HELP! It’s overwhelming

Hello - I am no expert on London, but I have been there a few times, and have been to both the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey. They aren't very close together, but if that's the bulk of your day, you can certainly do the pair. For what it's worth, I seem to recall that my wife and I spent maybe 2-3 hours in each at the outside. I also recall that there was a long line to get in to the Tower, so maybe factor that and be there early. Last thought on the tower - as long as you're doing that, you may as well be sure to get in to see the crown jewels. I think that may be a separate ticket of some sort (?). Have a great time. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in.

I've done the Tower and Westminster Abbey on the same day both on my own and on a RS tour. If you all are able to get moving early, I'd book the earliest entry for the Tower of London. RUN to see the Crown Jewels and then come back to the entrance to get on a Yeoman Warder's tour (free) so you can go into Saint Peter ad Vincula (the chapel in the Tower where Anne Boleyn is buried). Have an early lunch at their cafe then exit the Tower and get the Thames boat up to Westminster Pier. This drops you a couple of blocks from Westminster Abbey. I'd schedule the Abbey for 230 and if you are early maybe they will let you in depending on what the line looks like. This IS a full day.

You could also easily do Tower of London and St Pauls. If you walk between the two you can add in Leadenhall Market if you are Harry Potter Fans!

Then you could do Westminster Abbey and the War Rooms together as they are nearby. I would be too fatigued by that time to do another big site but the closest thing to these 2 is the National Gallery.

You could do the Tate Britain and V&A (not close together) or Tate Britain and the National Gallery (about 1.5 miles apart).

BTW, I've spent up to 5 hours at the Tower of London which I do not recommend for a first timer with a long list. There is a lot to see but you can wear yourself out. I'd do 2-2.5 hours, eat and leave. I've also spent 3 or so hours in Westminster Abbey which is long. I think the tours I've done in there have been about 1.5 hours.

I suspect you have one too many sites, lol. You can always start your list for "next time"....

London Walks has a "Disastrous London" walk on Saturdays that include the Plague. They also sometimes have one on the Blitz.

With Monday afternoon, Wednesday and Friday, you have plenty of time for 5 big sites. You could squeeze in one more on Wednesday and Friday if you don't take too long at the others you do that day. But even if you stick to two sites a day... You list six things you want to see in that time frame. Are there any on that list that don't appeal that much to your wife? If so, do that on Thursday while she is napping. There is no law that says you have to nap when she does. (My husband likes to nap every afternoon. I am not a napper, so I go out by myself and see something he doesn't care about.)

@Cala: Wife doesn’t really want to walk with a guide. I should insist, since the whole reason we’re going is to see Aiden Turner in Lemons^5 (with Jenna Coleman, who I enjoy). If they’re running Plague while we’re there, it almost seems like a must.

@Pam & Carroll:

THANK YOU

PS- at everyone else, thank you as well.

I think we're going to leave the VnA for another trip. It's the least aligned with our interests, though everyone raves about it.
Wife has rated National Gallery as her most important site, I think I've rated the Tate Britain after watching "Desperate Romantics" (there's Aidan Turner again) and falling in love with the Pre-Raphaelites. Also, while shopping for a new phone case, I was trimming the art cases to works I had seen in person, or was going to see on this trip, and John Martin's "The Great Day of His Wrath" just spoke to me.

Any rate, as noted, Pam suggested that the Tower + St. Pauls is an easier haul, and makes adding the Leadenhall Market. We're not Potterstans, but I showed my wife some pictures, and it reminded both of us of the Galleria Vittorio Emmanuelle II in Milan, which we've visited twice, and totally enchanted us. That gives us a day with Westminster Abbey and the War Rooms, which feels like a good day in that area. And an ART HEAVY day of National Gallery in the AM and Tate Britain in the PM. We also have the Monday afternoon. We could easily get the British Library in there. Or, if I wanted to get the Nap Revenge ;-), I could force march her through the British Museum then. evil laugh. I'm a lot higher on the BM than wife, but I also feel like by the time we return, they may be down to just the Assyrian exhibit, with the eventual return of the Elgin Marbles possibly opening the flood on return of Egyptian and Greek artefacts. Or maybe that's when to do the Nat'l Gallery.

Any rate, I'm a lot less panicked now, so thank you.

Max, with your trip coming up in early March, I hope you have already booked hotels.
( "we are arriving in London from York on Monday, March 6th." )
If not, it's time to book something for London ASAP.

