rate, I will be there from March 18th through April 25th, so it doesn't look like too much will be going on (except Easter, of course). And I should be gone from London even before Palm Sunday, so hopefully I'll miss the crowds there. And after your warning, I think I'm glad about that!

Hello Mardee,
Good to know.

Somewhere in one of your posts (not to this thread, but perhaps a while ago) I remember seeing you comment that you were (at one time) a theatrical costumer.
Which brings up another possible destination for you. I don't know if you have any interest in Stratford-Upon-Avon. It's an interesting town. The Royal Shakespeare Theatre there may have some interesting shows in the spring.
They have guided tours of the theatre:
See "Guided Tours" here:https://www.rsc.org.uk/your-visit/guided-tours
Which includes the costume makers workshop and wardrobe.
I thought this might interest you.

https://www.rsc.org.uk/your-visit/
https://www.rsc.org.uk/restaurant-cafes-bars
https://www.rsc.org.uk/your-visit/shakespeares-stratford
https://www.shakespeares-england.co.uk/
Canal tours:
https://www.canalandrivertours.com/

Stratford-Upon-Avon is not far from Warwick and its castle.

Warwick Castle was the home of Richard III's wife, Anne Neville.
Since you've studied King Richard, I'm sure you know all about her.
The website for visitors to buy tickets makes it look as though it is a Disney-type park, but it is not. They've added some activities for summer to make it more attractive to families with children, but it is still a medieval castle in excellent condition.
Warwick Castle played a big role in the lives of King Richard III and his queen, and in the Wars Of The Roses.
There's a lot of history there; just look past all the "stuff" they've added to make it an attraction for children.

Anne Neville was born at Warwick Castle.
She is buried in Westminster Abbey--Don't forget to look for her there if you go while in London.
The fact that King Richard III buried his wife in Westminster Abbey tells me where he thought he would be buried.

Rebecca, once again, thank you! Yes, I used to work as a costumer in professional theatre. In fact, when I made my first trip to England in 1996, Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park (where I worked) was doing a production of The Notebook of Trigorin, and Lynn Redgrave was starring in it. We were talking one day and I told her I was heading to England after the show closed. She gave me so many ideas of places to see in London and elsewhere. She told me about the Actor's Church (St. Paul's) where her father was buried, and how much that church has meant to her family. She told me to see Warwick Castle and loads of other places. She was so incredibly nice.

At any rate, I actually went to Stratford-Upon-Avon back on my first trip and really enjoyed it. I saw Anne Hathaway's house and a number of other things, but no performances. However, I would love to go back. I just looked one of the links you sent and it looks like the RSC is performing A Midsummer Night's Dream, which is one of my very favorite Shakespeare pieces. Seeing a performance of that would be wonderful!

Another place I'm interested in is seeing something at the Globe. Again, when i was there in 1996, they had just started construction of it, and I was so sad that I couldn't see it. But now I can! I checked their season for this year and they have Othello on stage right around when I am there, which I would love to see!

Thank you again for all the links and information!

Rebecca, lol, read my post right below about Warwick Castle! We must have been writing at the same time. :)

Mardee, you are welcome.
Wow, you met Lynn Redgrave! Wow, I mean WOW!
Awesome! And had a conversation or two with her!
I envy you, being behind the scenes in the theatre.
I'm going to take that wardrobe tour (again) next time I go to Stratford-Upon-Avon. That's the closest I'll ever come to being backstage!

I'm going to stop posting constantly, now.
I just want everyone to enjoy visiting England as much as I do.

Ha! Please don't stop posting on my account, though! I love reading all of your notes and tips! As I said, England ranks up there at the top for me - even though I've been to many places since then, it really is special to me and I am so excited about going back. So I really appreciate your enthusiasm and knowledge of England!

Mardee,

Yes take the train from London to Penzance. The car hire depot there is outside the station door, wind your way up through the two counties and drop it at Plymouth or Exeter, for the train north.

Trains to Penzance are broadly two hourly from Paddington, but if you change at Plymouth you can do it hourly. Take the 1304 from Paddington, and you can even splurge on Pullman Dining.

