Britrail or point-to_point?

Our experience was that the pass worked for relatively long-distance trips - London to Bath (plus Heathrow Express), Oxford to Edinburgh, Edinburgh to York, etc. If some of your trips are shorter, commuter runs, as was our trip Bath to Oxford, then maybe not worth buying travel days for them. And a waste to use a day if only going to or from the airport, without an additional trip the same day.

For short trips, just buy walk up tix on day of travel.

Thanks, Markcw, for your prompt reply. I think we'll wait a while to see how much our routes go down in price before deciding Britrail or point-to-point. I like the 1/3-off deal point-to-point offers. Unless there's a giant difference in price, Britrail may win out, principally for the convenience. So I'll wait until mid-March to check again.

Is the reference to 1/3rd off tickets to buying railcards? If so note that are a number of different ones. You can get individual ones if you’re under 30 or over 60 but the best value for two is the TwoTogether card which as it says covers two travelling together. The advantage I’d that it costs £30 to cover both of you rather than £30 each.
That would mean you couldn’t use it on your trip to Norwich. But you can usually get Advance tickets for that trip for under £10 each way.

Thanks, John, for the info on rail travel. I'll keep an eye out for the discount for one person to travel to Norwich.

to Norwich from where? A day trip or will you return another day to your starting point or go somewhere else? Do you want an early start or travel after the morning peak, or weekend??

I plan to leave Liverpool Station in London on June 20, reaching Norwich in ca. two hours. This is a sort of pilgrimage to the cell next to St. Julian's Church where the anchoress Julian spent 30+ years in seclusion, praying, writing, advising people. I had no idea that the town has many more things to see (and no guidebooks even mention Julian.). Unfortunately, I will have just the one day to be there before returning to London. I think I can get a roundtrip ticket for about $25, a good deal. I am considering getting the four-day flexible Britrail ticket for my husband and myself, to cover the trips from London to Conwy, down to Brockenhurst/Milford-on-Sea, and back to Gatwick.

Thanks for your input, Nigel. I always enjoy reading your comments to us travelers.

I don't do dollars but I am sure that a $25 day return from Liverpool Lime Street is less than I would expect to pay. My phone tells me that $25 is only £20.51 today.

The normal Anytime fare on that route, good all day is around £123. If you wait to leave London until off-peak, from 9:30 the Single is £61.50 and the day return (on this route it is a period return good for 30 days) is £1 more, £62.50. That is what would be expected all over the country. Returns are usually only around £1 more than singles. These are walk up fares, they don't go down and (other than twice a year for price changes) don't go up.

If you are finding very cheap fares they will be Advance Singles. Advance tickets don't come in returns.

I looked about 3 weeks out and saw a very few Advance Singles in the range of £24, but that's just one way. There were a few £21 for the trip back. They aren't released many weeks ahead and aren't available yet for your dates.

Where did you find a return at $25?

Looking for mid March onwards there are advance singles for £10 each way standard class, £18 each way first class, on all trains ex London from 1st train to start of evening peak then £21/£33 even in the evening peak.
From Norwich advance singles start at £18 standard from as early as 0830, the £10 ones starting at 1130 then continuing until last service.

I checked with rome2rio and RailEurope, estimating the fares: If I left London Liverpool Street station at 8:30 a.m. and returned from Norwich ca 6:00 pm, the roundtrip fare would be around $25 plus booking fee of $8.45, making the total $33.45. But I am still thinking we will get the four-day flex Britrail pass for people over 65 and use it for the longer trips for my husband and myself.

wow - they really want a 34 percent booking fee?? Highway robbery.

Train companies sell all the available tickets, and charge a booking fee of ......zero.

If you want Britrail, and are happy with the cost - go for it.

When I was working on trains I saw many a one. It was also a signal to me to be sure they had all the info and hints which would help them enjoy the day. They were much rarer than tickets so were a pleasant change. I saw a couple from New Zealand over the years and a few from various other countries but at least 99 percent I ever saw were Americans using them. Don't remember if I ever saw a Canadian using one.

Rome2Rio has its uses (it's generally accurate as to whether you can get where you want to go by train or will need to use buses), but it is howlingly unreliable on fares, travel times and frequencies. Do not pay any attention to that type of information on Rome2Rio.com. Just keep clicking through the website to find the name of the transportation company you'll be using and go to its website. For the UK, I just use nationalrail.co.uk.

@sallytravels - apologies if you've seen this, but I have found The Man in Seat 61 website to be helpful with information on train travel in Britain: https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-britain.htm. (However, he seems to refer people with "overseas" credit cards to trainline, which I don't think is necessary. I just bought my UK Senior Railcard (at https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/), and a ticket on the LNER website, using my US credit card with no problems - and no extra booking fee.).

As others have said, I also usually start at the National Rail site when researching train trips: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/. There you will learn which train operating company or companies serve that route, and you can go buy tickets directly from the company that runs the journey you want.

I have in the past used BritRail passes, and don't regret it. You do pay for convenience and flexibility, and if you don't mind the price, then go for it. I would save the BritRail pass for longer journeys, and just buy walk up tickets for shorter or less expensive journeys.