Depending upon the area you have chosen for your hotel, you may be in a good area for taking a walk while your wife has her afternoon nap. For example, if your hotel is on or near the south bank of the Thames River, that is an excellent area for a walk.

A few thoughts:

Some of the large museums (some or all of the British Museum, V&A, National Gallery and Tate Modern) are open late (8 PM or perhaps 9 PM) one night a week. They might all be Friday, but maybe one has chosen Thursday. That might allow you to squeeze in one additional sight. In case you aren't aware, European museums tend to start pushing people out at least 15 or 20 minutes before advertised closing time, so when you read "5 PM", think "just after 4:30".

When you do go to the V&A: It is quite large; you really can't see the entire thing in one day even if you give it the whole day. Review the website to decide what you want to focus on. Allow time to move from one area to another; the floor layout and positions of staircases are not straightforward. If you're interested in the (very fine) jewelry collection, be at the museum when it opens and go there first for some time (maybe 20 minutes) before a crowd forms and it becomes more difficult to see things. That's the only exhibition area in the V&A where I felt the visitor load was affecting my ability to move at my own pace. The restaurant (lovely environment) always seems to be busy, though.

The British Museum is massive. You could maybe see it all in a 40-hour week. It is also very, very popular. It's worst on rainy days, weekends and Fridays. The ground floor (including the Egyptian stuff) is the most mobbed. The upper floor isn't as bad. If you show up about the time it opens, expect to be in line for 30 minutes or so. The line may be a bit shorter later in the day (unless it starts to rain); I'm not sure. There's a quick-food spot in the center of the ground floor. A nicer, sit-down place is upstairs. It does afternoon tea as well as lunch; reservation a good idea. Somewhere there's also a pizzeria that I haven't tried.

The Churchill War Rooms have two parts: the war rooms themselves, which don't take long to see, and the Churchill Museum. In aggregate, it's over half a day if you're really interested. Expect the war rooms to be very crowded because of their layout.

You'd probably enjoy the Leighton House because of your interest in the pre-Raphaelites. I enjoyed the interior decor with its Arabic influence (tiles, etc.)

The Courtauld Gallery has reopened. Quality art, especially Impressionists. Not too large.

Check in with us before your next trip to London so we can keep you busy with our favorite, less-known art museums.

Just be aware that when you visit the crown jewels at the Tower, the actual crown itself will not be on display. It was removed to prepare for the coronation. It goes back afterwards.

Sometimes you have to put the "suggestions" in the guidebooks aside. They don't always make sense. To maximize your time, think in seeing sites close to each other. The Tower and St. Pauls makes more sense than the Tower and Westminster Abbey. As was pointed out, the Churchill War Rooms is about a five minute walk from Westminster Abbey so it would make sense to see those on the same day.

However, ooking over your 'wishes," I'm going to suggest something different (each line one day):

Tower and St. Pauls

Westminster Abbey and the Tate Britain (15 minute walk)

Churchill War Rooms and National Gallery (12 minutes walk)

London can be overwhelming for 1st timers.

It’s my favorite city on the planet. Always changing and always the same.

First tip, slow down.

Second use Google maps to see how close “ sites “ are to each other. Make a “ must see,” list and check each site’s website for opening times.

Parliament Square consists of the Parliament Bldg with Elizabeth’s tower with Big Ben inside. Westminster Abbey. Westminster Palace. You are also near the Churchill War Rooms, Westminster Bridge and the Thames.

Big Ben is tolling again. A definite reminder you aren’t in Kansas anymore when it chimes.

Have you checked the Parliament website to see if they’ll be in session during your dates and if gallery seats are available?https://www.parliament.uk/visiting/

After visiting Parliament Square its easy to follow Birdcage Walk through St James Park up to Buckingham Palace. OR walk up Whitehall to the National Gallery. OR stroll across Westminster Bridge, snap pics of The Eye, walk thru the Leake Street Graffiti tunnel and then walk to the Imperial War Museum.

If you want to avoid the massive crowds outside the Palace and the Changing of the Guards, position yourself on Birdcage Walk adjacent to St James Park and near Spur Road. You can watch and hear the New Guard Band leave an/or return to the Wellington Barracks after participating in the Changing of The Guard ceremony.