Or take the Riviera Sleeper from Paddington- 2350 each night ex Saturday (although you can board earlier)- arrives Penzance at 0800 next morning. These are older cars than the controversial Scottish sleepers, very well modernised. It's a stylish way to arrive in the west, and as you breakfast next morning you have the sights of the Devon and Cornwall scenery passing you by, concluding with St Michael's Mount on final approach to Penzance. No-one has a bad word to say about them, unlike the Scottish sleeper which divides opinion. Sure it's a splurge, but an affordable splurge if there is such a thing.

At Paddington the train departs from Platform 1 where you have the Paddington Bear statue, but also Sleeper Pax get to use the First Class lounge- part of which is the restored Queen Victoria's waiting room. It's only snacks in there- not like an airport lounge but still a stylish way to start the journey. Adds a sense of occasion.
There are showers in the first class lounge at Penzance when you arrive.

From Plymouth or Exeter it's an hourly train to Birmingham on Cross Country. Then change at Birmingham New Street onto London North Western for their hourly train to Liverpool.
XC you have to choose your train carefully as many are short and get very crowded, so you want one which adds cars at Bristol. Finding good fares on XC is a dark art- they are the most expensive main UK operator by a country mile.
TBH I would far rather go Nat Ex coaches for that leg to Birmingham than XC- to me at least it's just an all round better experience.

If you dropped the car at Bristol (another 90 minutes up the M5) you could take a train to Newport (Wales), then the train to Chester through the Welsh Marches, then Merseyrail up the Wirral Peninsula to arrive in Liverpool via the back door- a much nicer route I think- slower but nicer.
The fun, but silly way, which I do for deep nostalgic reasons, if travelling at commuter times, is to get off the train at Birkenhead Hamilton Square and get the Mersey Ferry (in ferry mode, not cruise mode) across from the adjacent Woodside ferry terminal to Pier Head. That is how you should arrive in a great port city like Liverpool.
If you were very lucky at Woodside you would see the Birkenhead Heritage streetcars operating. Woodside FT has lots of places to eat as well.

I don’t understand why you want to go on the much longer journey down to Devon & Cornwall yet don’t bother with Wales - which is much nearer to Liverpool and the places in the north of England that you wish to visit?
https://www.visitwales.com

As an afterthought- if going by day train to Penzance, book yourself for arrival night into the PI which is across the street from the railway station, then cross the street next morning to pick up the rental.
On the arrival evening a nice thing to do is hop on the bus to Newlyn or Mousehole for your dinner- buses run very late. St Just is another idea for your dinner- the old mining village. You might even manage to get one of the Open top buses on your way out to St Just.

If you have time, a good day trip from Penzance is the Isles of Scilly- either St Mary's or the Isle of Tresco- the other out isles are too hard for a day trip.
Three ways to get there- the ship from Penzance, the little aircraft on Skybus from Lands End Airport (shuttle bus from Penzance station), or the only scheduled helicopter service in Western Europe- from Penzance Heliport. You can mix and match the routes.
The Isles are the warmest and sunniest part of the UK, and always the first place for Spring Flowers.
Not a cheap day out by any means, but something completely different.

I've just remembered that there is a relatively new striking mural commemorating King Richard III and the Battle of Bosworth on the side wall of a shop at 109 King Richards Road in Leicester. The shutters of other shops in the area have various depictions too but that means going by when they are closed! This is not too far outside the centre of the city over the Bow Bridge, whch itself was a memorial to Richard III erected in the 19th century.

Stuart, thank you for all this detailed information! Great info on that trains and I really like the notion of Pullman Dining! It will make me think like I'm back in the 1930s. :) The sleeper is looking very interesting as well. I will definitely check that out and see if it's in my budget (and sleepers do avoid a hotel stay, so there's that). :) The scenery sounds absolutely wonderful and my grandkids would love to see photos of Paddington Bear. And such good information about getting to Liverpool! So many options! I have to say that I like the idea of driving to Bristol and absolutely love the idea of taking a ferry into Liverpool! My friend would be so impressed, lol! This is such wonderful info - thanks again!