Nigel - I quoted the c£20 ticket to Norwich because that’s what I paid when booking a ticket for the Saturday before Christmas to get to a football match. I remember seeing even cheaper Advance tickets a week or so before I bought.
As an aside, after booking a strike was announced for that day and I ended up having to drive, comparatively a pain. But we won!

but the canaries never win

Thanks, everyone, for your many useful tips, including the ones you gave to Shelley (App, etc.) . We now have plenty of helpful ideas for planning our rail journeys.

“but the Canaries never win”. I’m not a Canaries fan Roger! My team is Blackburn Rovers, who have now won twice in a few weeks at Carrow Road. We seem to have been instrumental in them changing their manager, after which they can’t stop winning!

What did you end up doing??

I am still searching. I think the "eight-to-twelve-weeks-before" is going to be more like eight weeks before Advance tickets will be available. We won't be in England until June 16. As I remarked before, unless the point-to-point rates are much less than Britrail, we will get the Britrail tickets. Thanks for asking.

When you go from Conwy to Brockenhurst are you intending to route via London (crossing from Euston to Waterloo) or to route via Birmingham, which would be one change at Birmingham. Via London would be much cheaper, but more changes.
If you route Birmingham that journey is what will probably swing the balance.
Do you have a detailed itinerary as to which days are which journeys?

We will leave Conwy on June 27 enroute to Brockenhurst and will probably take the train that changes in Birmingham.I think this journey is shorter than the one going clear to London, then back to Brockenhurst.

While these journeys are not available for booking we know the prices from nearer dates, so to allow your decision making to go ahead. For ease of reference these are fares before any railcard 34% discounts. These are also real fares, not those a split fares website will give you which do not always give the best fares to give themselves better commission

1. Gatwick to London- buy on the day to mitigate against airline delays
2. Norwich- already discussed
3. Canterbury- you should be able to get advance fares each way for around £15, or an open off peak period return is £45
4. Canterbury to Chester- an open buy on the day ticket is £98.90 including cross London transfer. For Canterbury to St Pancras see above, then walk down Euston Road. The full open single from Euston to Chester is £72.70. But an advance fare from Euston to Crewe is normally £10, then a buy on the day Crewe to Chester is £14.80.
5. Chester to Conwy is £21.80 buy on the day, or between £7 and £9 if booked in advance.
6. Conwy to Brockenhurst- leaving on the 1024 train you arrive 1 hour earlier if you route via London, as opposed to via Birmingham. Birmingham route is also a same platform change at Southampton. On the Birmingham route the full walk up fare is a huge £169.30, via London it is £110.20. There are effectively no middle of the day decent advance fares beyond Birmingham, so at best you will pay £22 Conwy to Birmingham, then around £90 Birmingham to Brockenhurst. On the London route the best through advance fares to London are around £77, but as you have to change at Chester and Crewe anyway on the 1024 this can be reduced to around £20 by advance fares Conwy to Crewe, and Crewe to Euston, then £16 Waterloo to Brockenhurst, so a huge saving
7. Brockenhurst to Gatwick- the journey planners route you via a change at Clapham Junction as that is the fastest route. A walk up fare is £25, advance fares can bring this down to £16. However what the planners do not tell you is that you can go from Brockenhurst to Southampton, then same platform change for a through train to Gatwick along the coast taking 2 hours. The walk up fare is the same, but advance fares Brock to SA and SA-LGW can bring this down to about £17.

So hopefully this is what you need to guide your decision making.

Thank you for your detailed information on rail fares. Hopefully, the current advance fares will pop up in the next few weeks; and we can make our decisions and get our tickets.

I think the easiest, fastest and cheapest way is to go from Conwy 1 mile or so east to Llandudno Junction by bus or taxi. At 9.37am the Holyhead to London (Euston) express calls at Llandudno Junction (LLJ). Use that and from Euston (arr 12.35) take the Northern Line underground (southbound) to Waterloo (dep 13.10) and then direct train to Brokenhurst to arrive at 15.04.
I have just checked for Tuesday 23 May (which has the advance fares loaded) and you could buy a ticket LLJ > WAT (includes underground) for £31 plus WAT > Brockenhurst for £6.75 - all Railcard prices applied. That’s £37.75 each for the total trip which takes 5 hours 27 minutes.
Go to the following site and put in for your departure from LLJ at 9.30am to Brock and it will show you the total timings for the journey
but at a higher fare - without the split at London. I suggest you keep going back to this site until the date you want gives the fares (or near) that I have found for May 23rd. Of course, you could always go via Birmingham and depart from Conwy but it will be dearer than my suggestion - if you can put up with the underground.https://www.nationalrail.co.uk

I would splash out from Waterloo for first class- the bigger seat and quieter for another £4.40.

The 1024 from Conwy was chosen specifically because that train is the one where you can easily see the comparative timings, via Chester, for both routes.

On the 0937 from Llandudno Junction you could start at Conwy at 0914 with a separate ticket for £2.15 each, 19 minute same platform change at Llandudno Junction.