On Tuesday when you are the Tower of London make certain you walk by the large section of the Roman Wall that is adjacent to the Tower Hill Station.
From there a 15 minute amble to Leadenhall Market. I’ve always liked the dichotomy of the architecture in this walk. Old and new. Leadenhall is the last glass covered market place in London.

IMHO places to enjoy:
Courtland Gallery
Cafe at the Garden Museum
Joy King Lau in Chinatown
Little Venice
Highgate Cemetery ( need a tour to see Karl Marx grave)
Mercato Mayfair
Shoreditch Wall Murals and Brick Lane ( if u visit try OAT coffee)
Richmond Park to see the Fallow deer. ( Now-a-days folks go to Richmond because of the Ted Lasso series.) I’ve been staying in Richmond for a few years. Simply like the area. Dinner at the Dragon’s Inn a favorite spot or the chicken wraps at Kurk Grill Bar on Upper Richmond Road in N Sheen.
Wimbledon Museum
Watching the Rowers along the Thames
The Horniman Museum and Gardens
Hermitage Riverside Memorial Garden
The Turks Head
The Anchor Tap
The Star Tavern
The Cinema Museum

PM if you have any questions. Happy to share intel I’ve garnered.

How much time do you typically spend at museums? It's an important question to ask yourself when planning your day. I tend to linger and study things in-depth. As a result, we spent almost 6 hours at the Tower. The White Tower especially is a treasure trove of history and exhibits. We spent about 2.5 hours at Westminster Abbey and I left disappointed because I wanted to spend more time, but was out voted by my wife.

What I'm saying is understand your interests before thinking you can fit 2, 3 or 4 sites into 1 day.

"and it reminded both of us of the Galleria Vittorio Emmanuelle II in Milan, which we've visited twice, and totally enchanted us."

Hahaha...well, last September I was sitting at a cafe in the Galleria Vittorio Emmanuelle and thought this looks like a bigger, more elegant Leadenhall...and more Italian. Leadenhall is not on as grand a scale as the Galleria but still a neat site none-the-less. IF you are going to use any kind of mapping app to guide yourselves, there are some really cool alleyways or as a London Guide I had long ago referred to them - "snickets". The apps may not route you on them but you can easily duck down a few and zigzag your way to St Pauls. There are some cute pubs down some of the lanes.

On this link to googlemaps of a walking route from Leadenhall to St Pauls you can see the little alleys even though I couldn't get it to route me down them.

https://goo.gl/maps/6ZhNqr7tFNVq7Xta7

Re: the V&A. I think it's a good call to defer this one to your next trip. I find this a very interesting museum but it drives me nuts. I can never seem to get "from here to there". I even took a guided tour one time to see if that would help me orient myself better in there but it did not, hahaha. There are areas where the different floors don't meet up as I want them to, lol.

To me the only time the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey work really well is if someone is determined to take a boat ride on the Thames. That is an easy way to work it in plus it gives you a break from 2 big sites. I think your plan for the Tower and Saint Pauls with a walk between will work great.

If the Tower is the end of your day, I can recommend a couple of stops to eat and relax. A 10-15 minute walk to Leadenhall Market is worth a stop. there is a restaurant on the 2nd floor that we loved. https://lavina.co.uk/venue/leadenhall-market/ or corss the Tower bridge and head south for a couple of blocks to The George for a pint. https://www.greeneking-pubs.co.uk/pubs/greater-london/george-southwark/?utm_source=g_places&utm_medium=locations&utm_campaign=HT_pubpage which has been around since the 17th century. It's claim to fame is being mentioned in Charles Dickens book Little Dorrit. If the sign at the place is to be believed, Dickens was a frequent visitor.

Well, stalking the forum does have its merits! Pam, you have helped me get the order of some sights down. We have 11 days in London ( My 3rd visit, but its been a long time) and hubby’s first so we are doing all the tourist stuff plus some more off the beaten path ( signed up for London Walks Hampstead Heath & Village).

I don't want to trigger a divorce, but it sounds like you and your wife should not be joined at the hip the entire time. You could see sights important to each person separately. (British Museum, London Walk, possibly Kew Gardens although they are really enjoyable)

Hi Max, I’m on vacation and currently relaxing after an exciting whale-watch sailing today while my husband is finishing his round of golf. The reason I mention this is because it is okay, I’ll even say beneficial to have some different interests during vacations. We have a fantastic time together and also do a few separate activities. Our conversation over dinner tonight will be exciting, sharing what happened today in our separate activities!