James, I love Wales and found it very beautiful! But I have traveled there before and since I really wanted to visit Devon and Cornwall (and haven't been there before) I opted for that. I'm a huge Agatha Christie fan, and many of her books took place in that area. I love to read and so it's always fun for me to tie my trips to literary references. I will definitely go back to Wales, but when I go, I would like to spend several weeks there exploring the places I didn't get to next time.

Stuart, I love these Penzance ideas! Thank you! I have all the tunes from Pirates of Penzance running through my head right now. :) And Mousehole! I think that's one reason I love Cornwall - those funky town names. I also love the thought of a day trip to the Isles of Scilly - that sounds pretty wonderful! And do like different. :)

Marco, thanks so much! I would love to see that mural! I'm saving that address in Google maps right now.

I'm a huge Agatha Christie fan, and many of her books took place in that area.

I’m sure you are going to Greenway on your Agatha pilgrimage. May I suggest that you also visit another National Trust property that’s very close (I did them in the same day) called Coleton Fishacre.

I don’t think it has any Agatha connection but it’s a wonderful 1920s country house, all very art deco and Jazz Age, that you could absolutely imagine as the setting for an undiscovered Agatha Christie novel. There’s a glorious garden running down to a cove at the end, and I liked it even more than Greenway because the house is so stylish and of its time.

Golden Girl, yes, I definitely plan on visiting Greenway, but I love the idea of adding Coleton Fishacre! It sounds so interesting. In fact, I just took a peep at it online and love the photos - I'm so excited about seeing it! Thank you so much for the suggestion!

You don't have time to see everything Agatha-related BUT I stayed in an interesting hotel in Harrogate with a connection to Agatha. It's the Old Swan Hotel and was where she hid out when she disappeared for 11 days in 1926.

"In December 1926 the author Agatha Christie suddenly disappeared from her home. She was missing for a total of eleven days, during which the police conducted a major manhunt, and there was speculation that she had committed suicide. The disappearance even drew other crime writers Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Dorothy L. Sayers into the search, Doyle's interest in the occult prompting him to take one of Christie's gloves to a medium. After about ten days (having checked into the Swan Hydropathic Hotel under the assumed name Mrs. Teresa Neele) she was recognised by one of the banjo players at the hotel.[6][7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Swan_Hotel

Oh wow, Pam, I've read all about that disappearance and it is such a fascinating story; especially all the guesses as to why she went there. I don't think she ever did reveal the answer. But I had no idea the hotel still existed - I will be sure and check that out and stay if it works out. That would be very cool! Thanks so much!

Anybody who watches ‘Doctor Who’ will know exactly the truth behind Agatha Christie’s disappearance!

Hahahahaha!!!! I totally forgot about that, Ian! Now I have to go see if I can find it and watch it again!

OH gosh...need to go find that Dr Who on youtube!

Mardee, if you decide to stay at the Swan, request a room on the front side of the hotel and specifically not one on the back side over the dish room. I stayed there 2 nights on my own and was over the dishwashing room so there was clattering until 10-1030P. Then started around 6A. When I joined up with Mark's tour I got a MUCH nicer room!

There is a Betty's there where you can have afternoon tea and not have to eat for at least 24 hours. Beautiful gardens and interesting area.

Thanks, Pam! Betty's sounds like it is calling my name!

Mardee,

Somewhere else close to the train station in Penzance is The Longboat Inn. I had actually forgotten about it until it cropped up in another conversation this morning, but it is across the street from the PI, and has the benefit of your money going into local hands, rather than a corporate company. Nor do their prices fluctuate wildly like the PI does.
When you factor in that their rates include breakfast they are quite fairly priced, especially for Cornwall.
Looking at some random dates this morning they seem to be cheaper on booking.com (at least with Genius discount) than booking with them direct- which is unusual.

Most of the other B and B's in town are round the headland so not as handy.

It is a pub with rooms and I haven't stayed there so it's not a personal rec.. You will see on their home page that they recommend themselves as a place to eat for PI guests!!

Mardee, if you like Midsummer Night’s Dream and are interested in the Globe Theatre, you might enjoy watching Emma Rice’s 2016 production:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2016/may/08/midsummer-nights-dream-shakespeares-globe-theatre-review-emma-rice

We were fortunate to be in London in May 2016 and saw this very non-traditional performance in person on my birthday. The whole experience—-the Bollywood touches, the interactions with the audience, Puck’s energy and mischief, the reference to “Hoxton hipsters”, the tribute to David Bowie—-was fantastic. I think my husband is still in love with Meow Meow, who played Hippolytus/Titania.