Or through from Conwy at 0914 to Crewe, then changing onto a slower train at Crewe, and using your railcard registered Oyster for the tube fare, you can get Conwy to Waterloo for £28.30, on the day given.

Note that 1310 is the arrival time at Waterloo in the above example. The departure time is 1335.

I don't know why people bothered to campaign to re-instate Conwy station, given how often some contributors are constantly trying to discourage people from using the station.

It is amazing how cheap some train fares can be in the UK- I booked a journey last night from the Lake District to London Euston for under £15 on a railcard, with a change at Crewe. That is rock bottom price, for a journey in 4 weeks time.
That is a fare none of the split ticketing websites, including that propounded by Man in Seat 61, can get close to meeting.

Thank you, isn31C and James, for your detailed and helpful information. I look forward to receiving the official news of the Advance sales.

Hello and thank you Isn31c and Nigel for sharing your rail travel knowledge.

Regarding the journey between Conwy and Brockenhurst- The proposed route via Birmingham is currently affected by a line closure due to a bridge failure south of Oxford. So the train service is currently split with a replacement bus service between Oxford and Didcot- that service has limited capacity.
So what few advance fares there are on that route are presently withdrawn.
The re-opening date is currently 10 June, but that may become pushed out further as things develop.
So for your planning purposes it is best to assume that you will be travelling on the via London route.
Today you would struggle on that route as well because London Waterloo station is almost closed all day, due to a signalling problem.
Although that is rare for the Waterloo route to be closed on a weekday it is good to know that if that occurred you would go to London Victoria (in place of Waterloo) and catch a direct train to Southampton, changing there for Brockenhurst.
The Victoria to Southampton train travels on a totally different route, leaves at 35 minutes past each hour- and takes 2 1/2 hours- the journey time is why it is never normally given as a suitable route.
But best to know your alternatives if the worst case happened. Your ticket would be automatically valid.

Wow! such complications! Thank you for this information. I have been checking for fares almost every day and have continued to notice the Avanti going from Canterbury to Chester has nothing for weekends in late June, when we must leave Canterbury (May 24). We definitely will be going the Conwy-London-Southhampton-Brockenhurst route on June 27. As complicated as this all is, I find it an interesting challenge--almost entertaining!

The Avanti Tickets for 24 June are not going to be released until at least 3 May so you can relax for 3 weeks until then. No one else can book anything on Avanti until then, so you won't be at the back of the queue or anything. It's a Saturday so Network Rail need to make their mind up as to what Engineering work they want to do that weekend- that's the cause of the delay.

Dear isn31c

What a relief! Now I can wait til May 3 and hope to be able to book tickets from Canterbury to Chester and maybe from Conwy to Brockenhurst. Thank you so much!

Another travel question: I notice that the roundtrip rail charge from London to Norwich has been ca £66 lately. Should I expect it to remain the same for Tuesday, June 22; or, since there is major disruption right now at Liverpool Station, maybe I should just take the bus to Norwich?

That fare of £66 is now fixed until next Spring so can't change.
Not sure what disruption there has been at Liverpool Street but there is no planned engineering work showing at Liverpool Street anytime between now and June, and that's a weekday so it is very unlikely disruptive engineering would be happening.
The problem with the bus is that it takes a while.
The morning buses are indirect via Stansted and take 5 hours, the afternoon direct ones still take 3 hours. If there was disruption on the railway Greater Anglia would bus you over the affected section, and it would be a whole lot faster.
In fact it would still be far faster (a 2 1/2 hour overall journey) than the NatEx coach to go Kings Cross to Cambridge North (or Cambridge) on the fast train, then Cambridge/CN to Norwich on Greater Anglia (hourly) or at the other half hour Kings Cross to Ely on the Kings Lynn fast train, then East Midlands Railway to Norwich

Sally,
The timetables for London to Norwich on 22 June are now published, and there is no engineering work that day, so no need to think about taking the bus.
I am also travelling on Avanti on the weekend of 24 to 25 June, so I am watching timetable release closely, still scheduled for this Wednesday -3 May

Thank you for the info on the rail from London to Norwich and the Avanti line to North Wales. I’m also eagerly watching for the Advance sales to appear on May 3. How many days past May 3 do you reckon we should wait to get the best deal?

I'm aiming for that day or Thursday, as I've got a connection either side of the Avanti train. Once I have Avanti sorted the rest can be scheduled round it. Usually I do 3 to 4 weeks out, but this one is harder.

Sally travels-
Tickets are now released for 24 June Canterbury to Chester- advance fares at £52.40 (which includes the tube from St Pancras to Euston), if you don't want to walk down Euston Road) are good value. Better than booking in 2 parts and then paying on Oyster for tube, anyway.
It's a change at Crewe as suggested earlier. Trains are frequent enough from Crewe to Chester (3 an hour) that you don't need to worry about missing the connection if Avanti are late.
Some of the trains Crewe to Chester are actually Avanti as they are running a North Wales shuttle from Crewe, rather than through from Euston.