As we are planning a trip in England/Wales this year, I gave both of us 6 thin strips of Post-It and had us each write what sounded interesting for London. Then I pulled out the paper map from the RS guidebook, and we placed them at the locations. Some places had both colors; others had just his color or mine. Originally, I didn’t write down the Churchill War Rooms, but he had it, and now I think I will probably go with him for that one, too.

There aren’t any “must do’s”. Both of you pick out some favorites, and also 1-2 separate activities. Who knows - maybe instead of that nap, she would really like to dress up & have a relaxing high tea by herself some place in London. : )

I've learned that less can definitely be more when traveling, especially in places as history rich as London. Lingering can be a skill so I would recommend not trying to squeeze too many things in if you can help it. The British Museum is one place to not rush through as it has so much to see.

Also, never deny a nap. ;)

@Cala:

I don't want to trigger a divorce, but it sounds like you and your wife should not be joined at the hip the entire time. You could see sights important to each person separately. (British Museum, London Walk, possibly Kew Gardens although they are really enjoyable)

We're fine. I'm good with Kew Gardens. One reason we do things largely together is that we enjoy each other's enjoyment, and we continue to learn from the other's discoveries.

@AMann:

cala, the divorce might be triggered if she comes on here and reads his post and descriptions. 😉

True story, I showed her the entire post, and she laughed. 17 years of marriage tends to make you appreciate each other's dark sense of humor.

@Pam: I think we're going to do a bit of a zig-zag meander from the Tower to St. Pauls. Can hit both Leadenhall AND the Monument to the Fire. There's an opportunity to hit a Ramsay restaurant before St. Pauls, but, as you say, a lot of older pubs between the two spots.

@Allan: The George sounds very nice. Part of the rebuild after the fire, so yeah, interesting, though it's been many things since then.

@Jean: Agree that there isn't any such thing as a must-do, but given how much time I've spent with John Donne and Samuel Pepys in my 20s, and how they have stuck with me over the ensuing 25+ years, I think it'd be a shame to miss Donne's burial place at the church he was Dean of, even if it is a Wren rebuild since the time of Donne. It does have the Effigy of John Donne, designed by Donne himself, the only monument that survive the fire.

@Alexander: Yes. Yes, yes yes. Linger. Soak in the place.

@Claudia: Wow. Thank you.

@Frank II: THIS IS THE WAY!
Monday: Arrive in London @11:30 (assuming the trains are running). Good opportunity to spend two-three hours at the British Museum.
Tuesday: Tower - St. Pauls. Stops at the Monument to the Fire, Leadenhall between.
Wednesday: War Rooms + National Gallery (I shouldn't make the NG seem like I'm not interested, because I'm very)
Thursday: Kew Gardens + Lemons^5, with I think maybe a solo trip for me to Leighton House (Hat Tip @acraven) between, while wife naps.
Friday: Westminster Abbey + Tate Britain. (I shouldn't make TB seem like wife isn't interested, just NG is more appealing to her).
Saturday: Easy time trip to Heathrow for the return to Chicago.

This keeps the walking between sites a bit shorter, but also keeps us in kind of diverse attractions on each day, to space the art museums, the history and the churches out a bit.

It also matches our pace of exploration of a site.

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE. RICKNIKS (*the term I couldn't come up with on Sunday) truly do travel well, travel broadly, and share the wealth of experience. It's been 6 years since our last venture to Europe (An October visit to Venice, Turin, 5 days on a winery in Alba, and some time in Cogne), and we are excited to be Rickniks in Europe again.

Well, if you have the energy to keep zig-zagging past St Pauls....There is Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese and down a small snicket with a turn or so, Dr Johnson's house.

https://goo.gl/maps/ytJPaYzRYuaAVLKZ8

Another site to consider while zigging and zagging between Tower of London and St Paul's: St Dunstan in the East Church. It's a hidden jewel/oasis in the middle of The City and right along the way.