It is available on this site for a fee:

https://player.shakespearesglobe.com/productions/a-midsummer-nights-dream-2016/

But I believe it is also on YouTube for free.

Ha, Stuart, I always like a bit of self-promotion! But it does sound like a nice place to stay and I will check it out. I stayed in a few pubs on my first trip back in the 90's and always had a good stay (except for the one that left me locked in early in the morning, and I had to crawl out a kitchen window to get to my car). Thanks again, Stuart!

Oh thanks, Lola! I will definitely watch it! I do love that play and it is a great vehicle for unconventional settings. Sounds like this one is very unique and I look forward to seeing it. Thanks again!

Mardee,

I was just thinking, while watching a walking tour of Penzance and Newlyn on that Cornish you tube channel, about PK Porthcurno (formerly the Porthcurno Telegraph Museum). This is where the first undersea telegraph cable came ashore just over 150 years ago, transforming communications with India and the Empire. It really has a very important place in the history of world communications, which continues today with the broadband cables to the Isles of Scilly.

It is one of those really fascinating places. And English Heritage Members get 50% discount even though it is a private museum.

And for other readers, those who arrive by bus also get 50% discount (even if not EH members). Somewhere to start or end the day, probably due to parking issues.

And of course the Minack theatre is only a very short distance on.

Stuart, thanks! That sounds very interesting! And the Minack Theatre - is that the amphitheatre built into the cliff? If so, I have that on my list. I didn't realize it was that close to Penzance.

I actually have a question for you, Stuart, if you know this. I'm still trying to figure out where to base myself in Cornwall and then in Devon. I'm thinking 4-5 nights in Cornwall and 4 nights in Devon. But since I'm starting in Penzance, I was wondering if it would be a good option to stay there a couple of nights and use the Land's End Coaster (or one of the other Coaster options) to get around on the south coast before renting a car then heading up to someplace like Polperro or Perranporth, Is that an option?

I'm also trying to figure out how much will be open then in March. I still like the idea of starting in the south and heading north, but not if too many places will be closed in March. If that happens, I'd rather bump it back to the end of the trip.

Mardee,

I think you are going down to Cornwall around Palm Sunday (24 March). Things will be opening up by then. What would worry me about being any earlier, by local bus, is that it has already been announced that the Lands End Coaster is going down to a Penzance to Lands End only service for the winter (way too soon for a timetable yet). So not going on to St Just or around the North Coast. to St Ives. To get to St Just you would have to use the hourly 'Tinner' to Pendeen. Between Pendeen and St Ives it sounds like there is nothing for the winter.
I would imagine the LEC will be restarting a full service on 23 March but we don't know that yet.

Yes the Minack is the open air amphitheatre. If you went there for an evening performance it would have to be by car as there is no evening bus service- the last one back is around 7pm, in summer.

St Ives is far better done on the local bus as otherwise you park high above town then either walk or take a shuttle bus down to the town cinema.
The bus station is widely regarded as the most scenic in the UK (and the smallest!). The views over the bay and to Godrevy lighthouse are just incredible.

Truro, Falmouth, The Lizard and St Michael's Mount are easy enough by bus all year round, also all the towns (Hayle, Camborne and Redruth) on the A30. And day bus tickets are only £7. Again I hope the Falmouth Coaster will restart on 23 March, but that is a hope. If not a perfectly good minibus does most of the Coaster route. But if you wanted to get to Gweek Seal Sanctuary that would need to be by car as the bus is intermittent.

Polperro- I don't know how it works for residents and overnight stayers, but day visitors have to park at the village top and walk down the increasingly narrow village street- quite a long way down. I think I would rather stay in East Looe, personally (East rather than West),

Perranporth is a great bucket and spade seaside destination- full of families, lots of facilities. A resort town.

For a more villagey, non tourist place I would suggest St Agnes, 3 or 4 miles closer to Truro. Several hotels there but I like the Rosemundy House Hotel. Good local pubs in the village, several little grocery stores, a wonderful bakery, and you totally cannot miss the mining history all around you.
You've heard of cake fridges in Shetland- don't miss the fudge fridge on your way down to the beach at St Agnes.

From St Agnes you are straight back into the A30 for your journey into Devon, but if the never ending roadworks at that junction are still going on go up the coast through Perranporth to avoid them.

If you were staying at St Agnes it's worth turning off the A30 at Redruth and coming in the back way through delightful Porthtowan to avoid the roadworks.

Oh, thank you for all these tips! I will start investigating all of them - I really appreciate your time, Stuart! I am really getting very excited about this trip!

Re- the bus from Penzance to Mousehole. First Kernow (Kernow is the local name for Cornwall) have within the last week introduced brand new buses on the route, purpose designed for the narrow roads and tight turns on the route.

I rode one of those buses just last week between back from Mousehole. Such a good service - small enough to take you right into Mousehole. However, on occasion during the summer they’re using a double-decker just to make sure they’re running enough buses. The one I caught TO Mousehole was a double-decker and while it was exceptionally scenic, it couldn’t go into the village and had to do a terrifying 17-point turn before letting us off.

There is a Betty's there where you can have afternoon tea and not have to eat for at least 24 hours.

Having just had Betty's today I can attest that you're so right! I am stuffed! had about 6 cups of tea too. 🤤

Mary, your in London now? How crowded? We will be there for 11 nights in 30 days.

Stuart, I was wondering what Kernow meant. Thanks for the clarification - and the information about the buses! Good to know!

Golden Girl, when I first started reading your post, I was thinking how cool that would be to read a double-decker bus and have access to all that gorgeous scenery. But when I got to the terrifying 17-point turn, my legs started quaking! I'm glad you survived!! 🤣

Mary, wow, I can't wait to try Betty's! I do love to eat (and drink tea), lol!

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned but we have just returned from a weekend based in Middleham, North Yorkshire. Middleham Castle was where Richard lll spent time as a child. It is a ruin now but worth looking round, it is looked after by English Heritage.

I don’t want to spoil your plans by throwing another idea at you, I know how overwhelming it can be trying to prioritise however, Middleham and the area around is worth a couple of nights. With a car you could visit Richmond, Ripon, Jervaulx Abbey, possibly Fountains Abbey as well. Middleham itself is well known for its many horse racing stables and every morning you will be treated to the sight and sounds of the horses being ridden up through the village to the gallops on the moor above.

Tammy, I'm in York. I'll be in London in March.

Chris, no worries about spoiling plans! I'm always open to idea! Regardless, I was planning to be in that area anyway, since I want to visit Thirsk and other places around. I haven't decided on a base yet for Yorkshire and/or North Yorkshire, but Middleham sounds interesting, especially with the Richard III connection. I probably will be in Harrowgate and may stay there for a few nights, but still working that out. I do want to go to Fountains Abbey. I went there on my first trip to England in 1996 and it was one of my most favorite places I visited. It was so quiet and peaceful there. I was lucky and arrived before it opened and they were nice enough to let me in early, so no one else was around. FWIW, I'm not really a horse person but your description sounds lovely and makes me want to visit there. So I'll add it to my ever-burgeoning list of possibles! Thank you!!

But when I got to the terrifying 17-point turn, my legs started quaking! I'm glad you survived!! 🤣

I may be exaggerating about the 17… but from the front upstairs seat on the bus it did seem like we got very close to buildings and cars.

Mardee,

This seems to be new so I can't comment on it but there is apparently a free walking tour of Penzance at 10am on Sunday and possibly 4pm on Wednesday. You apparently meet at the walk sign outside the station. It is led by Anna, a town resident, so is genuinely a free walk done it seems just out of love and altruism for her town.
I know that people on this forum are generally dismissive of something they are getting for free. In this case I can't see an obvious catch in the offer.
Apparently she will do it as a paid walk at other times by booking.

One to research, maybe.

“Having just had Betty's today I can attest that you're so right! I am stuffed! had about 6 cups of tea too. 🤤”

😆😆😉

I got some of their special blend tea but it doesn’t taste as good at home!!