St Dunstan in the East is an old church with four walls and no roof, after bombing in WWII. It's now a garden-area and very peaceful amongst the hustle and bustle of the nearby high rise office buildings

https://thirdeyetraveller.com/st-dunstan-in-the-east-church-garden-london/

Here's a map of the walk from Tower to St Dunstan to St Paul's
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tower+of+London,+London+EC3N+4AB,+United+Kingdom/St+Dunstan+in+the+East+Church+Garden,+Saint+Dunstan's+Hill,+London,+UK/St.+Pauls+Cathedral,+St.+Paul's+Churchyard,+London,+UK/@51.5104674,-0.0889488,1111m/data=!3m2!1e3!5s0x487604ab4032e5ed:0xe51bf3787eb8df23!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x48760349331f38dd:0xa8bf49dde1d56467!2m2!1d-0.0759493!2d51.5081124!1m5!1m1!1s0x48760351ff31196f:0xbd3d6d2fb43ff52d!2m2!1d-0.0824601!2d51.509715!1m5!1m1!1s0x487604aca207bc87:0x3a1d3501a9af5fde!2m2!1d-0.0983506!2d51.5138453!3e2

Also, if you're up to it, climbing the dome at St Paul's was much easier than I anticipated and there were ample opportunities for resting along the way that do not block other people.
I thought the views were well worth the effort.

Enjoy your trip

Interesting thread, we're going to London in April.
My $.02:
Last time we were there we stumbled on the National Portrait Gallery, having somehow never been aware of it before. More likely read about it and decided to skip it. Anyway, it's around the corner from the National Gallery, and free, so we went in. It was one of our favorite finds, didn't take long to see, and we plan to pop back in on this visit. If you're interested in British history I'm sure you'd like it. It's easy and quick if you're already at the Gallery.

We all have to make compromises on what we can fit into a visit to London. Having been to many of the great churhes of Europe, and since you will have just come from York, I suggest you consider skipping St Pauls. I was disappointed with it. I'm sure many will disagree, however.

Have a great trip!

For me, The Tower of London and Westminster Abbey are the biggest most important sites to see. (That's just me I'm sure others have differing opinions).

I would not do them on the same day. When I see them I want to be able to linger and see everything. Otherwise though, I usually do 2 major sites per day. But these are special, and you don't want to be worrying about the time so you can make it to the other site.

You might consider the Museum of London. It has a large section on the Black Death. The museum basically tells the story of London from prehistoric times through the perspective of London. We enjoyed it very much and it wasn’t as crowded as other museums we went to.

I believe the Museum of London is now closed until 2026 as they prepare a move to their new location. The Museum of London Docklands is still open though.

@Riley: Thanks for the advice. The Very Reverend John Donne is buried at St. Pauls, and has a self-designed monument that he posed for within. As Donne remains primary among three 17th Century British authors who have stuck with me (Shakespeare, Donne, and Samuel Pepys) since I took the class in 1997 (and really, Billy Shakes was beaten into my skull from high school through college and beyond, so I really shouldn't count him)... I wouldn't want to skip it. Not expecting it to match the San Paolo in Rome(nothing does, really), San. Marco (After Dark-o, the ONLY way to see it without a thousand of random strangers), the Duomo di Milano or even Paris's Notre Dame, Sacre-Coeur, or Sainte-Chapelle (wow was that stained glass something). I learned, after getting back from my first trip to Europe, to never skip a cathedral. So, will have meaning to me, at least that monument, and climbing the dome.

@BethFL & Allan: Allan has the facts, the London Museum (Wall) is closed until they move into their new location in West Smithfield. Docklands is open, with a thing on 700 years of public executions (grisly), and a permanent on the Triangle Trade. It would seem they do not shy, nor gloss the uglier parts of their history.

Max, thanks for your comments re my remarks on skipping St. Paul's. I understand your reasons very well, and don't know what I was thinking when I wrote them!

I feel as you do, but never expressed these feelings as succinctly as did you - "...never skip a cathedral". My new motto, and possible epitaph, although there are several under consideration.

The National Portrait Gallery is also closed. It has plans to re-open at the end of June.

The York Minster is a stunning example of Gothic architecture, but St. Paul’s has charms of its own. I never tire of visiting the very moving American chapel, and we try to include a climb of the dome in every London visit as well. I have booked an apartment very near there for our September visit, specifically for that purpose.

If you're going to see the Tower of London and Westminster Abbey on the same day, I'd take a boat between the two.

The trip is now a fait accompli, and before I wrote up my report, I wanted to thank everyone in the thread for your assistance. Your experience clarified my thinking, allowed me to reset agenda items on the fly, and earn top marks from my wife on my trip planning. And she even got to meet Aidan Turner at the stage door.

Full report: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/trip-reports/york-and-london-march-3-11-2023