Stuart…I think the issue with free tours are the companies who are in the free tour business. They get uni students to lead them and charge them a certain amount per head then the guide has to pay that out of their tips. I’ve done free tours in Bath by the Mayor’s office and by the Jane Austen Center, neither of which are in the tour business. Your suggestion sounds like a wonderful way to see Penzance!!

Mardee, so much good advice. I'm still not through reading all the suggestions I love the idea of following the early spring flowers north. Just wanted to say York is one of my absolute favorite places to visit. I also wanted to say the suggested hotel with parking is the one the 14 Day England tour stays at and it is a nice quiet neighborhood, except during rush hour when the street outside the hotel is full of commuters. I can't wait for your trip report.

Since you are interested in Richard III, have you read Josephine Tey's "Daughter of Time?" I have read it several times and it is one of my favorite novels.

Stuart, thanks for the heads up about the free tour of Penzance! That sounds wonderful and I will try and take advantage of that. And I agree with Pam about the difference between free tour companies, and people and organizations that just want to share information about places. Can't wait!

Pam, Betty's is sounding better and better! What flavor is their special blend?

LaurieBeth, thanks for your thoughts on that hotel - it sounds great! Yes, I'm excited about following the flowers and heading to all the wonderful places. It's been so long since I've been there - too long! I have read Daughter of Time on several occasions and love it! I'm sure I will read it again closer to when I leave. In fact, that's what first got me interested in Richard III, and then the history class I took last year at the uni clinched it for me. Speaking of books, have you read The Murders of Richard III by Elizabeth Peters? It's about a female librarian who meets up with a group of Richard III admirers, who are all gathering at a remote English manor house for a murder weekend. It references Josephine Tey's book throughout, and is a fun read. That has me thinking about books to read before I go. I think I'm going to start another thread about books. Thank you!

Mardee, yes I have read it, but it was long ago and I think I need to read it again. I'll see if it is available in Kindle so I can read on my trip to Paris next month.

I love all the Elizabeth Peters books - and I'm fairly certain that they are all on Kindle.

I, too, am a big fan of Elizabeth Peters. My parents really liked her Amelia Peabody books, as did all their children. My favorite title is "The Last Camel Died at Noon."

LaurieBeth, they are all so fun! I like Amelia Peabody, although my favorite character is Vicki Bliss, and I especially enjoy her VB books that took place in Egypt. Barbara Mertz was such a wonderful author but also a renowned Egyptologist in her own right (which I'm sure you knew). :)

I loved all the books she wrote as Elizabeth Peters, but also enjoyed the Barbara Michaels series as well. There are a few of the EP books that took place in England, so I'll have to dig those out before I go. But when it comes time for my Egypt tour, I will be rereading all the Amelia Peabody and Vicki Bliss books. :)

Mardee, my parents were divorced, but still friends. I think my mom enjoyed the books because she saw alot of my Dad in Emerson. I hope she thought she was like Amelia.

LaurieBeth, aw, that's so sweet!!!

Mardee,

Pam, on another thread, has found out that Leicester Cathedral reopens on time, this Sunday so you can now add that back into your itinerary.

Here's the thread to which isn31c was referring:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/england/secrets-of-the-dead-the-princes-in-the-tower-on-pbs-nov-22-wednesday-in-the-usa

Mardee, I will suggest (while you're in York) a stop by the Yorkshire Museum to have a look at the beautiful medieval Middleham Jewel found at Middleham Castle. (The museum paid £2.5 million for it.)
Definitely worth a look after you are finished stuffing yourself at Betty's!!

Mardee and others, thanks for mentioning all these great books on this thread!!
I will be ordering some and adding them to my winter "must read" stack!

Mardee, I haven't been following this thread, so when I saw you were "stuffing yourself" at Betty's, I thought you were at Two Harbors eating pie:)

Stuart, thanks for letting me know about the Leicester mention in Pam's post!

Rebecca, thanks for the link! And I had planned on trying to visit Middleham after reading Chris21's response above so this just gives me more incentive. Thanks again!

mnannie, ha ha ha!! Everytime I read something here about Betty's Pies, I think of Betty's Pies in Two Harbors. In fact, I just passed by it Monday on my way to Gooseberry Falls SP.